Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Post by ThreeVows »

Leo Rivers wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:14 am It's what I'm doing. I BELIIEVE but don't know if the Dasabhumica is in volume 2. A
Yes, chapter 26.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

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Zhen Li wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:53 am It doesn't bode well when the treatise on translation is itself translated into incomprehensible English. I don't know who they are, but I hope they are not involved in translation. I feel that we should not treat translation as an intellectual or theoretical exercise.
I'm quoting you just so you see it, not because it's relevant to this particular comment of yours.

Do you (or anyone) happen to know what exactly the differences are between this version and Cleary's, in terms of source?

I've heard some vague things about how Cleary took certain parts from one edition and other from another, and of course this one says it's the first complete translation although his is pretty darn long... Basically any information about clarifying the difference between this and Cleary's would be of interest. Thanks.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Leo Rivers
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Post by Leo Rivers »

Cleary used the Sanskirt editions of the 10 Stages Sutra and Flower Array Sutra for those parts of the whole Avatamsaka translation he, Cleary, promoted as entirely a translation from the Chinese.

This is 30+/- of the whole sutra!

This is a huge misleading assertion. AND with no explaination.

This is explained in detail in the Translator's Intro in vol one of the three vol Kalavinka set.
Last edited by Leo Rivers on Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ThreeVows
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

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Leo Rivers wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:36 pm Cleary used the Sanskirt edition of the 10 Stages and Flower Array sutras for the parts of a Avatamsaka translation he, Cleary, promoted as a translation from the Chinese.

This is 30+- of the whole sutra!

This is a huge misleading assertion.

This is explained in detail in the translator's intro in vol one of the three vol Kalavinka set.
Thanks. Do you know qualitatively how different the Chinese version is from the Sanskrit in terms of content? That is to say, in terms of sort of the message/content of the Sutra(s) are the different versions significantly different? Do you know why Cleary did that?
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

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Do you know qualitatively how different the Chinese version is from the Sanskrit in terms of content? That is to say, in terms of sort of the message/content of the Sutra(s) are the different versions significantly different?
One would need to know Chinese and Sanskrit and have read what is 2000 pages of English to answer that. But take heart. There are some people on this board who are at that level. I hold my tongue and bow to them while backing out of the room. :hi:
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

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Leo Rivers wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:32 pm
Do you know qualitatively how different the Chinese version is from the Sanskrit in terms of content? That is to say, in terms of sort of the message/content of the Sutra(s) are the different versions significantly different?
One would need to know Chinese and Sanskrit and have read what is 2000 pages of English to answer that. But take heart. There are some people on this board who are at that level. I hold my tongue and bow to them while backing out of the room. :hi:
Saw this comment on reddit about it, if it's of interest:

"The Sanskrit versions of Chapter 26 and 39 that Cleary worked from apaprently differ considerably from the earlier Siksananda versions, in structure and narrative. And, as far as I'm aware, actually come from versions of the Dasabhumika and Gandavyuha that circulated independently from the Avatamsaka, so we're uncertain if these versions actually correspond to any complete copy.

Although my understanding is that the Sanskrit standalone versions do correspond more closely to the Tibetan version, and represent later recensions. The Siksananda versions are older by some centuries, so my reckoning (without knowing any more details than this) is that the Sanskrit and Tibetan versions contain additional embellishments, and more episodes and events than the earlier version."
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Post by Leo Rivers »

That seems to be the correct anticipation.
Chinese translations are earlier 5th-6th C and reflect earlier less corrupt and maaaaaybee more educated insight while later Sanskrit versions have more additions yet maaaybe more accumulated error.

Note: the famous Prayer of Samantabhadra isn't part of older translations.

I think the point is to get a representitive of a time and place in context. What Cleary did was to make a mongrel version to "get it out there". Okay.... but why dissembal [lie]?

He has done so much he is a lotsawa. And it is too late to ask him.
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Post by Norwegian »

Any idea of how the new translation presents the names of Bodhisattvas? English? Sanskrit?

In Cleary's, every single name was translated to English, along with his "enlightening being" which did not make for smooth reading...
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

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Dharmamitra uses Sanskrit wherever possible. I think some names are in English when the Sanskrit isn’t clear, but nothing as dramatic as Cleary.
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

All three volumes are officially on Amazon:

Volume 1:


Volume 2:


Volume 3:


$78 for the entire set, seem pretty reasonable for a work this large.
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Re: Any word on Bhikshu Dharmamitra's Avatamsaka?

Post by Leo Rivers »

I got the first 2 now and I believe that just the way they released the Intro to the Mahasamgraha onto the Internet as a pdf to orient prospective buyers Kalavinka should release the Translater's Introduction contained at the start of Vol. One of the set. It answers most of the questions we've been asking here.
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