Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:45 pm Its all about receiving and holding the ten precepts which the Theravadins argue is essential for sustaining the lives of Arahants.
Is a layperson allowed to receive the ten precepts? I'm no vinaya expert to make that judgement.
But historically speaking, I have yet to read about an Arahant who lived long while remained as a layperson.
As far as I know, a lay person could take the 10 precepts, but in general, those that want to engage in serious monk-like practice, take 8 precepts. The 8 precepts are about the same as the 10 with the exception that money is still used in their day-to-day activities.

It makes sense (imo) that a lay person can attain enlightenment, but once they do, they ordain. The lay life involves trade and numerous activities that an arahant wouldn't be interested in, including negotiations, trade, hiring, firing, or dealing with bad bosses, bad co-workers, etc.

On the plus side of this, is that any lay person who claims full enlightenment, we can dismiss as delusional or as overestimating their attainments.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:45 pmIts all about receiving and holding the ten precepts which the Theravadins argue is essential for sustaining the lives of Arahants.
The only Theravadin text that addresses this subject, the Milindapañha, doesn't say anything about the ten precepts. Rather, it stipulates the "state of a monk" (bhikkhu-bhūmi) as the thing that allows an arahat to stay alive. This would of course entail more than just the ten precepts. Nāgasena gives three similes to illustrate why an arahant can't remain a householder, but to me at least they don't really make the reason clear at all.

These are the two dialogues in which the claim is made:
The Precedence of the Dharma

[...]

‘And moreover, O king, you may know by this fact the greatness and the peerless glory of the condition of the bhikkhus—that if a layman, a disciple of the faith, who has entered upon the excellent way, should attain to the realisation of arahatship, one of two results must happen to him, and there is no other—he must either die away on that very day, or take upon himself the condition of a bhikkhu. For immovable, O king, is that state of renunciation, glorious, and most exalted—I mean the condition of being a member of the Order!’

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mil5.3.1
The Lay Arahat

‘Venerable Nāgasena, your people say:

“Whosoever has attained, as a layman, to arahatship, one of two conditions are possible to him, and no other—either that very day he enters the Order, or he dies away, for beyond that day he cannot last.”

‘Now if, Nāgasena, he could not, on that day, procure a teacher or preceptor, or a bowl and set of robes, would he then, being an arahat, admit himself, or would he live over the day, or would some other arahat suddenly appear by the power of iddhi and admit him, or would he die away?’

‘He could not, O king, because he is an arahat, admit himself. For any one admitting himself to The Order is guilty of theft. And he could not last beyond that day. Whether another arahat should happen, or not, to arrive, on that very day would he die away.’

‘Then, Nāgasena, by whatever means attained, the holy condition of arahatship is thereby also lost, for destruction of life is involved in it.’

‘It is the condition of laymanship which is at fault, O king. In that faulty condition, and by reason of the weakness of the condition itself, the layman who, as such, has attained to arahatship must either, that very day, enter the Order or die away. That is not the fault of arahatship, O king. It is laymanship that is at fault, through not being strong enough.

‘Just, O king, as food, that guards the growth and protects the life of all beings, will, through indigestion, take away the life of one whose stomach is unequal to it, whose internal fire is low and weak—just so if a layman attains arahatship when in that condition unequal to it, then by reason of the weakness of the condition he must, that very day, either enter the Order or die away.

‘Or just, O king, as a tiny blade of grass when a heavy rock is placed upon it will, through its weakness, break off and give way—just so when a layman attains arahatship, then, unable to support arahatship in that condition, he must, that very day, either enter the Order or die away.

‘Or just, O king, as a poor weak fellow of low birth and little ability, if he came into possession of a great and mighty kingdom, would be unable to support the dignity of it —just so if a layman attains to arahatship, then is he unable, in that condition, to support it. And that is the reason why he must, on that very day, either enter the Order or die away.’

‘Very good, Nāgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.’

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mil6.2.2
Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:45 pmIs a layperson allowed to receive the ten precepts? I'm no vinaya expert to make that judgement.
Yes, you could, though you wouldn't count as a sāmaṇera or sāmaṇerī. You would be like the mae chees of Thailand, some of whom take ten rather than eight precepts, or the dasasīlamātās of Sri Lanka, all of whom take ten. From a Vinaya point of view both groups count as laywomen even though their sīla is like a sāmaṇerī's.
Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:45 pmBut historically speaking, I have yet to read about an Arahant who lived long while remained as a layperson.
Certainly there are none in the Pali suttas, where every lay arahant either goes forth the same day or gets gored to death by a bull (or a demon disguised as a bull, according to the commentaries) while searching for robes and a bowl.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

That was my understanding too from my Preceptor when I was a monk

Theravada requires intense renunciation lay life is difficult for intensive Theravadan practice that’s why there’s lots of monasteries
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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Apart from the Theravada view of arhats there's also the Mahayana version, in particular the popular image of arhats in East Asia as a bit mundane, sometimes even vulgar saints like Ji Gong.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by Kai lord »

Dhammanando wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:10 pm
Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:45 pmIts all about receiving and holding the ten precepts which the Theravadins argue is essential for sustaining the lives of Arahants.
The only Theravadin text that addresses this subject, the Milindapañha, doesn't say anything about the ten precepts. Rather, it stipulates the "state of a monk" (bhikkhu-bhūmi) as the thing that allows an arahat to stay alive. This would of course entail more than just the ten precepts. Nāgasena gives three similes to illustrate why an arahant can't remain a householder, but to me at least they don't really make the reason clear at all.
Indeed sutta does not mention it at all, the idea that ten precepts might be sufficient to keep an Arahant alive, is largely inferred from the biography of Sīvali Mahāthera who lived the first year of his Arahanthood as a Samanera.

However, like you said, having ten precepts is apparently not enough to make a layperson, a Samanera.
On the seventh day, Venerable Sāriputta, the Captain of the Dhamma, had a conversation with the boy. While doing so the Venerable asked: “Sīvali, is it not befitting for you to become a monk after suffering all the trouble of such nature?” “Venerable Sir, if only I get permission from my parents, I would like to become a monk,” the boy answered. Seeing her son conversing with the Venerable, Sealy’s mother thought: “How is it? My son was speaking with the Venerable who is the Dhamma Captain?” So she joyfully approached the Venerable and asked him what they were talking about. The Venerable said: “He talked to me about the misery caused by his stay in the mother’s womb and promised me that he would live an ascetic life provided he gets permission from both parents.” The Princess then gave her permission replying: “Very well, Venerable Sir, kindly make him a sāmaṇera.

The Venerable then took the boy Sīvali to the monastery and when he was making him a sāmaṇera after giving him the meditation subject of taca-pañcaka (the five fold material aggregate with the skin as the fifth), he said: “You do not need any other exhortation to follow. Just remember your pains that you had suffered for seven years.” “Giving ordination to me is your duty, Venerable Sir. Let the reflection on the Dhamma be mine. I shall meditate on whatever I could recollect.”

The moment the shaving of hair for the first round was done, Sāmaṇera Sīvali was established in sotāpatti-phala, the moment the shaving for the second round of hair was done, he was established in sakadāgāmī-phala, the moment the shaving for the third round was done, he was established in anāgāmī-phala and as soon as the shaving was completed, he attained arahatship. (The completion of the hair-shaving and the relation of arahatship took place almost simultaneously.)

Since the day Sīvali was ordained a sāmaṇera, the four requisites, namely, clothing, food, dwelling and medicine became increasingly available to the Sangha whenever needed. The story of such happenings to Sāmaṇera Sīvali started in the town of Kundikā.
Here's the additional information for readers who want to learn about Samanera
novice monk(s) Whereas a bhikkhu is a fully ordained monk who follows 227 precepts, a samanera is a 10 precept novice (who nevertheless wears the same ochre?coloured robes as the bhikkhus). In Thailand, the samanera stage is often reserved for those too young for full ordination.
Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:45 pmIs a layperson allowed to receive the ten precepts? I'm no vinaya expert to make that judgement.
Yes, you could, though you wouldn't count as a sāmaṇera or sāmaṇerī. You would be like the mae chees of Thailand, some of whom take ten rather than eight precepts, or the dasasīlamātās of Sri Lanka, all of whom take ten. From a Vinaya point of view both groups count as laywomen even though their sīla is like a sāmaṇerī's.
Thanks, bante, for clarifying. :namaste:
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by Malcolm »

krodha wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 2:56 am The arhathood claim is whatever, but in terms of just insight in general, I’ve heard this guy has some degree of credibility.
If one is into bodybuilding.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

This Frank Wang?
https://frankyang.wtf

HahahahaHahahahaHahahaha

Is he an arahat?
Send $100 to
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PO Box 69. Total, BS

…and I’ll tell you.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:53 am This Frank Wang?
https://frankyang.wtf
One quality he definitely possesses, judging by the website, is a very punchable face.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What I find most interesting from all of this
(and maybe it comes from a position of “look at the mind that’s looking”) is that when someone claims to be “enlightened” people will respond with “really? Is it true?”

I guess this phenomenon interests me because over and over again, people step up and claim to be enlightened masters or reincarnated this or that, and maybe it’s the desire that meditators have to believe, or maybe it’s simply how slick the ‘enlightened’ person’s promotional efforts are, but over and over again, there’s Nepal’s ‘Buddha Boy’ and ‘Zen Master Rama’ and ‘Dorje Chang III’ , countless fake ‘swamis’ and now this Frank Wang guy.

The thing is, it’s extremely easy, if one wants to put effort into it, to pass oneself off as a realized being. All you really need is some background knowledge, you need to know the vocabulary, you need to know how to say the things that make the listener sit up and think, “is that guy talking about me?” And you need something that passes for credibility, which can be anything from a well-designed website to Buddhist monk robes purchased off the internet. And usually, some kind of gimmick is useful but not required.

You don’t need to perform any miracles. Those will automatically appear in the minds of people you have convinced. And the more deeply convinced they are, the more amazing your imagined miracles will seem. It’s truly a self-oiling machine.

But aside from all that, I think what’s interesting (worth exploring?) it’s the mind that is attracted, like a moth to a flame, to anyone who claims attainments. Buddhist teachings ask us to examine our grasping. This is probably a good place to begin.

The flip side of this, is that if you don’t leave open the option of “maybe it’s true!” then you will be guilty of being close-minded. Yet, not-wanting that, and clinging to the identity of being an open-minded type of individual is also self-grasping. I think perhaps it is this type of self-grasping which creates the runway for the self-proclaimed ‘masters’ to land on in the first place. The more we want to see a Buddha, the more likely one will seem to appear, even if it isn’t real.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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Meh I think maybe you’re making it too complicated. Social media spiritual grifterism is everywhere these days.
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 1:16 pmThe more we want to see a Buddha, the more likely one will seem to appear, even if it isn’t real.
'Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of placing faith in an individual. What five? The individual to whom a person is devoted falls into an offense such that the Saṅgha suspends them. ... the Saṅgha makes them sit at the end of the line. ... Furthermore, the individual to whom a person is devoted departs for another region … disrobes … passes away.'.
(Puggalappasādasutta)

'Not seeing the teaching, they do not see me. ... Seeing the teaching, they see me.'
(Saṅghāṭikaṇṇasutta; cf. Vakkalisutta)

'Therefore do not rely on individuals,
But rely upon the Dharma.
Freedom comes from the genuine path that is taught,
Not from the one who teaches it.

When the teachings are well presented,
It does not matter what the speaker is like.
Even the bliss-gone buddhas themselves
Appear as butchers and such like to train disciples.

If he contradicts the Mahāyāna and so on,
Then however eloquent a speaker may seem,
He will bring you no real benefit,
Like a demon assuming Buddha’s form.'

(The Sword of Wisdom for Thoroughly Ascertaining Reality by Mipham Rinpoche, v 63-65)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by xabir »

Vajrabimba wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:50 am There is a young fellow called Frank Yang who has made a certain amount of noise about having attained arhatship but his claims have struck some with skepticism. For example he makes a show of being very fond of leather Nike Air Jordan shoes and all this other kind of profane, nonspiritual stuff. You can find him at "Being Frank Yang" on Instagram and on Youtube as Fran Yang aka "Infinite Brah" also known as "The Human Acid Trip". Nobody but Buddha or another omniscient could know if his claims are true or not but on the surface they seem hard to believe.
The issue is that he is following Daniel M. Ingram's map, where stream entry, perhaps following Mahasi explanations, is defined as a momentary blip into oblivion, and then arahatship is defined in much the same way Frank defined it. In an interview a year ago or so he said Daniel's book is the only dharma book he ever read (not sure if that's changed -- it was in a youtube interview with Daniel M. Ingram and the interviewer in it, and Daniel laughed when Frank said that).

I find this post a good critique of Daniel's map (for example, Daniel's definition of stream entry and arahatship does not accord with the pali suttas):
The very pulsing of dependent origination
Is the primordial face of the Tathāgata.
Like blood and veins and heart
- The two truths meet everywhere.

- André A. Pais
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by xabir »

xabir wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:28 pm
And finally if one wants to check whether someone is a true arahant, one should go by Buddha's criterias and checklists here https://suttacentral.net/mn112/en/sujato . The Buddha clearly laid out how one can determine and test whether someone is an arahant.
The very pulsing of dependent origination
Is the primordial face of the Tathāgata.
Like blood and veins and heart
- The two truths meet everywhere.

- André A. Pais
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Re: Is Frank Yang an arhat?

Post by DNS »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:53 am This Frank Wang?
https://frankyang.wtf

HahahahaHahahahaHahahaha
WTF domain, perhaps appropriate. :D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.wtf
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