Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:37 am The problem is the historicity surrounding Mahadeva.
There is no such problem for Etienne Lamotte, there are many accounts of him in the texts of different traditions. Some people even think that there have been two Mahadevas: Mahadeva I and Mahadeva II. But we find this same with Vasubandhu and Nagarjuna, some scholars think there have been two Nagarjunas and two Vasubandhus ! (I don't believe that either). The events in the Sangha at that time seem rather complicated, and many version of the events exist.

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svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Actually my doubt centers more around his appearance in the second buddhist council rather than the number of versions of him.

Because as you already know, Mahadeva was an individual who did one/two of five unforgivable sins and was unlikely to be an arahat, so why would he get invited into an once in a century event where only arahats could attend?

Even if he got invited, Why would he, a non arya monk and deeply flawed individual, be allowed to represent a group of arahats and rise doctrinal issues in front of assembly?

If his issues weren't raise during the second buddhist council, no votes involving the five theses would have taken place.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Lethemyr »

For what it's worth, according to the influential Pure Land Master Tanluan (曇鸞, 476–542), all arhats are reborn into the Pure Land.
The Lotus Sūtra again says, “Śrāvakas are people who have attained what sort of liberation? They are separated merely from false views, and they call that ‘liberation.’ Those people indeed have not yet attained complete liberation, for they have not yet attained the supreme way.” Truly to inquire into the inner meaning (li) here: since arhats have not yet attained complete liberation, they must be reborn. These people, however, are not born within the triple world, and, outside of the triple world, there remains [only] the Pure Land, and other than it there is no place to be reborn. Therefore, they can only be reborn in the Pure Land.”
(Commentary on The Upadeśa on the Sūtras of Limitless Life with Gāthās on the Resolution to Be Born Composed by the Bodhisattva Vasubandhu)
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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Seeker12 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:43 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:36 am And vast majority, over 90% of the Sangha, supported the theses of Mahadeva.
Interesting stuff. Do you mind telling me where you got the 90% figure?
The results of the voting do not seem to exist anymore in Lamotte's History. There is however a paragraph concerning the voting itself, p.279 in "History of Indian Buddhism":
"On his own initiative he (Mahadeva) invented some sutras in which was formulated the fivefold heresy, he summarized them in a stanza which he recited after the reading of the sila during the uposatha ceremony. Dissension broke out in the monastery and Asoka, on his own authority, resorted to majority vote in order to settle the difference. Mahadeva's supporters were the most numerous."

The figures of Mahasanghikas are mentioned later by Lamotte and they were either "several hundred thousands", or "since they were ten thousand in number they took the name of Mahasamghika" (Lamotte History p. 286).

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svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Ching-ying Hui-yuan's Commentary on the Visualization sutra, transl. by Kenneth K. Tanaka, says on p.174:
"There are also three grades to the middle category (of rebirth on the Pureland) that are the highest of the middle, middle of the middle, and lowest of the middle." What are the levels of their capabilities?"
Those of the first three Aryapudgala (Noble indvidual) fruits of attainment among the Hinayanists are of the highest of the middle grade, since upon being reborn in the Pure Land they immediately obtain arhatship. In reality it actually takes longer to obtain Arhatship, but this sutra stated, "obtains ommediately", speaking in superior context.
A question is asked, "Are Arhats reborn or not reborn [in a pure land]?
This sutra does not say they are reborn, since Arhats by definition are not reborn again.
A question is asked, " Nagarjuna states the Arhats also are reborn in a pureland, since a pertinent passage [from Nagarjuna's writing] states, 'There are subtle pure lands (miao ching-t'u) which are beyond the three realms and where the term 'blind passions' do not even exist.' These Arhats will be reborn there, and once there they listen to the Lotus Sutra. How can you, therefore, say that Arhats are not reborn there?"
There are two interpretations for understanding [this passage by Nagarjuna]. The first explains in terms of the Arhats of deluded teaching. Those of the deluded teaching cling to the Hinayana and are confused about Mahayana teaching. When these people of deluded teaching abandon their present body comprised of the [five] aggregates, they enter extinction without remainder before taking any other physical form. Another group [in contrast] after staying in an inconceivable large number of kalpas in Nirvana without remainder, perceive in their mind the thought of being reborn, and then are reborn in a pure land to take on physical form and listen to Dharma. Nagarjuna based himself on the latter [group of Arhats] in his view that [all Arhats] are reborn in a pure land. This sutra, on the other hand, refers to the former [group of Arhats], on account of which it says [all Sravakas] are not reborn.
The second interpretation explains in terms of the Arhats of non-deluded teaching. Arhats who understand Hinayana and know Mahayana are called "[Arhats of] non-deluded teaching". Upon death, they immediately take on physical form and listen to the Dharma. But they are not reborn in any pure land. "What is the meaning of this?" There are coarse and subtle lands among the pure lands. A coarse pure land is a place mixed with Hinayanists, but subtle pure land is only for Mahayanists.
Further, coarse lands are generally for the rebirth of Prithagjanas whose life-spans are limited and subject to transmigration. The subtle lands, however, are only for Aryapudgalas who are capable of creating their bodies at will in the realm of transmigration. The country of Buddha Amitabha is among the coarse pure lands. There are also subtle lands, but this sutra does not address them. The Avattamsaka[-sutra] further discusses this point:

'The Arhats of non-deluded teaching, after exhausting their passion and defilement, seek the Mahayana teaching whole heartedly, and are reborn in a subtle land but not in a coarse country.'

Basing his views on the subtle land, Nagarjuna stated that the Arhats are reborn in a pure land. On account of this he said [as mentioned earlier], "There are subtle pure lands which are beyond the three realms and where the term 'blind passions' does not even exist, and where Arhats are reborn."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:03 pm Upon death, they immediately take on physical form and listen to the Dharma. But they are not reborn in any pure land.
Not a physical body but a mental body similar to bardo beings'. If not they won't be able to enter pure lands that are subtle.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Queen Elizabeth II »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:03 pm 'The Arhats of non-deluded teaching, after exhausting their passion and defilement, seek the Mahayana teaching whole heartedly, and are reborn in a subtle land but not in a coarse country.'

Basing his views on the subtle land, Nagarjuna stated that the Arhats are reborn in a pure land. On account of this he said [as mentioned earlier], "There are subtle pure lands which are beyond the three realms and where the term 'blind passions' does not even exist, and where Arhats are reborn."
Fascinating. So many opinions seem to have been entertained by Indian Buddhists on this question that I have a hard time remembering them all.

The title of this thread reminds me of the Kinks' song Where are they Now?. It occurs to me that a talented Buddhist song writer might compose a new version of the song, with each verse devoted to one or another of the Buddhist scholastic opinions on what becomes of an Arhat. This revised version (Where are all the Arhats now?) would be of incalculable mnemonic value and if you could persuade Ray Davies to sing it, then maybe it could become a hit.

Here is the original.
Where Are They Now?

I'll sing a song about some people you might know
They made front pages in the news not long ago
But now they're just part of a crowd
And I wonder where they all are now.

Where have all the swinging Londoners gone?
Ossie Clark and Mary Quant
And what of Christine Keeler,
John Stephen and Alvaro,
Where on earth did they all go?
Mr. Fish and Mr. Chow,
Yeah, I wonder where they all are now.

Where are all the Teddy Boys now?
Where are all the Teddy Boys now?
The Brill Cream boys with D.A.s,
Drainpipes and blue suedes,
Beatniks with long pullovers on,
And coffee bars and Ban the Bomb,
Yeah, where have all the Teddy Boys gone?

I hope that Arthur Seaton is alright.
I hope that Charlie Bubbles had a very pleasant flight,
And Jimmy Porter's learned to laugh and smile,
And Joe Lampton's learned to live a life of style.

Where are all the Angry Young Men now?
Where are all the Angry Young Men now?
Barstow and Osborne, Waterhouse and Sillitoe,
Where on earth did they all go?
And where are all the protest songs?
Yes, where have all the Angry Young Men gone.

I wonder what became of all the Rockers and the Mods.
I hope they are making it and they've all got steady jobs,
Oh but rock and roll still lives on,
Yeah, rock and roll still lives on.
.
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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:50 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:03 pm Upon death, they immediately take on physical form and listen to the Dharma. But they are not reborn in any pure land.
Not a physical body but a mental body similar to bardo beings'. If not they won't be able to enter pure lands that are subtle.

The form or body in a pure land, and even the form or body in a heavenly realm, are quite similar to the bodies in the human realm, this I have been told (in a private interview). They are not "transparent" like ghosts in a Hollywood movie. In many respects they are like material bodies of the human realm. In that body various spiritual attainments are possible, therefore they are quite real, and they look equally solid as bodies of beings on earth.

Matter or form in a Pure land is much more luminous, and colours are brighter, than here on earth. Gold, silver and jewels are brighter than here on earth. People who have seen merely a glimpse of the ground in the Pure land of Sukhavati, have said that compared to it all colours on earth seem like soot or coal. Also the Indra's palace on in Trayastrimsa is powerfully magnificent, it is of pure gold and superior to any buildings there are on earth. Thus I have heard.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:07 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:50 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:03 pm Upon death, they immediately take on physical form and listen to the Dharma. But they are not reborn in any pure land.
Not a physical body but a mental body similar to bardo beings'. If not they won't be able to enter pure lands that are subtle.

The form or body in a pure land, and even the form or body in a heavenly realm, are quite similar to the bodies in the human realm, this I have been told (in a private interview). They are not "transparent" like ghosts in a Hollywood movie. In many respects they are like material bodies of the human realm. In that body various spiritual attainments are possible, therefore they are quite real, and they look equally solid as bodies of beings on earth.
Well, there are many different types of pure lands. You are referring to those similar to Amitabha's one above. Not so sure about the rest like Akshobhya, Manjusri's pure land, etc, which are not described as detailed in the sutras. Meanwhile Vairocana's pure land is said to be only visible to tenth bhumi Mahasattvas.

We can only be certain that ultimately they are all manifestations from the five colours of light.

At any rate, the argument that Arhats can't have a physical body is due to the fact that they have exhausted their afflictive karma in Samsara. But due to a lack of merit, they can't have Saṃbhogakāya either. So what remains for them is the body they inhabit at bardo stage which, unlike sentinel beings, is not subject to karmic forces of rebirth.

I have no idea if the nature of that body change upon the Arhats' rebirth into the pure lands. Since the sutras do not describe the process in details, this matter can only be speculative at best.
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Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Dhammanando »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:07 pmAlso the Indra's palace on in Trayastrimsa is powerfully magnificent, it is of pure gold and superior to any buildings there are on earth.
Ven. Moggallāna doesn't seem to have been particularly impressed with it. On being invited to visit he gave the house-proud Indra quite a fright by making the whole palace shake with his big toe.
Then Sakka, the lord of devas, and Vessavaṇa, the great rajah, made the venerable Moggallāna the Great follow them into the Vejayanta Palace and roam about in it, and they said: “My dear Moggallāna, see this delight of the Vejayanta Palace, and, dear Moggallāna, see that delight of the Vejayanta Palace.” “This shines forth as a deed of merit formerly done by the venerable Kosiya, and people seeing anything delightful speak thus: ‘Indeed it shines forth from the devas of the Thirty-Three, that is to say it shines forth as a deed of merit formerly done by the venerable Kosiya.’”

Then it occurred to the venerable Moggallāna the Great: “This yakkha lives much too indolently. Suppose that I were to agitate this yakkha?” Then the venerable Moggallāna the Great worked such a working of psychic power that with his big toe he made Vejayanta Palace tremble, shake and quake. Then the minds of Sakka, the lord of devas, and of the great rajah Vessavaṇa and of the devas of the Thirty-Three were full of wonder and marvel, and they said: “Indeed, the great psychic power, the great majesty of the recluse is wonderful, it is indeed marvellous, inasmuch as with his big toe he makes this deva-like abode tremble, shake and quake.”

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn37
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Aemilius
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Yes, and there are many different sutras, here is description from Dirgha Agama:

1. The Buddha told the monks, “The city of the Trāyastriṃśa gods sits at the summit of Sumeru the mountain king, and it’s 80,000 yojanas across. That city has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures. The city is a hundred yojanas tall, and it’s sixty yojanas wide at the top. The city gates are sixty yojanas high and thirty yojanas wide. The gates are five hundred yojanas apart from each other, and each gate is guarded by five hundred yakṣa spirits who protect the Trāyastriṃśa gods.

2. “The gold walls have silver gates, the silver walls have gold gates … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

3. “Inside that great city, there’s a smaller city that’s 60,000 yojanas across. That city has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations are made of the seven treasures. That city is a hundred yojanas tall and sixty yojanas wide. The city’s gates are five hundred yojanas apart from each other, sixty yojanas high, and thirty yojanas wide. Each gate is guarded by five hundred yakṣa spirits who protect the Trāyastriṃśa gods.

4. “The gold walls have silver gates, and the silver walls have gold gates. The crystal walls have beryl gates, and the beryl walls have crystal gates. The ruby walls have emerald gates, and the emerald walls have ruby gates. The coral walls have gates made of many treasures.

5. “The [gold] balustrades have gold balusters and silver rails. [The silver balustrades have] silver balusters and gold rails. [The crystal balustrades have] crystal balusters and beryl rails. [The beryl balustrades have] beryl balusters and crystal rails. [The ruby balustrades have] ruby balusters and emerald rails. [The emerald balustrades have] emerald balusters and ruby rails. [The coral balustrades have] coral balusters and rails made of many treasures.

6. “The balustrades have treasure nettings above them. The gold netting is hung with silver bells, and the silver netting is hung with gold bells. The beryl netting is hung with crystal bells, and the crystal netting is hung with beryl bells. The ruby netting is hung with emerald bells, and the emerald netting is hung with ruby bells. The coral netting is hung with bells made of many treasures.

7. “The gold trees have gold roots and limbs and silver leaves, flowers, and fruit. The silver trees have silver roots and limbs and gold leaves, flowers, and fruit. The crystal trees have crystal roots and limbs and beryl leaves, flowers[, and fruit]. The beryl trees have beryl roots and limbs and crystal leaves, flowers[, and fruit]. The ruby trees have ruby roots and limbs and emerald leaves, flowers[, and fruit]. The emerald trees have emerald roots and limbs and ruby leaves, flowers[, and fruit]. The coral trees have coral roots and limbs and leaves, flowers[, and fruit] made of many treasures.

8. “The city’s seven walls have four gates. The gates have balustrades, and the seven walls have towers and terraces all around above them. They’re surrounded by scenic parks with forests and lakes where myriad treasure flowers grow in a mix of assorted colors. The rows of treasure trees are laden with flowers and fruit, and the fragrance they produce blows in all four directions to the delight of people. Ducks, geese, cakra birds, and other rare kinds of birds in countless thousands sing to each other peacefully.

9. “The palace of the Nāga Airāvaṇa is outside that smaller city, and it’s 6,000 yojanas across. The palace has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

10. “Inside the city of Sudarśana, there’s a Sudharma Hall that’s a hundred yojanas across. It has seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling with decorations made of the seven treasures.

11. “The foundation under that hall is pure gold and covered with beryl. Inside the hall, the pillars are ten yojanas around and a hundred yojanas tall. The Lord of Gods’ throne is laid beneath the pillars. It’s one yojana across, has a mix of assorted colors, and made of the seven treasures. His throne is also as soft as heavenly cloth. Sixteen thrones are arranged to the left and right of his throne.

12. “The hall has four gates, and it’s encircled by a balustrade made of the seven treasures. There are stairways that are five hundred yojanas across, and the gates have seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees that encircle them with decorations made of seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

13. “North of Sudarśana Hall, the palace hall of the Lord of Gods is 1,000 yojanas across. The palace has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

14. “East of Sudarśana Hall, there’s a forest park named Pāruṣaka that’s 1,000 yojanas across.[1] The park has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

15. “Inside Pāruṣaka Park, there are two stone seats decorated with heavenly gold. The first is called Bhadra, and the second is called Subhadra. Each is fifty yojanas across, and the stone is as soft as heavenly cloth.

16. “South of Sudarśana Hall, there’s a forest park named Citraratha that’s 1,000yojanas across.[2] The park has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

17. “Inside that park, there are two stone seats made of the seven treasures. The first is called Citra, and the second is called Sucitra. Each is fifty yojanas across, and the seats are as soft as heavenly cloth.

18. “To the west of Sudarśana Hall, there’s a forest park called Miśrakā that’s 1,000 yojanas across.[3] The park has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

19. “Inside that park, there are two stone seats. The first is called Sudarśana, and the second is called Anusudarśana (?).[4] They’re decorated with heavenly gold and made of the seven treasures. Each is fifty yojanas across and as soft as heavenly cloth.

20. “To the north of Sudarśana Hall, there’s a forest park called Nandana that’s 1,000 yojanas across.[5] The park has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

21. “Inside that park, there are two stone seats. The first is called Upananda, and the second is called Nandana. They have decorations made of coral, each is fifty yojanas across, and the seats are as soft as heavenly cloth.

22. “Between Pāruṣaka Park and Citraratha Park, there’s Nanda Lake that’s a hundred yojanas across. Its water is crystal clear and devoid of any pollution. It’s ringed by seven stepped embankments made of many treasures, and it has seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures. The lake has stairs with handrails on four sides, and it’s encircled by balustrades studded with the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

23. “Four types of flowers grow in that lake: Blue, yellow, red, and white. Other colors like crimson and light blue are mixed with them, too. A single petal of those flowers is a yojana long, and their fragrance is sweet-smelling a yojana away. Their roots are like wheel hubs, and they produce sap that’s as white as milk and tastes as sweet as honey. That lake also has forest parks on all four sides.

24. “Between Miśrakā Park and Nandana Park, there’s a tree called Pārijāta that’s seven yojanas around and a hundred yojanas tall. It’s limbs and leaves spread out in all four directions to cover fifty yojanas. There’s open ground around the tree that’s five hundred yojanas across. It then has seven palace walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

25. “The remaining Trāyastriṃśa Heaven palace halls are 1,000 yojanas across. The palaces have seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling them with decorations made of seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

26. “Those palace halls are sometimes 900, 800 … or at least a hundred yojanas across. The palaces have seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling them with decorations made of seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

27. “The lesser heavenly palaces are a hundred yojanas, ninety, eighty … or at least twenty yojanas across. Those palaces have seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling them with decorations made of seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.

28. “North of Sudarśana Hall, there are two stairways to the palace hall of the Lord of Gods. East of Sudarśana Hall, there are two stairways to Pāruṣaka Park. Again, there are stairways to Citraratha Park, stairways to Miśrakā Park, stairways to Nandana Park, stairways to Nandana Lake, stairways to the Pārijāta Tree, stairways to the palaces of the Trāyastriṃśa gods, stairways to the palaces of other gods, and stairways to the palace of Nāga King Airāvaṇa.

even more in https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... _30-8.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Dhammanando »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:30 pm “North of Sudarśana Hall, the palace hall of the Lord of Gods is 1,000 yojanas across. The palace has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.
And yet a wiggle of Moggallāna's big toe can shake it to the core. Just imagine what a kick or a headbutt would have done to it!

Still, your latest description, in which the palace is made of the seven precious things, is certainly an improvement over your earlier post that had it made of pure gold.

Gold, in general, isn't a very good building material, being both very heavy and rather soft. And the purer it is, the softer it is. Moreover, since gold is a great conductor of both heat and electricity, I suspect the Trāyastriṃśa Council for Urban Planning would have rejected Indra's application on health and safety grounds. With no provisions for complete insulation of the interior, an all-gold palace would have constituted a serious electrical hazard. Essentially it would have been like living inside a lightning conductor and as soon as the Valāhaka devas started tossing around their thunderbolts, Indra would have been toast.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Kai lord wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:00 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:07 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:50 pm

Not a physical body but a mental body similar to bardo beings'. If not they won't be able to enter pure lands that are subtle.

The form or body in a pure land, and even the form or body in a heavenly realm, are quite similar to the bodies in the human realm, this I have been told (in a private interview). They are not "transparent" like ghosts in a Hollywood movie. In many respects they are like material bodies of the human realm. In that body various spiritual attainments are possible, therefore they are quite real, and they look equally solid as bodies of beings on earth.
Well, there are many different types of pure lands. You are referring to those similar to Amitabha's one above. Not so sure about the rest like Akshobhya, Manjusri's pure land, etc, which are not described as detailed in the sutras. Meanwhile Vairocana's pure land is said to be only visible to tenth bhumi Mahasattvas.

We can only be certain that ultimately they are all manifestations from the five colours of light.
That is true depending on the level of your realization. If you think that things in this world are not light and that they exist substantially, you are wrong. You should be able see that the objects in this world are also made of light or creations of mind, without true existence.

There is a partial translation of the Akshobhya pureland sutra in Garma C.C. Chang, (1983). A Treasury of Mahāyāna Sūtras: Selections from the Mahāratnakūṭa Sūtra.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:43 am You should be able see that the objects in this world are also made of light or creations of mind, without true existence.
While its true that objects are ultimately made of five elements that are coarse manifestation of the five lights.

Its incorrect to view external objects as creations from the mind, yogacara is not idealism. Its better to view that the dualistic appearances of external objects are due to imputations from the defiled mind.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:33 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:43 am You should be able see that the objects in this world are also made of light or creations of mind, without true existence.
While its true that objects are ultimately made of five elements that are coarse manifestation of the five lights.

Its incorrect to view external objects as creations from the mind, yogacara is not idealism. Its better to view that the dualistic appearances of external objects are due to imputations from the defiled mind.
There are degrees of understanding and manifestation of the Yogachara. We can take, for example, a bridge that has been constructed by humans. We see it as a "bridge" because of our habitual views, our concepts and our need of crossing a river. As a dependent existent there is "something" before our mind labels it as a "bridge", which happens very quickly. It neverthless takes some milliseconds.

Now the question is that can there be a dreamlike bridge or illusory bridge, that has not been manufactured or constructed. Which when humans (and animals etc) have seen a number of times, becomes habitually existent and becomes indistinguishable from a manufactured bridge.

This latter example is a stronger case of mind created things or objects than the first one. But it also exists. Why or how it exists? There are objects created by samadhi, objects created by hypnotic suggestion, objects created by one's karma (if it is strong enough), and by individual and collective habits (vasana).


This video shows an example of when our mind (or most of us) cannot see what is physically present, but we see a preconceived mental presentation:

svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:14 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:33 am
Aemilius wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 8:43 am You should be able see that the objects in this world are also made of light or creations of mind, without true existence.
While its true that objects are ultimately made of five elements that are coarse manifestation of the five lights.

Its incorrect to view external objects as creations from the mind, yogacara is not idealism. Its better to view that the dualistic appearances of external objects are due to imputations from the defiled mind.
There are degrees of understanding and manifestation of the Yogachara. We can take, for example, a bridge that has been constructed by humans. We see it as a "bridge" because of our habitual views, our concepts and our need of crossing a river. As a dependent existent there is "something" before our mind labels it as a "bridge", which happens very quickly. It neverthless takes some milliseconds.

Now the question is that can there be a dreamlike bridge or illusory bridge, that has not been manufactured or constructed. Which when humans (and animals etc) have seen a number of times, becomes habitually existent and becomes indistinguishable from a manufactured bridge.

This latter example is a stronger case of mind created things or objects than the first one. But it also exists. Why or how it exists? There are objects created by samadhi, objects created by hypnotic suggestion, objects created by one's karma (if it is strong enough), and by individual and collective habits (vasana).


This video shows an example of when our mind (or most of us) cannot see what is physically present, but we see a preconceived mental presentation:

The progression in the understanding of Yogacarin views are much more accurately demonstrated by the Chinese Ch’an master Qingyuan Weixin who lived duriig Tang dynasty and famously wrote the following to reflect his different degrees of realization.
Before I had studied Ch’an for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers.

When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers.

But now that I have got its very substance, I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers.”

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
In short, the point that external objects are not purely mental constructs will be understood once one attains the summit.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

I'm not sure what you mean by "purely mental construct" ?? I have not claimed that either (about 'external objects').

In Buddhism there are the four kalpas. What will you say when in the kalpa of disintegration a complete destruction has taken place, and nothing exists ?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Sādhaka »

pemachophel wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:56 pm The so-called 16 Arhats were not actually Arhats. They were/are high level Bodhisatvas Who took the form of Elders/Arhats in order to protect the Dharma until Maitreya comes. They lives in various places in the world and in the Devaloka surrounded by Their retinues. If one looks at the Nay-ten Chag-chod/Prostration & Offerings to the "Place-holders" (sorry, at a loss at the moment at how to translate nay-ten), you will see where each is said to reside, for instance, Kailash and Sri Lanka. If one has enough merit and faith, it is said that one can meet one or another of these "Arhats." So far, I have not been so lucky. It is probable that I have passed one and not recognized Them for Who and what They are.
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by Aemilius »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 2:30 pm “North of Sudarśana Hall, the palace hall of the Lord of Gods is 1,000 yojanas across. The palace has seven walls, seven balustrades, seven nettings, and seven rows of trees encircling it with decorations made of the seven treasures … and countless birds sing to each other peacefully as before.
And yet a wiggle of Moggallāna's big toe can shake it to the core. Just imagine what a kick or a headbutt would have done to it!

Still, your latest description, in which the palace is made of the seven precious things, is certainly an improvement over your earlier post that had it made of pure gold.

Gold, in general, isn't a very good building material, being both very heavy and rather soft. And the purer it is, the softer it is. Moreover, since gold is a great conductor of both heat and electricity, I suspect the Trāyastriṃśa Council for Urban Planning would have rejected Indra's application on health and safety grounds. With no provisions for complete insulation of the interior, an all-gold palace would have constituted a serious electrical hazard. Essentially it would have been like living inside a lightning conductor and as soon as the Valāhaka devas started tossing around their thunderbolts, Indra would have been toast.
According to Buddha Gautama, in the Dirgha Agama sutra, the gods in different realms are not like humans; their bodies, their radiance, their clothing, food and life spans, their commerce, birth and procreation are different in different realms:

“The gods have ten qualities. What are the ten? First, they fly to places of limitless distances. Second, they fly back from limitless distances. Third, nothing blocks their departures. Fourth, nothing blocks their arrivals. Fifth, their bodies have no skin, bones, sinews, veins, flesh, or blood. Sixth, their bodies have no impurities like feces or urine. Seventh, their bodies never tire. Eighth, heavenly females don’t give birth. Ninth, heavenly eyes don’t blink. Tenth, they color their bodies as they like. If they prefer blue, they’re blue. If they prefer yellow, they’re yellow. If it’s red, white, or other colors, they appear as they like. These are the ten qualities of gods.

46. “Humans have seven colors. What are the seven? Some people are golden, some are fire-colored, some are blue, some are yellow, some are red, some are black, and some are white. Gods and asuras have these seven colors as well.

47. “Monks, the radiance of a firefly is not like that of a candle, and the radiance of a candle is not like that of a torch. The radiance of a torch is not like that of a bonfire. The radiance of a bonfire is not like that of the palace hall of the four god kings, nor their walled city, jewelry, clothing, or bodies.

48. “The radiance of the palaces of the four god kings and their walled city, jewelry, clothing, and bodies is not like that of the Trāyastriṃśa gods. The radiance of the Trāyastriṃśa gods is not like that of the Yama gods. The radiance of the Yama gods is not like that of the Tuṣita gods. The radiance of the Tuṣita gods is not like that of the Nirmāṇarati gods. The radiance of the Nirmāṇarati gods is not like that of the Paranirmitavaśavartin gods. The radiance of the Paranirmitavaśavartin gods is not like that of the palace halls, clothing, and bodies of the Brahmakāyika gods.

49. “The radiance of the palace halls, clothing, and bodies of the Brahmakāyika gods is not like that of the Ābhāsvara gods. The radiance of the Ābhāsvara gods is not like that of the Śubhakṛtsnā gods. The radiance of the Śubhakṛtsnā gods is not like that of Bṛhatphala gods. The radiance of the Bṛhatphala gods is not like that of the Asaṃjñika gods. The radiance of the Asaṃjñika gods is not like that of the Avṛha gods. The radiance of the Avṛha gods is not like that of the Atapa gods. The radiance of the Atapa gods is not like that of the Sudarśana gods. The radiance of the Sudarśana gods is not like that of the Mahāsudarśana gods. The radiance of the Mahāsudarśana gods is not like that of Akaniṣṭha gods. The radiance of the Akaniṣṭha gods is not like that of the Earth Sovereign gods. The radiance of the Earth Sovereign gods is not like that of the Buddha.

52. “The bodies of asuras are one yojana long, and their clothing is two yojanas long and one yojana wide. Their clothing weighs a quarter ounce. The bodies of the four god kings are half of a yojana long, and their clothing is a yojana long and half of a yojana wide. Their clothing weighs half of an ounce. The bodies of the Trāyastriṃśa gods are one yojana long, and their clothing is two yojanas long and one yojana wide. Their clothing weighs a quarter ounce. The bodies of the Yama gods are two yojanas long, and their clothing is four yojanas long and two yojanas wide. Their clothing weighs three twenty-fourths of an ounce. The bodies of the Tuṣita gods are four yojanas long, and their clothing is eight yojanas long and four yojanas wide. Their clothing weighs a little more than a twenty-fourth of an ounce. The bodies of the Nirmāṇarati gods are eight yojanas long, and their clothing is sixteen yojanas long and eight yojanas wide. Their clothing weighs a twenty-fourth of an ounce. The bodies of the Paranirmitavaśavartin gods are sixteen yojanas long, and their clothing is thirty-two yojanas long and sixteen yojanas wide. Their clothing weighs a forty-eighth of an ounce. The gods above them each wear clothing that fits their bodies.

more in https://canon.dharmapearls.net/01_agama ... _30-8.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Where are the arhats disciples of the Buddha now?

Post by ThreeVows »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:35 am The radiance of the Mahāsudarśana gods is not like that of Akaniṣṭha gods. The radiance of the Akaniṣṭha gods is not like that of the Earth Sovereign gods. The radiance of the Earth Sovereign gods is not like that of the Buddha.
What are Earth Sovereign gods? Is that somehow a reference to a chakravartin or something?
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