Broken samaya and mental illness

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Tsultrimpowo
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Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:18 am

Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by Tsultrimpowo »

Greetings

for over ten years I studied dzogchen with a Tibetan teacher. I did abhisheka and regular retreats. It was a wonderfully intimate and powerful experience.. Unfortunately a scandal erupted regarding past misconduct with the teacher and the community blew up. We were given the opportunity to return my samaya, which I did, fearing that I was harbouring bad feelings and I didnt feel I could continue with this teacher.

Ive experienced many personal losses that culminated in mental health crisis, that felt more like a demonic attack and experience of the lower realms. There was very little discussion about samaya commitments, certainly nothing about purifying broken vows. Considering the amount of bad behaviour in the community this was surprising. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how naive I was and thick my habitual patterns are. So much has been revealed to me in this experience. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disconnected and disheartened. Dzogchen is extreme and I wonder if this par for the course and part of the path of purification. It is hard to know how to heal this and move forward.

I am considering taking samaya again with this teacher and focusing on purification, but wondering if it is too late. I would appreciate some help
jamesrigzin
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by jamesrigzin »

Hey brother.

Well, if you respectfully returned your samaya/apprenticeship to this lama, why would you want to take samaya vows again with him?

Why haven’t you moved on? I understand it is easy for me to say/ask, not having had the experience you describe.

But I’m genuinely curious.

🙏🏼
Soma999
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Re: Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by Soma999 »

You have cut the connection with this teacher, not with dgogchen.

It is normal to feel bad if the teacher you trust commit very negative actions. You have commited no wrong.

Even thought a teacher may, being human, do bad things, he may still bring teachings of value, and what he has done does not reduce the value of what you lived with him.

It is up to you to see if you want to maintain a connection and teachings with him.

For purification, Vajrasattva, and also in Gelug they meditate on Samayavajra which is specific for samaya problems.
Tsultrimpowo
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Re: Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by Tsultrimpowo »

thanks for your comments. It is such a conundrum. I deeply value the teachings and teacher, despite all that has happened. there is a deep karmic link that is undeniable, I fear the consequences of leaving that sacred contract. it almost feels choiceless. Again, hard to tell if depression ( I have a long history with it, b4 Buddhism)is the cause of suffering or a break in samaya is the cause of my depression. I would like to think there is redemption in purification. t
PeterC
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Re: Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by PeterC »

There is no such thing as returning samaya. You might conclude that there was some problem with the initiation so you never received it, but if you received it, you’re stuck with it. You can of course return practice commitments but that’s another thing.

If you can’t continue studying with a teacher, you just don’t see them or the sangha, and as far as possible maintain pure perception of them. But the most important thing is to keep practising in some form. That’s what causes protectors to protect you.

Pure perception may be difficult, but we have various means of purification for when we (inevitably) fail at it.
Toenail
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Re: Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by Toenail »

Tsultrimpowo wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:53 am thanks for your comments. It is such a conundrum. I deeply value the teachings and teacher, despite all that has happened. there is a deep karmic link that is undeniable, I fear the consequences of leaving that sacred contract. it almost feels choiceless. Again, hard to tell if depression ( I have a long history with it, b4 Buddhism)is the cause of suffering or a break in samaya is the cause of my depression. I would like to think there is redemption in purification. t
Remember in this whole guilt/sin/nonvirtuous actions schtick that you can also still accumulate merit. It does not always have to be about the past etc. If you feel unhappy, you can plant causes for happiness right now. Also if you really regret something (or are unhappy about your state of being for example doubt or impure view, worried about the consequences etc), it is very easy to purify. Just do Tsok or a mala of Vajrasattva. You can also just confess it visualizing the Buddha as the union of all Gurus. If it is ongoing doubt and worry, just purify your impure view. Very few people alive can actually see the Guru as buddha. That is why there are so many methods of purification. People will tell you their Lama is buddha, but it is not always grounded in faith based on having recognized their natural state, so it is as tainted as seeing them as an ordinary being. Being on the path means trying. And we fail until we succeed and every evening we confess our failures. Thats normal.

When I became a Buddhist some 13 years ago I remember having very strong thoughts of hatred towards my Lama. I felt so bad and guilty because of it. It just happened when I was in the presence of high Lamas. Wanting to harm your Lama has to be one of the worst karmas there is. I could not help it. While I was never going to do it and while there was no reason, these thoughts came. Im still here progressing in my practice. I have love for my Lamas now. The earth did not swallow me. We do not choose our kleshas in this life. Sometimes we have to accept that they are there and still continue step by step without getting discouraged.
Tsultrimpowo
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an issue with samaya?

Post by Tsultrimpowo »

Ive experienced many personal losses that felt more like a demonic attack. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how thick my habitual patterns are. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disheartened.
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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: an issue with samaya?

Post by Gyurme Kundrol »

Tsultrimpowo wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:34 pm Ive experienced many personal losses that felt more like a demonic attack. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how thick my habitual patterns are. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disheartened.
How could you have failed? You began a sentient being, you are still a sentient being. But, at least you are a sentient being who knows of Dzogchen. There are many Dzogchen teachers out there, many teachings available all the time. Not only have you not failed, but there is still a world of opportunity laying ahead of you if you want to seek it out. Just in the last few months, and next few months, Ive seen like a dozen Dzogchen teachings popping up from different teachers.

Its not your fault this previous teacher of yours was entangled in a scandal. In the stories of the Mahasiddhas, when demons came to disrupt their practice, they recognized them as manifestations of their own mind and the demons were disempowered and went away. The meaning is that phenomena only have the power over us that we allow as a result of our own delusion and clinging. Dzogchen is about learning to relax and release this habit of conceptual grasping and proliferation. Dont give up on yourself.
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Lingpupa
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Re: an issue with samaya?

Post by Lingpupa »

Tsultrimpowo wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:34 pm Ive experienced many personal losses that felt more like a demonic attack. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how thick my habitual patterns are. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disheartened.
This is samsara. Bad stuff (some *really* bad stuff) happens. It may be karma, but don't take it TOO personally.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Tsultrimpowo
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Re: an issue with samaya?

Post by Tsultrimpowo »

Gyurme Kundrol wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:55 am
Tsultrimpowo wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:34 pm Ive experienced many personal losses that felt more like a demonic attack. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how thick my habitual patterns are. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disheartened.
How could you have failed? You began a sentient being, you are still a sentient being. But, at least you are a sentient being who knows of Dzogchen. There are many Dzogchen teachers out there, many teachings available all the time. Not only have you not failed, but there is still a world of opportunity laying ahead of you if you want to seek it out. Just in the last few months, and next few months, Ive seen like a dozen Dzogchen teachings popping up from different teachers.

Its not your fault this previous teacher of yours was entangled in a scandal. In the stories of the Mahasiddhas, when demons came to disrupt their practice, they recognized them as manifestations of their own mind and the demons were disempowered and went away. The meaning is that phenomena only have the power over us that we allow as a result of our own delusion and clinging. Dzogchen is about learning to relax and release this habit of conceptual grasping and proliferation. Dont give up on yourself.

this is very helpful, thank you. I am no mahasiddha, but I feel like I have been faithful to the path, despite my many faults. The demoic attack felt like a possession of an external entity, but I can concede it may have been a sub personality expressing itself when I was in a weakened and isolated state. I thought I was condemned to hell and that I would go completely and irrevocably insane, that all was lost, but it was a transitory experience and 'I' eventually returned to my normal life, but fundamentally changed. It was a direct experience of the pain and absolute futility of samsara, that I feel many people deal with, but I failed to appreciate in my place of privilege as dharma practitioner. I had become very self absorbed. My question is this evidence of my ultimate failure, breaking samaya or other vows, (again I am not sure how, I live a pretty pius life, not that I am immune to the 3 poisons) and vajra hell awaits, or was this a purification of sort, a blunt wake up call and i am still on the path of enlightenment? Is there a Buddhist verison of a dark night of the soul, I might start a separate thread on this topic) I feel totally groundless and it is hard to know.
Tata1
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Re: an issue with samaya?

Post by Tata1 »

Tsultrimpowo wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:44 pm
Gyurme Kundrol wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:55 am
Tsultrimpowo wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:34 pm Ive experienced many personal losses that felt more like a demonic attack. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how thick my habitual patterns are. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disheartened.
How could you have failed? You began a sentient being, you are still a sentient being. But, at least you are a sentient being who knows of Dzogchen. There are many Dzogchen teachers out there, many teachings available all the time. Not only have you not failed, but there is still a world of opportunity laying ahead of you if you want to seek it out. Just in the last few months, and next few months, Ive seen like a dozen Dzogchen teachings popping up from different teachers.

Its not your fault this previous teacher of yours was entangled in a scandal. In the stories of the Mahasiddhas, when demons came to disrupt their practice, they recognized them as manifestations of their own mind and the demons were disempowered and went away. The meaning is that phenomena only have the power over us that we allow as a result of our own delusion and clinging. Dzogchen is about learning to relax and release this habit of conceptual grasping and proliferation. Dont give up on yourself.

this is very helpful, thank you. I am no mahasiddha, but I feel like I have been faithful to the path, despite my many faults. The demoic attack felt like a possession of an external entity, but I can concede it may have been a sub personality expressing itself when I was in a weakened and isolated state. I thought I was condemned to hell and that I would go completely and irrevocably insane, that all was lost, but it was a transitory experience and 'I' eventually returned to my normal life, but fundamentally changed. It was a direct experience of the pain and absolute futility of samsara, that I feel many people deal with, but I failed to appreciate in my place of privilege as dharma practitioner. I had become very self absorbed. My question is this evidence of my ultimate failure, breaking samaya or other vows, (again I am not sure how, I live a pretty pius life, not that I am immune to the 3 poisons) and vajra hell awaits, or was this a purification of sort, a blunt wake up call and i am still on the path of enlightenment? Is there a Buddhist verison of a dark night of the soul, I might start a separate thread on this topic) I feel totally groundless and it is hard to know.
If you are still on the path trying to practice to the best of your current abilities you havent broken samaya.
Also remember we are in samsara, shit is suppouse to happen. Suffering is all pervasive and the good thing is that you have methods to slowly work with it. No need to beat on yourself, you are not "bad" or did something wrong, its the naure of samsara to experience this kinds of things. Keep going and dont be hard on yourself
the way of the free
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:59 pm

Re: Broken samaya and mental illness

Post by the way of the free »

Tsultrimpowo wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:54 am Greetings

for over ten years I studied dzogchen with a Tibetan teacher. I did abhisheka and regular retreats. It was a wonderfully intimate and powerful experience.. Unfortunately a scandal erupted regarding past misconduct with the teacher and the community blew up. We were given the opportunity to return my samaya, which I did, fearing that I was harbouring bad feelings and I didnt feel I could continue with this teacher.

Ive experienced many personal losses that culminated in mental health crisis, that felt more like a demonic attack and experience of the lower realms. There was very little discussion about samaya commitments, certainly nothing about purifying broken vows. Considering the amount of bad behaviour in the community this was surprising. I cant think of anything I might of done to intentionally cause harm or violate samaya, but I also recognize how naive I was and thick my habitual patterns are. So much has been revealed to me in this experience. The dharma is the most important thing in my life, but somehow I feel I have failed and I feel very disconnected and disheartened. Dzogchen is extreme and I wonder if this par for the course and part of the path of purification. It is hard to know how to heal this and move forward.

I am considering taking samaya again with this teacher and focusing on purification, but wondering if it is too late. I would appreciate some help
I'm sorry you went through this. I can't offer any advice I can only say that I have had similar experiences. Take care. I wish you well.
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