Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

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Nalanda
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Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Nalanda »

For most of them, are they in some kind of suspended state of arhatship awaiting something? What?

Who are the ones (besides Sariputra) who received Mahayana teachings and become Bodhisattvas? When did these disciples learn their Hinayana training needed Mahayana to complete?
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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

You should develop the six abhijñas and then find that out personally. Then come and tell us your findings, maybe there are some who will listen to you, and who will not flippantly discard your hard-acquired precious information.
Meanwhile there is also this:
"He was recognised by the Thirteenth Dalai Lama as a reincarnation of Bakula Arhat, one of the Sixteen Arhats who in legend were direct disciples of Gautama Buddha. He was a direct descendant of the last King of Ladakh Tsepel Tondup Namgyal. He was, in fact, his great-great-great grandson.

"In 1962 ... allowed the Indian troops to convert a section of his Pethub Monastery into a makeshift military hospital. When a section of people in Kashmir demanded plebiscite, Rinpoche categorically stated that Ladakh would never go to Pakistan and would remain with India."

Later he served in the Parliament of India, and was deeply engaged with welfare, education and rights of the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes of India. From January 1990 to October 2000, he was India's Ambassador in Mongolia. He was awarded the Padma Bhushan in 1988.The airport at Leh in the Indian region of Ladakh is named after him."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_Kush ... a_Rinpoche
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

By now, the OP probably realize that that aren't any takers on this subject because you just touched on one of the most controversial topics in Buddhism.

Its in fact one of the major irreconcilable differences between the earlier Nikaya schools and Mahayana that have lasted for centuries. So something are best left unsaid, its better to use that time to contemplate on your practices instead.

But if you persist. you can search it on the post history of this site to learn more. I wrote once or twice before on this matter before but its buried under tons of materials from other unrelated topics.
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Nalanda
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Nalanda »

So Bakula reincarnated to this lama, who then died 20 years ago. Is this lama's reincarnation, Bakula?

In other words, is this kid Bahula's current rebirth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Kush ... a_Rinpoche
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by laic »

Nalanda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:50 am For most of them, are they in some kind of suspended state of arhatship awaiting something? What?
I like to think that they are potentially all around me, popping up in the most unlikely places, in the words of children, in music, in the kind words of strangers.

That is what I like to think. Is "reality" different?

What do the texts say?
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Nalanda
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Nalanda »

laic wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:47 pm
Nalanda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:50 am For most of them, are they in some kind of suspended state of arhatship awaiting something? What?
I like to think that they are potentially all around me, popping up in the most unlikely places, in the words of children, in music, in the kind words of strangers.

That is what I like to think. Is "reality" different?

What do the texts say?
Arhats, when they pass away, are said to enter into samadhi of cessation. They are eventually roused out and inducted as beginners on the Mahāyāna path.

Read up on "attainments" threads here at Dharmawheel. Discussed at length in previous years.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by laic »

Nalanda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:11 pm
laic wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:47 pm
Nalanda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:50 am For most of them, are they in some kind of suspended state of arhatship awaiting something? What?

I like to think that they are potentially all around me, popping up in the most unlikely places, in the words of children, in music, in the kind words of strangers.

That is what I like to think. Is "reality" different?

What do the texts say?
Arhats, when they pass away, are said to enter into samadhi of cessation. They are eventually roused out and inducted as beginners on the Mahāyāna path.

Read up on "attainments" threads here at Dharmawheel. Discussed at length in previous years.
Hi, yes, my question was in a sense rhetorical.

All things tend to wend their way along the "middle" (neither annihilationism nor eternalism) , a middle that is not a position between two extremes but a "no-position" that supercedes all positions/views.

It's called life. Just lie back and think of England.

:smile:
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by ThreeVows »

In Tibetan Buddhism, some/many of the arhat disciples are recognized as manifestations of great bodhisattvas. For example, Ananda is a manifestation of Samantabhadra, Shariputra of Sarvanivaranavishkambhin, etc.

There are certain teachers afterwards who have been basically recognized in the same line - for example, the Dudjoms are recognized as later manifestations of the same line as Shariputra, the Kongtruls and the translator Vairotsana as manifestations of the same line as Ananda, etc.
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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Nalanda wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:06 pm So Bakula reincarnated to this lama, who then died 20 years ago. Is this lama's reincarnation, Bakula?

In other words, is this kid Bahula's current rebirth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Kush ... a_Rinpoche
Quite right, that's how I understand it anyway.
Jamgon Kongtrul has been said to an incarnation of Buddha Gautama's cousin Ananda, and Chimed Rigzin was said to be an incarnation of Sariputra. They too should both have been Arhats at the time of Gautama, or sometime after Gautama's Parinirvana in the case of Ananda.

I found this in the internet about Jamgon Kongtrul:
"Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, one of the greatest masters of the nineteenth century, regarded Kongtrul as the reincarnation of Ananda, Aryadeva, Khyungpo Naljor, Taranatha, and others."
Source: https://www.druponrinpoche.org/en/linea ... dro-thaye/

The information about Chimed Rigzin as an incarnation of Sariputra was in a printed brochure in 1990's.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by ThreeVows »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:13 pm Chimed Rigzin was said to be an incarnation of Sariputra.
The Dudjoms too - https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... ation_Line

Of note, Vasubandhu basically discusses different types of arhats and only one type actually is entirely free from future manifestation it seems. I imagine this may have been an example of something that was discussed at more length in earlier Buddhism but which has basically gone by the wayside today, for better or worse. I would not assume that a modern Theravada conception is illustrative of some definitive early Buddhist viewpoint.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by pemachophel »

The so-called 16 Arhats were not actually Arhats. They were/are high level Bodhisatvas Who took the form of Elders/Arhats in order to protect the Dharma until Maitreya comes. They lives in various places in the world and in the Devaloka surrounded by Their retinues. If one looks at the Nay-ten Chag-chod/Prostration & Offerings to the "Place-holders" (sorry, at a loss at the moment at how to translate nay-ten), you will see where each is said to reside, for instance, Kailash and Sri Lanka. If one has enough merit and faith, it is said that one can meet one or another of these "Arhats." So far, I have not been so lucky. It is probable that I have passed one and not recognized Them for Who and what They are.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Seeker12 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:26 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:13 pm Chimed Rigzin was said to be an incarnation of Sariputra.
The Dudjoms too - https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... ation_Line

Of note, Vasubandhu basically discusses different types of arhats and only one type actually is entirely free from future manifestation it seems. I imagine this may have been an example of something that was discussed at more length in earlier Buddhism but which has basically gone by the wayside today, for better or worse. I would not assume that a modern Theravada conception is illustrative of some definitive early Buddhist viewpoint.
There is and has been historically a lot of politics in the history of Sangha and its splitting into various schools. Now that we don't anymore have the presence of the majority of the early shools, modern theravada influenced scholars can quite freely create a new history abbout the formation of the buddhist schools or Sanghas. I cannot believe that the Five Theses of Mahadeva were not an important issue in early Sangha. The theses of Mahadeva caused a very large gathering of Sangha, in which a voting took place. And vast majority, over 90% of the Sangha, supported the theses of Mahadeva. Now the modern theravada does not admit that this event, based on the theses of Mahadeva, has taken place at all. In stead the question is about some quite harmless rules in the version told by theravada. Quite obviously this is because one of the issues in the theses of is the fallibility of arhats. You can't find any proper account of Mahadeva in the net these days anymore.


from an earlier discussion:
"The Five Theses of Mahadeva are quite interesting in several respects. For one thing the underlying implication is that Arthats should be omniscient, and omniscience here means knowledge about everything. But according to Mahadeva this was not the case, because they (Arhats) can be informed by others concerning practical matters!
The five these are:
1. Arhats can be led astray by others, that is, have seminal emissions during their sleep, accompanied by erotic dreams, attributable to deities taking on female forms.
2. Arhats are still subject to ignorance, not defiled ignorance (avidya), the first link of dependent origination, but undefiled ignorance (aklishta ajñana), a residue of their former passions, by virtue of which they do not know the names and clans of men and women, the path to take, the names of trees, woods, and grasses, etc.
3.&4. Arhats are still subject to doubt (kanksha) and can be informed by others. (This is a consequence of the preceding one).
5. Entry into the buddhist path can be accompanied by a vocal utterance (vacibheda). The Holy One (arya) who has entered the stream and is possessed of the first dhyana, exclaims: "Oh suffering", and that cry can be considered an artifice meant to cause the appearance of the path.

from Etienne Lamotte: History of Indian Buddhism, p. 274... 275"
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Of course, Arahats' wisdom is not omniscience as can be easily seen after analyzing several types of Arahat according to Nagarjuna's Treatise on the Great Perfection of Wisdom written centuries ago (see below).

Types of Arahats:

I. Sukkhavipassaka

Those who have attained the noble path through Mindfulness Leading to Insight (wisdom), observation or investigation of reality of life, and the soul detached from The Five Aggregates. They have at least reached the first stage of absorption (First Jhanic State) to realize the true meaning of life and reached the stage of sainthood. They enjoy the happiness of Nirvana through comprehension of the fruits that they have attained.

Those who practice the four foundations of mindfulness will attain Nirvana by wisdom, but they will not see ghosts or any sentient beings in hells or heavens or Brahma. They have no miraculous powers of mind. They do not see Nirvana or Buddha, but they realize there are many planes of existence and there is real eternal supreme happiness that they can enter after they die.


II) Pannavimutta (Dry insight Arahat)

Those who is emancipated through Prajna or insight, similar to or the same as the Sukkhavipassaka Arahat above.


III. Tevijja (threefold knowledge of the worthy ones)

The type of worthy ones who have attained the noble path through super-knowledge from forty subjects of meditation such as the following three :

1) The knowledge of previous lives (Pubbeniva sanusstinana).
2) The super-knowledge of passing away and rebirth of beings (Cutupapata-nana).
3) The super-knowledge of emancipation.

IV. Chalabhinna (sixfold knowledge of the worthy ones)

Those that have fully developed and integrated the sixfold knowledge, are Enlightened people that enjoy the eternal peace or Nirvana and have been liberated from the cycle of life and death by the forty methods of meditation and have gained miraculous psychic power and supernatural knowledge far beyond that of scientists. They have practiced meditation with the eight devices (kasina) until they have reached the fourth stage of absorption (one-pointedness of mind) in each device. They are able to walk on water, fly in the air, or become visible or invisible and can go anywhere within seconds. They perform many miraculous powers which we ordinary people cannot understand.


V) Ubhatobhagavimutta

Those who are emancipated in two ways, namely by arupa jhana and by ariyamagga.


VI. Patisambhidhapatta

Those who practice all forty subjects of meditation and four foundations of mindfulness and liberate themselves from the cycle of life and death attain Nirvana. They are very intelligent with many kinds of super-knowledge and can perform miraculous, powerful actions, especially the super-knowledge of sacred texts and languages can simply explain any difficult problems and make it easy for other people to understand the super-knowledge of all Buddha's teachings. They achieve the fourth stage of absorption in form devices and another four formless devices called The Eight Jhana States. They attain Nirvana with special kinds of super-knowledge and super-power performance.
The first two Arahats don't even have celestial eyes to see supernatural beings. So naturally they do not have any knowledge in regards to anything outside desire realm nor the meditative experiences beyond first Jhana. In fact, they don't even have the ability to know anything about the places outside the human world like deva realms, etc. Furthermore they most likely are no different from any other normal human beings with the only exception of this life being their final one in samsara.

Unlike Vasubandhu however, Nagarjuna and his disciples didn't believe in the regression of Arahats. As can be seen in the modern day disciples like those in the Gelug schools who strongly argue that there is no difference in the realization of emptiness or the ultimate truth by bodhisattvas and arahats, hence the infallibility of the latter.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

I don't think that Nagarjuna would agree; see MMK chapter 16.:

9. “I, without clinging, am beyond misery. Nirvana is mine.” Those who
grasp in that way have great grasping and clinging.

10. When nirvana is not born and samsara not eliminated, then what is
samsara? And what is considered as nirvana?

1. If it is said that impulses are “samsara”, if they were permanent, they
would not move around. Even if impermanent, they would not move around.
Sentient beings too are similar in this respect

2. If it is said that persons “move around,” if they are non-existent when
searched for in five aspects among the aggregates, sense fields and elements,
what would move around?

3. If one moves around in having clung [to something] and then clinging [to
something else], there would be no becoming. If there were no clinging and
no becoming, who would move around?

4. It is in no way feasible that impulses go beyond misery.
And it is in no way feasible that living beings go beyond misery.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by ThreeVows »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:36 am And vast majority, over 90% of the Sangha, supported the theses of Mahadeva.
Interesting stuff. Do you mind telling me where you got the 90% figure?
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:13 pm I don't think that Nagarjuna would agree; see MMK chapter 16.:

9. “I, without clinging, am beyond misery. Nirvana is mine.” Those who
grasp in that way have great grasping and clinging.

10. When nirvana is not born and samsara not eliminated, then what is
samsara? And what is considered as nirvana?

1. If it is said that impulses are “samsara”, if they were permanent, they
would not move around. Even if impermanent, they would not move around.
Sentient beings too are similar in this respect

2. If it is said that persons “move around,” if they are non-existent when
searched for in five aspects among the aggregates, sense fields and elements,
what would move around?

3. If one moves around in having clung [to something] and then clinging [to
something else], there would be no becoming. If there were no clinging and
no becoming, who would move around?

4. It is in no way feasible that impulses go beyond misery.
And it is in no way feasible that living beings go beyond misery.
The adherents of Nagarjuna argue that he was refuting the tenets of philosophical systems from the lower vehicles above but not the actual realizations of Arahats who had gone beyond the limitations set by their systems.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Seeker12 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:43 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:36 am And vast majority, over 90% of the Sangha, supported the theses of Mahadeva.
Interesting stuff. Do you mind telling me where you got the 90% figure?
It is somewhere in the History of Indian Buddhism. There should be exact numbers of the vote, and about the manner of casting the votes. I'll try to find it. In the Vinaya literature different kinds of voting are described, as methods of making decisions in early Sangha.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

The problem is the historicity surrounding Mahadeva. Many scholars don't believe he was present at the second Buddhist council but appeared much later.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:19 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:13 pm I don't think that Nagarjuna would agree; see MMK chapter 16.:

9. “I, without clinging, am beyond misery. Nirvana is mine.” Those who
grasp in that way have great grasping and clinging.

10. When nirvana is not born and samsara not eliminated, then what is
samsara? And what is considered as nirvana?

1. If it is said that impulses are “samsara”, if they were permanent, they
would not move around. Even if impermanent, they would not move around.
Sentient beings too are similar in this respect

2. If it is said that persons “move around,” if they are non-existent when
searched for in five aspects among the aggregates, sense fields and elements,
what would move around?

3. If one moves around in having clung [to something] and then clinging [to
something else], there would be no becoming. If there were no clinging and
no becoming, who would move around?

4. It is in no way feasible that impulses go beyond misery.
And it is in no way feasible that living beings go beyond misery.
The adherents of Nagarjuna argue that he was refuting the tenets of philosophical systems from the lower vehicles above but not the actual realizations of Arahats who had gone beyond the limitations set by their systems.
People are not being honest. MMK is clearly attacking the views and ideas of Sravakayana. The thing is that Nagarjuna was a follower of Prajnaparamita sutras and the Bodhisattva vows. It would be like saying that Perfection of Wisdom teachings and maintaining Bodhistattva vows do not have profound and far reaching consequences, which they have!!
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:41 am
Kai lord wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:19 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:13 pm I don't think that Nagarjuna would agree; see MMK chapter 16.:

9. “I, without clinging, am beyond misery. Nirvana is mine.” Those who
grasp in that way have great grasping and clinging.

10. When nirvana is not born and samsara not eliminated, then what is
samsara? And what is considered as nirvana?

1. If it is said that impulses are “samsara”, if they were permanent, they
would not move around. Even if impermanent, they would not move around.
Sentient beings too are similar in this respect

2. If it is said that persons “move around,” if they are non-existent when
searched for in five aspects among the aggregates, sense fields and elements,
what would move around?

3. If one moves around in having clung [to something] and then clinging [to
something else], there would be no becoming. If there were no clinging and
no becoming, who would move around?

4. It is in no way feasible that impulses go beyond misery.
And it is in no way feasible that living beings go beyond misery.
The adherents of Nagarjuna argue that he was refuting the tenets of philosophical systems from the lower vehicles above but not the actual realizations of Arahats who had gone beyond the limitations set by their systems.
People are not being honest. MMK is clearly attacking the view points of Sravakayana. The thing is that Nagarjuna was a follower of Prajnaparamita sutras and the the Bodhisattva vows. It would be like saying that Perfection of Wisdom teachings and maintaining Bodhistattva vows do not have profound and far reaching consequences, which they have!!
To counter their arguments, one can argue that the hearers still view Nirvana as separate from samsara despite their realization and about how its not possible for anyone to attain a realization far beyond the reaches of tenets expounded by their system. However, there is no way for you, me or anyone to demonstrate any of that factually.

And this does not help when many Theravadins do view the state of Parinirvana as "inexpressible through words and definitions" rather than mere cessation.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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