Twelve Links

Kai lord
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Kai lord »

The second noble truth is the dependent origination, the third noble truth is its cessation and the fourth provides the means or procedures to do so.

Furthermore the two truths is directly linked to dependent origination as explained by Nagarjuna.

Its beyond me to see how one can claim to understand four noble truths along with the ultimate and relative truths but yet remain confuse about certain aspects of dependent origination.

Its like claiming to understand relativity while remaining confused about Newtonian mechanics. In this type of situation, its better to re-examine one's said understanding to see if any wrong assumptions or misconception were unknowingly made.
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Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:52 am Perhaps if you used “becoming” in a sentence, not to explain the Twelve Links, but in a typical sentence so that I might see what “becoming” means to you.
I was becoming tired, so I went to sleep.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

I’ll try to answer everyone in one post.
tobes wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:52 am
Tobes, Thank you. Most followers (and even many teachers!) of the Buddha’s Dharma are unenlightened and yet they understand his core teachings, including the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Three Marks of Existence, and even Dependent Origination as “when this arises, that arises; and when this ceases, that ceases”; and many other teachings, all profound and all easily explainable in simple, straightforward language, So, why should the Twelve Links cause such difficulty that even Buddhist teachers and scholars have difficulty understanding and explaining.
Astus wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:08 pm
Astus, If I understand you correctly, you’re understanding “becoming” as the habit (repetition) of grasping. But how is the habit of grasping a requisite condition for the birth of a being which ages and dies?
And in your example, it’s the signing up to run in a race that is the requisite condition for winning or losing, regardless of whether one trains (the habit) or not.
Kai lord wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:57 pm
Kai, I agree that the Four Noble Truths already incorporate the principle of Dependent Origination; just not the Twelve Links.
Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:42 pm
clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:52 am Perhaps if you used “becoming” in a sentence, not to explain the Twelve Links, but in a typical sentence so that I might see what “becoming” means to you.
I was becoming tired, so I went to sleep.
Malcolm, Thank you for your example sentence. It seems to me that “becoming” (a linking verb) in that sentence means ‘a transition of state’; i.e., from not tired to tired, and it is the condition of tired that is the requisite of “went to sleep”, not the “becoming”.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Astus
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:02 pmAstus, If I understand you correctly, you’re understanding “becoming” as the habit (repetition) of grasping. But how is the habit of grasping a requisite condition for the birth of a being which ages and dies?
And in your example, it’s the signing up to run in a race that is the requisite condition for winning or losing, regardless of whether one trains (the habit) or not.
Becoming is the habituation of grasping, or in other words identifying with something. It is the requisite condition of the birth of a being that ages and dies because being somebody means taking a habit not as something to pursue but as something one evidently is, as a fact. A being/entity/person means a set of habitual truths, in other words a karmic formation. The ageing and dying means that what are held as truths/facts of oneself are constantly influenced and changed by new choices and actions.
The signing up and participating in the race is the fulfilment of becoming, that it's come to the point of being fixed into the entity of one who's completed one's goal. But the same process applies to practically any other story, like how one becomes a painter, a carpenter, or a Buddhist.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Astus, It seems to me that by your understanding all the links prior to the birth of a being that ages and dies are beyond the influence of the being birthed. Or you’re redefining the plain meaning of birth, aging and dying.

Sentient beings are born, age and die, and have innumerable labels applied (and self-applied) on them, but it is the sentient beings which are born, age and die, not the labels.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:02 pm
Malcolm, Thank you for your example sentence. It seems to me that “becoming” (a linking verb) in that sentence means ‘a transition of state’; i.e., from not tired to tired, and it is the condition of tired that is the requisite of “went to sleep”, not the “becoming”.
Affliction (tired) is the requisite condition of suffering (sleep). Karma (becoming) is the cause of suffering.
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tobes
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by tobes »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:02 pm I’ll try to answer everyone in one post.
tobes wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:52 am
Tobes, Thank you. Most followers (and even many teachers!) of the Buddha’s Dharma are unenlightened and yet they understand his core teachings, including the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Three Marks of Existence, and even Dependent Origination as “when this arises, that arises; and when this ceases, that ceases”; and many other teachings, all profound and all easily explainable in simple, straightforward language, So, why should the Twelve Links cause such difficulty that even Buddhist teachers and scholars have difficulty understanding and explaining.

I don't think most followers of the Buddha's Dharma understand his core teachings.

Everyone has to work extraordinarily hard to gain understanding, and this work is principally contemplative; a rough conceptual view is not understanding.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:39 pm
clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:02 pm
Malcolm, Thank you for your example sentence. It seems to me that “becoming” (a linking verb) in that sentence means ‘a transition of state’; i.e., from not tired to tired, and it is the condition of tired that is the requisite of “went to sleep”, not the “becoming”.
Affliction (tired) is the requisite condition of suffering (sleep). Karma (becoming) is the cause of suffering.
Malcolm, You seem to be saying two things: affliction is the cause of suffering and karma causes suffering. Which is it?

Also, are saying that “becoming” is/means karma?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

tobes wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:54 pm I don't think most followers of the Buddha's Dharma understand his core teachings.

Everyone has to work extraordinarily hard to gain understanding, and this work is principally contemplative; a rough conceptual view is not understanding.
Tobes, Do you really think most followers of the Buddha’s Dharma don’t understand his core teachings? Does that apply here at DharmaWheel or are the participants here special?

And do you think many (or most) Buddhist teachers don’t understand the Buddha’s Dharma?

It’s my impression that most followers of the Buddha’s Dharma, at least those who have been studying and practicing for a few years, have some, if imperfect, understanding of the Buddha’s core teachings.

Also, the Buddha taught his Dharma by speaking and some who heard him or heard his teachings were awakened. How else would Buddhist teachers teach the Dharma?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:39 pm
clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:02 pm
Malcolm, Thank you for your example sentence. It seems to me that “becoming” (a linking verb) in that sentence means ‘a transition of state’; i.e., from not tired to tired, and it is the condition of tired that is the requisite of “went to sleep”, not the “becoming”.
Affliction (tired) is the requisite condition of suffering (sleep). Karma (becoming) is the cause of suffering.
Malcolm, You seem to be saying two things: affliction is the cause of suffering and karma causes suffering. Which is it?

Also, are saying that “becoming” is/means karma?
Affliction is a condition or an indirect cause of suffering, as it is the cause of karma, but it does not necessarily result in karma; karma is the cause of suffering, as it always results in suffering.

Yes, becoming = action/karma.
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tobes
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by tobes »

clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:57 am
tobes wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:54 pm I don't think most followers of the Buddha's Dharma understand his core teachings.

Everyone has to work extraordinarily hard to gain understanding, and this work is principally contemplative; a rough conceptual view is not understanding.
Tobes, Do you really think most followers of the Buddha’s Dharma don’t understand his core teachings? Does that apply here at DharmaWheel or are the participants here special?

And do you think many (or most) Buddhist teachers don’t understand the Buddha’s Dharma?

It’s my impression that most followers of the Buddha’s Dharma, at least those who have been studying and practicing for a few years, have some, if imperfect, understanding of the Buddha’s core teachings.

Also, the Buddha taught his Dharma by speaking and some who heard him or heard his teachings were awakened. How else would Buddhist teachers teach the Dharma?
I suppose I am making a distinction between a superficial, intellectual, conceptual understanding and genuine prajna/insight leading to uncontrived realisation. Since we are in a Zen forum, this is surely a point well taken. It applies to all practitioners of the Dharma from the time of the Buddha until now; and it surely includes many teachers too, no matter how well intentioned and well educated they may be.

Yes, the Buddha taught and discourse is necessary. But then one has to repeatedly reflect on what has been said - correct understanding will generally only emerge in this way.

For very subtle Dharmas such as the 12 links, karma, rebirth etc, there is no other way - one has to look and see for oneself.
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Re: Twelve Links

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clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:58 pmAstus, It seems to me that by your understanding all the links prior to the birth of a being that ages and dies are beyond the influence of the being birthed. Or you’re redefining the plain meaning of birth, aging and dying.
Regardless if two minutes ago or two aeons ago, the past is already gone, so how could anyone change it? What can be changed has to happen now.
Sentient beings are born, age and die, and have innumerable labels applied (and self-applied) on them, but it is the sentient beings which are born, age and die, not the labels.
A sentient being is a label. Because labels are mere concepts they seem to imply something permanent and continuous. A being (satta) is being attached (satta) to the aggregates (Sattasutta, & commentary). There is a new being every time we find something to occupy ourselves with. This also applies on a larger scale, from childhood to old age, from the previous life to the next one. So, becoming (bhava) means the process of habituation, a stronger form of clinging (hence: identifying), and that leads to both the momentary birth of a being just as it does to the next life. In the latter case it's usually just called karma.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Aemilius
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Aemilius »

I read a book of Nietzsche's collected articles about greek presocratic philosophers. It seems that they knew and used the word "becoming", atleast according to Nietzche they did.

"In philosophy, becoming is a concept referring to constant change opposed to being. It is the focus of process philosophy as a whole, or with the related study of process theology.
In his written works, Friedrich Nietzsche proposed what has been regarded as a philosophy of becoming that encompasses a "naturalistic doctrine intended to counter the metaphysical preoccupation with being", and a theory of "the incessant shift of perspectives and interpretations in a world that lacks a grounding essence"." (wikipedia)
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Tao »

Becoming is just that: becoming

In spanish it's Devenir and it's defined as "coming to being".

In this case a "false" coming to existence. As the self is a mental construct and that's what is coming to being.

So becoming here is "reacreating again the mental construct of a subject".

Becoming is just recreating Atta/Atman /subject /self /I (as you wish) in the mind.

To really understand what is recreating a subject, it's needed the experience of being without him, even for a short time (in meditation for example).

And then you can see it recreate, come to existence again and it's done following (broadly) the links teach by Buddha.

And Astus is right, it's because of craving or attachment (or aversion), as the links also show.

So Becoming it's not exaclty "craving" but the result of craving as a mental construct of a subject.

No craving, no subject/self/Atta
Kai lord
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Kai lord »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:02 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:57 pm
Kai, I agree that the Four Noble Truths already incorporate the principle of Dependent Origination; just not the Twelve Links.
Since you are familiar with four noble truths, you must have understood its sixteen aspects aa well.

The second noble truth has four aspects as followed;

1) cause
2) origin
3) production
4) condition

Asanga equated the cause aspect with craving, the eighth link of dependent origination, origin with clinging, production with becoming and so on.

Craving causes attachment which results in suffering as easily understood. Clinging is the source of our continued existence in samsara, hence it acts as the origin of suffering. Becoming is the mental habitual energy that drives us to take forms or body at a specific location in samsara as a result of our attachments. Birth gives us a new body which acts as the predominant condition for the manifestation of our future suffering.

To use an analogy;

Craving can be seen as a guy taking a special liking to a girl
Clinging occurs when the guy becomes obsessed with getting together with that girl and thinking about her everyday
Becoming happens when the guy, after obtains relevant information about that girl and driven by his strong desire, finds and buys a house near her location.
Birth is the moment the guy moves in his new home near the object of his heart desire.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Aemilius
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:59 am
clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:54 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:39 pm

Affliction (tired) is the requisite condition of suffering (sleep). Karma (becoming) is the cause of suffering.
Malcolm, You seem to be saying two things: affliction is the cause of suffering and karma causes suffering. Which is it?

Also, are saying that “becoming” is/means karma?
Affliction is a condition or an indirect cause of suffering, as it is the cause of karma, but it does not necessarily result in karma; karma is the cause of suffering, as it always results in suffering.

Yes, becoming = action/karma.
Becoming has more aspects than the karma/volition aspect. There are six causes (hetu) and four conditions (pratyaya).
Sunlight, soil and rain do not have a volition that "they will cause a sprout to arise" (from a seed). Therefore they are not karmic causes, yet they are necessary causes and/or conditions.

Alex Berzin on Causes and Conditions https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... nd-results
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Jeff H »

I think for most of us, all these insightful responses are useful signposts aiming our attention in the direction Buddha suggested, leading to the realization of how things are. It could well be that some few members of this forum have realized it non-conceptually. But for anyone who simply can’t accept the conceptualizations, even as working hypotheses, it’s appropriate that we’re in the Zen forum. For them the Twelve Nidanas are a koan. That works too.
in Bodhicharavatara 9:35 Shantideva wrote:When something and its nonexistence
Both are absent from before the mind,
No other option does the latter have:
It comes to perfect rest, from concepts free.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:59 am
clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:54 am

Malcolm, You seem to be saying two things: affliction is the cause of suffering and karma causes suffering. Which is it?

Also, are saying that “becoming” is/means karma?
Affliction is a condition or an indirect cause of suffering, as it is the cause of karma, but it does not necessarily result in karma; karma is the cause of suffering, as it always results in suffering.

Yes, becoming = action/karma.
Becoming has more aspects than the karma/volition aspect.
In both Nāgārjuna's presentation as wel as Vasuvandhu's, bhāva = karma. Among the four conditions, it would be the adhipati-pratyaya aka karana hetu.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

A couple of quick notes:

Astus, My point about the links prior to ‘birth’ is that, as you noted, they can’t be changed. Since ‘ignorance’ (and all the links to ‘becoming’) are prior to ‘birth', nothing can be done to prevent birth.
Regarding labels, I agree, but then all dharmas, including the Twelve Links and the Dharma, are labels. EOD.

Malcolm, If “bhāva = karma”, then why would the Buddha have said bhava instead of karma? Or used them interchangeably in other suttas?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:54 pm A couple of quick notes:

Astus, My point about the links prior to ‘birth’ is that, as you noted, they can’t be changed. Since ‘ignorance’ (and all the links to ‘becoming’) are prior to ‘birth', nothing can be done to prevent birth.
Regarding labels, I agree, but then all dharmas, including the Twelve Links and the Dharma, are labels. EOD.

Malcolm, If “bhāva = karma”, then why would the Buddha have said bhava instead of karma? Or used them interchangeably in other suttas?
The links are most easily broken between sensation and craving.
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