So is nembutsu a practice or not?

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Wannabuddha
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So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Wannabuddha »

I'm still not sure. I've seen some people say the only practice in Shin is deep listening, and nembutsu is purely an expression of gratitude. But I've also heard that the usual way to progress is by starting out with self-power nembutsu, doing it frequently, and allowing it to develop naturally into the kind of nembutsu which is an expression of gratitude. That sounds to me like a kind of practice. Also, if nembutsu is purely an expression of gratitude, why should a person who has yet to receive shinjin do it at all?
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Zhen Li
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Zhen Li »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:04 pm I'm still not sure. I've seen some people say the only practice in Shin is deep listening, and nembutsu is purely an expression of gratitude. But I've also heard that the usual way to progress is by starting out with self-power nembutsu, doing it frequently, and allowing it to develop naturally into the kind of nembutsu which is an expression of gratitude. That sounds to me like a kind of practice. Also, if nembutsu is purely an expression of gratitude, why should a person who has yet to receive shinjin do it at all?
You have the right idea. Although it is not necessarily that self-power Nembutsu is what "develops." It is rather than self-power Nembutsu and other-power Nembutsu are different things, but one is uttered before/without reception of Shinjin, and the other is uttered after reception of Shinjin.

Before receiving Shinjin, we recite (or contemplate) Nembutsu to bring us to the point where we recieve Shinjin. As Shinran writes:
Hymns on the Pure Land, 66 wrote:"Those who recite the Nembutsu with self-power, whether in a meditative or non-meditative way,
Having recourse to the vow of accomplishing salvation (the 20th vow),
Will spontaneously, even without being taught,
Turn into the gate of True Suchness (the 18th vow).
In other words, we usually start on the Pure Land path in a self-power way. But our turning to receive Shinjin and to rely on Other Power solely is something that occurs spontaneously. Although we create the receptiveness to it, we do not actively give rise to Shinjin. Therefore this faith is not the product of self power.

If you open your curtains, you actively open them. But the sunlight would be shining through regardless of whether you open them or not. You do not create the sunlight by your own power. It is that sunlight (Shinjin) that brings about birth in the fulfilled land of Nirvāṇa.

Again, Shinran writes:
Hymns on the Three Dharma Ages, 66 wrote:With a resolve to be equal to people of shinjin,
Practitioners of self-power, while entertaining doubt,
Should realize the Tathagata's benevolence
And strive hard in reciting the Nembutsu.
Just practice in the normal way, as you would expect to practice Pure Land Buddhism. At the same time, "listening deeply" is listening to the sutras and commentaries (Shinran and Rennyo's words), as well as questioning a teacher or "good friend" about all points of doubt, and reflecting deeply on your nature in relation to those texts. If you read Shinran's works 100 times, while deeply questioning and investigating it each time, you will surely come to fruitful effects.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

If you practice gratitude, gratitude is your practice.
Anything that you practice is your practice.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Zhen Li
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Zhen Li »

There are practices that make Nembutsu of gratitude more likely to be uttered. But that Nembutsu itself we do not consider a self-power practice because it is the result of the natural working of Amida Buddha. George Gatenby put it as: "The Other-Power Nembutsu is ‘no practice’ on our side." Yes, it is a practice but it is on the side of Amida Buddha and it is on the side of suchness. Since it is on the side of suchness, as Tanluan puts it: "When the bodhisattvas perform practice based on suchness, it is non-practice. Practicing while not practicing is termed ‘practicing in accord with reality’." (Commentary on the Treatise by Vasubandhu, 92)

So, Nembutsu of gratitude is the non-practice practice.

I think, Wannabuddha, your question is actually more practice and not really so philosophical, right? You want to know what to do to receive Shinjin. Receiving Shinjin is the natural working of Amida, but you can make yourself more attuned to it in many ways.
:anjali:
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Best to find a teacher to transmit Faith and work with a Sangha
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laic
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by laic »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:04 pm I'm still not sure.....
I simply think that all the calculations have to stop.

Another lineage, but Ajahn Chan once said....

Do not worry about enlightenment. When growing a tree, you plant it, water it, fertilize it, keep the bugs away; and if these things are done properly, the tree will naturally grow. How quickly it grows, however, is something you cannot control.

Do not worry about * (fill in as appropriate, perhaps "shinjin")

Just keep the bugs away. Be grateful.
Protecting oneself one protects others
Protecting others one protects oneself
Wannabuddha
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Wannabuddha »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:38 pm I think, Wannabuddha, your question is actually more practice and not really so philosophical, right? You want to know what to do to receive Shinjin. Receiving Shinjin is the natural working of Amida, but you can make yourself more attuned to it in many ways.
:anjali:
This is what I'd like to know more about. Sometimes I fear that I'm not doing enough to be properly receptive, or conversely I fear that I'm still unwittingly engaging in practices which are self-power-oriented and counterproductive.

For example, I've had a hard time getting away from the idea that karmic purification through precept-keeping is a necessary preliminary, or a prudent "failsafe" just in case I never receive shinjin.

Also, I have tended to treat nembutsu in a very quantitative and grinding fashion, setting myself daily targets, doing it as a single "session", and implicitly treating it as a matter of more = better. Lately I've gotten away from that, and am simply saying nembutsu when it occurs to me, which sometimes turns out to be all day long, but I'm still not sure exactly why I'm saying it. Sometimes I think of it as just a way of being in touch with Amida, and I find it comforting.

I certainly understand the importance of asking questions from somebody who knows. There is no Shin temple in my area, and my health problems make it impossible for me to travel, but I've recently initiated an emailing relationship with Rev. Yuki Sugahara of the Oregon Buddhist Temple. I've been trying not to bother him with too many questions, but he's been very accessible and I'm glad to have his help at hand. I trust him more than most Shin ministers whom I've seen online.

As for listening to the Dharma, I'm a little unclear about exactly what I should be reading/listening to. Should I listen to Dharma talks? Should I simply read the writings of Shinran and the letters of Rennyo? If I'm reading the works of Shinran, should I read everything he wrote from beginning to end? The Collected Works runs to 700 pages, and I've struggled with the Kyogyoshinsho, but I'm willing to plug away until I've got it, if doing so is essential for my receiving shinjin.
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Zhen Li
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Zhen Li »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:25 pm This is what I'd like to know more about. Sometimes I fear that I'm not doing enough to be properly receptive, or conversely I fear that I'm still unwittingly engaging in practices which are self-power-oriented and counterproductive.

For example, I've had a hard time getting away from the idea that karmic purification through precept-keeping is a necessary preliminary, or a prudent "failsafe" just in case I never receive shinjin.
There is no necessary preliminary in Shin; no ngöndro like they have in Vajrayana. But self-power Nembutsu carries with it enough fail-safe that you can reasonably be rest-assured with borderland birth without Shinjin. But precepts and meditation doesn't hurt anyone, it can simply improve your life.

As for karmic purification, know that the Nembutsu serves this purpose. So, you can, in fact, put more reliance upon this one thing as a "tool" until receiving Shinjin.

So, I would say that if you practice self-power Pure Land Buddhism as best as you can, while studying Shin, you are taking care of all of the "preliminaries" and "purifications" that you will ever need. This will help you to maintain concentration on the tradition's texts and practices, so you don't have to worry about studying other texts or traditions—which may be beneficial, but won't necessarily be conducive to Shinjin.
Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:25 pm Also, I have tended to treat nembutsu in a very quantitative and grinding fashion, setting myself daily targets, doing it as a single "session", and implicitly treating it as a matter of more = better. Lately I've gotten away from that, and am simply saying nembutsu when it occurs to me, which sometimes turns out to be all day long, but I'm still not sure exactly why I'm saying it. Sometimes I think of it as just a way of being in touch with Amida, and I find it comforting.
Either approach is fine. I suppose you have already read Ryukan "Clarification of Once Calling and Many Calling" and Shinran's "Notes on Once Calling and Many Calling." If not, they provide a good overview of approaches to the quantitative perspective.
Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:25 pm I certainly understand the importance of asking questions from somebody who knows. There is no Shin temple in my area, and my health problems make it impossible for me to travel, but I've recently initiated an emailing relationship with Rev. Yuki Sugahara of the Oregon Buddhist Temple. I've been trying not to bother him with too many questions, but he's been very accessible and I'm glad to have his help at hand. I trust him more than most Shin ministers whom I've seen online.
Yuki Sensei is also my sensei, and I am a distance member of OBT. It is his full-time profession to answer questions on Shin, essentially, and he does it very well. I really believe you can trust in him with any query or concern.
Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:25 pm As for listening to the Dharma, I'm a little unclear about exactly what I should be reading/listening to. Should I listen to Dharma talks? Should I simply read the writings of Shinran and the letters of Rennyo? If I'm reading the works of Shinran, should I read everything he wrote from beginning to end? The Collected Works runs to 700 pages, and I've struggled with the Kyogyoshinsho, but I'm willing to plug away until I've got it, if doing so is essential for my receiving shinjin.
Yes to all, but no to the "essential" suggestion.

No one can recommend you don't read the Collected Works of Shinran. But for some it takes listening to a few Dharma talks. There is no a required minimum because we all have different karma. If you get tired of one activity, switch to another, but it is best to continue to engage with Shin on a daily basis. Reading can be tiring for some, personally I use text-to-speech readers to get through long or difficult materials. Some things make more sense when you hear them than when you read them.

In all, just be sure that it is not just passive listening, but rather active listening with questioning and deep curiosity. Don't let a point of doubt go unquestioned.

As for Yuki Sensei, on YouTube, he has many hours of Dharma talks that cover most of the essential points you would find in the KGSS. I suspect he will also eventually do a KGSS playlist.

In terms of books/online writings would also recommend anything by Hisao Inagaki, George Gatenby, and Harold Bloom's Essential Shinran is also helpful. There are also a few books by John Paraskevopolous (not available digitally, as far as I can tell) which have all been great.
Wannabuddha
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Wannabuddha »

Many thanks, Zhen Li and others who have answered! Very helpful and clarifying replies.

As for Dharma listening, when I first became seriously interested in Jodo Shinshu a little while ago, I immediately ripped hundreds of YouTube Dharma talks from about a dozen different Shin temple channels. My reaction to most of these talks was boredom and disappointment. A lot of these talks are non-substantive and have the vibe of a Rotary Club meeting. I connected only with Yuki Sugahara of Oregon, Kerry Kiyohara of Makawao, and the junior minister from the Denver temple (name unknown). So I've been listening to a lot of their talks.

I'm a little concerned that a lot of Shin temples only started posting talks online because of the pandemic, and will stop posting talks online now that the congregations are meeting in person again. But it seems like the Oregon Buddhist Temple is going to keep posting content online.

Apart from that, I've decided I'm also going to read Shinran and Rennyo directly, a little each day.
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Zhen Li
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

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Wannabuddha wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:46 pm As for Dharma listening, when I first became seriously interested in Jodo Shinshu a little while ago, I immediately ripped hundreds of YouTube Dharma talks from about a dozen different Shin temple channels. My reaction to most of these talks was boredom and disappointment. A lot of these talks are non-substantive and have the vibe of a Rotary Club meeting. I connected only with Yuki Sugahara of Oregon, Kerry Kiyohara of Makawao, and the junior minister from the Denver temple (name unknown). So I've been listening to a lot of their talks.
Yes, I found this too. You definitely have to be discerning between what works for you and what doesn't. I think being drawn to a minister and his/her teaching is largely due to our karmic ties to them in the past.

Generally, I think a minister needs to talk about 1. Shinjin, 2. Works of Shinran/Rennyo, 3. What is Amida, birth, or the Pure Land. This doesn't always happen. You'll see that Rennyo encountered a lot of the same issues in his day, so it's by no means a modern phenomena.
Wannabuddha wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:46 pm Apart from that, I've decided I'm also going to read Shinran and Rennyo directly, a little each day.
That's great. My first read through of their works left many questions, but things start to come together naturally after you spend a lot of time with them.
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Re: So is nembutsu a practice or not?

Post by Zenkonin »

Wannabuddha wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:04 pm I'm still not sure. I've seen some people say the only practice in Shin is deep listening, and nembutsu is purely an expression of gratitude. But I've also heard that the usual way to progress is by starting out with self-power nembutsu, doing it frequently, and allowing it to develop naturally into the kind of nembutsu which is an expression of gratitude. That sounds to me like a kind of practice. Also, if nembutsu is purely an expression of gratitude, why should a person who has yet to receive shinjin do it at all?
Yes, nembutsu chanting is a practice. Meditation and contemplation on the nembutsu mantra is a practice as well. Deep listening is attentively chanting one's nembutsu. One who performs nembutsu lives with the attitude of gratitude and the compassion.
To everything one is practicing there are certain stages, so it is with the nembutsu. The taste develops in time. Patience is the key.
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