World Cup 2022

[DNS]

DNS, it sounds like you'd enjoy Aussie Rules football or Gaelic football :thumbs-up:

Here in the U.S., the sports channels never show Aussie Rules or Gaelic. I just looked them up and oh wow, it's almost exactly what I was proposing with two sets of points based on where the ball is kicked through.

One point over and 3 points if inside (Gaelic football)
One point for a behind and 6 points for inside (Aussie football)

[Norwegian]

Trying to give an analysis of the perceived quality of football through probability theory is definitely peak STEM behavior. Do you use probability theory to determine how good a movie is also? What about music? Or literature? Or do you draw the line somewhere?

As for the suggestions shared here on how football can be changed "for the better", they're like someone who talks about how they really enjoys sushi, except sushi could be so much better if only you replaced the seafood with burger meat and buns, and the rice with cheese and onions.

This is some good Dharmawheel...

Yes! Ted Lasso is so good. People with even a microscopic interest in football, past or present, should watch it. And those with no interest in football should also watch it, because it's just really fun.

[Kai lord]

Meanwhile, in the popular Chinese football parody, you have ex monks using their martial arts in a football game.

[DNS]

Portugal 3
Ghana 2

Now that was a good match, by American standards. A goal is roughly equivalent to a touchdown in NFL, so with the XPs that would be equivalent to an NFL score of 21-14.

[Archie2009]

Portugal 3
Ghana 2

Now that was a good match, by American standards. A goal is roughly equivalent to a touchdown in NFL, so with the XPs that would be equivalent to an NFL score of 21-14.

Part of a World Cup/Euros tournament is the occasional healthy (?) dose of Schadenfreude. This aspect of the game might be harder to grasp for an outsider. It's not just about goals.

[Norwegian]

This goal is a work of art:

[Giovanni]

There is a lot of excitement about Brazil around here. After two bad World Cups there is hope that this present team will show the skills that have often made them so wonderful to watch.

[Kai lord]

England fans go to the World Cup in the middle east dressed as crusaders

[Archie2009]

England fans go to the World Cup in the middle east dressed as crusaders

That's what happens when your history education is restricted to Henry VIII, WWII, and a completely jingoistic media landscape.

[Drenpa]

Japan beats Germany!

What if Germany and Argentina don't advance? That's possible, with both teams currently at 0 points.

Then it will just prove again - and at the highest level of the game - my long-held conviction that soccer is a poorly-designed game. Why? Because scores are so low (always!) that results have a large random component.
This comes from basic probability theory. It doesn't matter which game you're playing, a score like 21-14 shows one side is pretty consistently better than the other. A score like 210-140 proves it more strongly. But a score like 3-2 is very poor evidence of skill, and 0-0 is no evidence at all.


Kim

It's not necessarily about the score. The issue with Soccer and American Football is that championships are decided by a single game. Anything, literally anything, can happen in a single game. Luck can play a huge factor. But not in a best of 7 series.

Show me a 7 game series in either Baseball, Hoops, or the greatest sport of allTM, Hockey, where the win is attributable to luck.

Yankee Football can totally be excusedfor having it all come down to a single game. It's a brutal sport on par with hockey, except they're not moving as fast. The rate of injury and attrition is horrific. All out war. And you have what, a 53 player roster? So by the end of a 7 game series you might be playing 3rd string everything.

There's no excuse for it in Soccer at all. The wear and tear on the body (in spite of all the flopping around & drama) is minimal, and the games only go for 90 minutes running time. The world cup of Soccer and all major playoffs should definitely be decided through a 7 game series, and then the best team would win. Period. Making soccer championships best of 7 is the way to go, at least for the finals.

Soccr vs hockey "hits". If you don't watch anything else in the vid, scroll to the end and see Ovi's reaction after taking 6oz of vulcanized rubber to the chops.

[KeithA]

Then it will just prove again - and at the highest level of the game - my long-held conviction that soccer is a poorly-designed game. Why? Because scores are so low (always!) that results have a large random component.
This comes from basic probability theory. It doesn't matter which game you're playing, a score like 21-14 shows one side is pretty consistently better than the other. A score like 210-140 proves it more strongly. But a score like 3-2 is very poor evidence of skill, and 0-0 is no evidence at all.


Kim

The rules aren’t designed to always deliver a win for the “best” team. They are designed to always allow an upset thereby increasing supporter engagement and money for the clubs/owners. Games that allow perfect forecasts of the results are badly designed imo, because it makes them boring.

The NFL (American football) and NBA (basketball) have high scoring, but there are still upset results and good competitive games; it's not a perfect forecast scenario. Even LeBron James sometimes loses some games and didn't even make the playoffs this year (Los Angeles Lakers).

I have some ideas for making soccer with higher scoring, but the soccer-purists will never go for some radical changes. The sport has been around too long the way it is.

Low scoring is a feature...not a defect. Whenever leagues try to increase scoring, the game suffers. The NFL is rigged to promote scoring. It's pretty much unwatchable.

[Drenpa]

It's pretty much unwatchable.

The 17 million regular viewers who ensure the NFL absolutely dominates sports viewership weekly, 100 million domestic viewers tuning in to the super bowl and another 100 million globally say otherwise.

[DNS]

Soccr vs hockey "hits". If you don't watch anything else in the vid, scroll to the end and see Ovi's reaction after taking 6oz of vulcanized rubber to the chops.

I gotta admit, those hockey players sure are tough. I don't watch much hockey, but when I do, I'm amazed at the hits they take and then they just shake it off and continue playing. Soccer players are very fragile or good actors (the latter of course).

[DNS]

Chess GM Anish Giri has noticed the many draws in soccer with a tweet today.

[Kim O'Hara]

What if Germany and Argentina don't advance? That's possible, with both teams currently at 0 points.

Then it will just prove again - and at the highest level of the game - my long-held conviction that soccer is a poorly-designed game. Why? Because scores are so low (always!) that results have a large random component.
This comes from basic probability theory. It doesn't matter which game you're playing, a score like 21-14 shows one side is pretty consistently better than the other. A score like 210-140 proves it more strongly. But a score like 3-2 is very poor evidence of skill, and 0-0 is no evidence at all.


Kim

It's not necessarily about the score. The issue with Soccer and American Football is that championships are decided by a single game. Anything, literally anything, can happen in a single game. Luck can play a huge factor. But not in a best of 7 series.

Show me a 7 game series in either Baseball, Hoops, or the greatest sport of allTM, Hockey, where the win is attributable to luck. ...

That's correct but it's basically an extension of my argument.
A single game with a 300-200 scoreline shows more consistent skill and less (potential) luck than one with a 3-2 scoreline. A best-of-seven series with scorelines of 3-2, 2-3, 3-1, 2-2 (etc) has been decided by around 30 points, not 5, so luck plays a much smaller part.
In table tennis a match is best-of-five or best-of-seven games, and each game is to 11 points except that if it reaches 10-10 they play until one player has a two-point advantage. That makes a match somewhere between 50 and 150 points, and again luck plays a very small part.


Kim

[Dhammanando]

DNS, it sounds like you'd enjoy Aussie Rules football or Gaelic football :thumbs-up:

Or the Florentine sport of calcio storico.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcio_Fiorentino

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Or the even more anarchic English one, Royal Shrovetide Football.

The Royal Shrovetide Football Match is a "medieval football" game played annually on Shrove Tuesday and Ash Wednesday in the town of Ashbourne in Derbyshire, England. Shrovetide ball games have been played in England since at least the 12th century from the reign of Henry II (1154–89). The Ashbourne game also known as "hugball" has been played from at least c.1667 although the exact origins of the game are unknown due to a fire at the Royal Shrovetide Committee office in the 1890s which destroyed the earliest records

One of the most popular origin theories suggests the macabre notion that the 'ball' was originally a severed head tossed into the waiting crowd following an execution. Although this may have happened, it is more likely that games such as the Winchelsea Streete Game, reputedly played during the Hundred Years' War with France, were adaptations of an original ball game intended to show contempt for the enemy.

[...]

There are very few rules in existence. The main ones are:

Committing murder or manslaughter is prohibited. Unnecessary violence is frowned upon.
The ball may not be carried in a motorised vehicle.
The ball may not be hidden in a bag, coat or rucksack, etc.
Cemeteries, churchyards and the town memorial gardens are strictly out of bounds.
Playing after 10 pm is forbidden.
To score a goal the ball must be tapped 3 times in the area of the goal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Shrovetide_Football

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[DNS]

DNS, it sounds like you'd enjoy Aussie Rules football or Gaelic football :thumbs-up:

Or the Florentine sport of calcio storico.

Or the even more anarchic English one, Royal Shrovetide Football.

Hi Bhante,

I was looking for more offense, more scoring, not more violence.

[Dhammanando]

I was looking for more offense, more scoring, not more violence.

Oh, ok. Best stick to Gaelic and Aussie Rules then.


By the way, there's a Vietnamese-born Englishman called Ninh Ly who has a great YouTube channel where he gives very clear introductions to dozens of different sports for those unfamiliar with them.

Gaelic football
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Aussie Rules
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My favourite is this one, where he manages to explain the difference between rugby league and rugby union in just five minutes.
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[DNS]

I was looking for more offense, more scoring, not more violence.

Oh, ok. Best stick to Gaelic and Aussie Rules then.


By the way, there's a Vietnamese-born Englishman called Ninh Ly who has a great YouTube channel where he gives very clear introductions to dozens of different sports for those unfamiliar with them.

Those look like pretty good sports, never had the chance to play them when I was young, as in America the focus is all on American-style football, baseball, and basketball. During my time in Germany, I did have the chance to play some soccer and liked it.

They are drastically different from soccer since all involve picking the ball up and carrying it. I agree with norwegian that this would be like trying to change sushi to a burger. However, small changes would be like adding some delicious spice like wasabi to the sushi.

But for soccer purists, don't worry, I don't have the power to change the sport. Apparently the goal size has never changed, nor evolved; it's always been 8 yards wide, so all the more reason, it won't change. And I know, it would also mess up all the records from the last 150 years or so.

[Giovanni]

But it’s not just tradition DNS.
If commentators and cameramen concentrated far more than they do on clever midfield “generals” feeding the forwards and falling back into defence, solid fullback clearing the ball from goalmouth and athletic goalkeepers performing extraordinary feats to stop the ball then televised games would be more like attending an actual football game. Where once the bias is removed the part played by the whole team becomes an enjoyable experience. And is why a 0-0 draw can be highly enjoyable to a football afficiando
Football is not math, although it can be like chess in tactics. It is 22 players not just forwards. Defence is as important and as enjoyable as attack.