Twelve Links

Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:16 am Sorry, I edited my post, but you had already applied.

My point is that a ‘requisite condition’ is not a cause (as in a cause-and-effect), but is necessary and precedes what follows. They both can’t be the requisite condition for the other.
yes, they can, otherwise, there cannot be simultaneous dependent origination, all twelve links operating simultaneously, and this is one of three presentations.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

If they arise together, then they aren’t ‘requisite conditions’.

And if all Twelve Links arise simultaneously, then they're not links in a chain and each link is a ‘requisite condition’ for all the other eleven links - which makes the whole notion of links meaningless.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 3:50 am If they arise together, then they aren’t ‘requisite conditions’.

And if all Twelve Links arise simultaneously, then they're not links in a chain and each link is a ‘requisite condition’ for all the other eleven links - which makes the whole notion of links meaningless.
Why don’t you read Vasubandhu, rather than argue from insufficient information?

Nidana, btw, does not mean “link,” it’s meaning is more akin to “limb” in this context. So yes, they are not links in a chain, and were never intended that way by the Buddha.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Please provide a link to the Vasubandhu text. Astus provided a link to text by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu is clear that the links are indeed links in a chain of causation and that the teaching of “three lives” is “incorrect teaching”. Astus also provided a link to text by Nagarjuna and I noted his final two stanzas in a post above.

So, take your pick of sages.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Norwegian »

clyde wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:37 pm Please provide a link to the Vasubandhu text. Astus provided a link to text by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu is clear that the links are indeed links in a chain of causation and that the teaching of “three lives” is “incorrect teaching”. Astus also provided a link to text by Nagarjuna and I noted his final two stanzas in a post above.

So, take your pick of sages.
Here's your link:



(If the link doesn't show, due to DW and Amazon link-bug, just add the following in your browser: amazon.com/dp/8120836073 )

4 volume hardcover set. Fundamental for Buddhist studies.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Vasubandhu presents the traditional ‘three lives’ approach which Buddhadasa Bhikkhu states is “incorrect teaching”. Vasubandhu, following the Maha-nidana Sutta, presents consciousness entering the womb “at the moment of reincarnation”. Not content with his initial explanation, Vasubandhu presents (as noted by Malcolm) four approaches: “momentary” (meaning simultaneous), serial (“the union of causes and effects”), static (I’m not clear on what that means in this context, but I think it’s twelve conditional states that occur as links in a chain. This is the one, according to Vasubandhu that the Buddha taught!), and prolonged (the ‘three lives’ version). But he goes on, the “twelvefold is also threefold” . . . and on, “But there is another explanation”, and on . . . adding more words of explanation, as if that would make it clear.

It doesn’t.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:37 pm that the teaching of “three lives” is “incorrect teaching”.
That is false. Buddhadasa ignores anything inconvenient to his biases, i.e., he dismisses Abhidhamma. The Vibhanga has a detailed analysis.

But you do you clyde. There is no point in trying to answer your questions.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:15 pm
clyde wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:37 pm that the teaching of “three lives” is “incorrect teaching”.
That is false. Buddhadasa ignores anything inconvenient to his biases, i.e., he dismisses Abhidhamma. The Vibhanga has a detailed analysis.
So you say. I don’t agree or disagree with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu or Vasabandhu or any other Buddhist teacher since the Twelve Links don’t makes sense to me.

(And to reiterate - again, I understand the principle of dependent origination, but not as expressed in the Twelve Links.)
But you do you clyde. There is no point in trying to answer your questions.
And you do you.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:36 pm
So you say. I don’t agree or disagree with Buddhadasa Bhikkhu or Vasabandhu or any other Buddhist teacher since the Twelve Links don’t makes sense to me.
It's not hard, but it is profound. You are getting caught up on words.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

And how would you explain it without words?


P.S: The Vibhanga is no help. It’s more words and mostly the same explanations which really don’t explain.

For example, now “becoming” is “action-becoming” and “resultant-becoming”, and some how (whatever “becoming” means) this gives rise to birth (of a being which ages and dies).
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:12 am And how would you explain it without words?


P.S: The Vibhanga is no help. It’s more words and mostly the same explanations which really don’t explain.

For example, now “becoming” is “action-becoming” and “resultant-becoming”, and some how (whatever “becoming” means) this gives rise to birth (of a being which ages and dies).
The term bhava means "to come into existence," in this case, craving and attachment lead to existence.

For example, in the Nidana sutta it says:

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. If there were no becoming at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., sensual becoming, form becoming, or formless becoming — in the utter absence of becoming, from the cessation of becoming, would birth be discerned?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for birth, i.e., becoming.

Becoming
"'From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. If there were no clinging at all, in any way, of anything anywhere — i.e., clinging to sensuality, clinging to precepts and practices, clinging to views, or clinging to doctrines of the self — in the utter absence of clinging, from the cessation of clinging, would becoming be discerned?"
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Malcolm, I appreciate your efforts, but . . . I fail to understand either the meaning of “coming into existence” as a cause or condition, or its difference from birth (which is a ‘coming into existence’).
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:31 am Malcolm, I appreciate your efforts, but . . . I fail to understand either the meaning of “coming into existence” as a cause or condition, or its difference from birth (which is a ‘coming into existence’).
We are to understand craving and addiction to be affliction and existence to be karma, that is, they are causes; while birth is a result, and suffering.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by reiun »

But the "result" is assumptive and theoretical only, requiring faith in whoever the writer actually is. Not a deal-breaker for many, but let's be clear.
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:44 am
clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:31 am Malcolm, I appreciate your efforts, but . . . I fail to understand either the meaning of “coming into existence” as a cause or condition, or its difference from birth (which is a ‘coming into existence’).
We are to understand craving and addiction to be affliction and existence to be karma, that is, they are causes; while birth is a result, and suffering.
This still makes no sense to me. You said “becoming” means “coming into existence” and now you say that existence is karma - so “becoming” means “coming into karma”? Again, I have no idea what “becoming” means or how it is a cause or condition.

Perhaps if you used “becoming” in a sentence, not to explain the Twelve Links, but in a typical sentence so that I might see what “becoming” means to you.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by tobes »

I think it is important to situate this as one of the most profound and subtle of all Dharmas. In the Buddha's own words, it is deep and difficult to penetrate.

Clyde - you seem to be expecting a intellectual answer for something that in all traditions is the fruit of insight. There's something not quite right about your notion of it 'not making sense to you.' Why should it? Ignorance of this is really the quintessence of ignorance of everything. So, the whole paradigm of awakened/unawakened is taking place here; it's not going to get resolved with a bit of logic and discourse.....
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Yes, Dependent Origination is a profound teaching, but I understand the principle of DO. As I and others have noted, the principle is simple, straightforward, easily explainable and understandable - even by an unenlightened being like me.

And an unenlightened being like me understands the core teachings of the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Three Marks of Existence, and many other teachings (e.g. - the Two Truths, emptiness, etc.).

And if only an enlightened being understands the Twelve Links, then either you're enlightened or you don’t understand it either and are in no position to explain it or judge me.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by tobes »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:16 am Yes, Dependent Origination is a profound teaching, but I understand the principle of DO. As I and others have noted, the principle is simple, straightforward, easily explainable and understandable - even by an unenlightened being like me.

And an unenlightened being like me understands the core teachings of the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, the Three Marks of Existence, and many other teachings (e.g. - the Two Truths, emptiness, etc.).

And if only an enlightened being understands the Twelve Links, then either you're enlightened or you don’t understand it either and are in no position to explain it or judge me.
Indeed, I do not understand it, have not penetrated it, have not realised it and am in no position to explain it nor judge you. However, I think I can quietly suggest, given how long I have contemplated such a thing without succeeding, that such a Dharma is not simple, straightforward, easy explainable and understandable.

I'm not trying to be curt here - I'm just wondering why you expect the fruit of insight to be so conceptually digestible, when by all accounts it is **the trophy** of Buddhist realisation.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Aemilius »

Vasubandhu says in AKB p. 404:

"It is also said that pratityasamutpada is fourfold: momentary or of one moment (kshanika); prolonged (prakarshika: extending over many moments of many existences); serial (sambandhika, through the union of causes and effects); and static (avasthika: embracing twelve states, or periods of the five skandhas)."
Vasubandhu is here quoting Vibhasa, says the foot note.

The "three existences" and "two existences " interpretations include and signify innumerable past existences and innumerable future existences.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:52 amPerhaps if you used “becoming” in a sentence, not to explain the Twelve Links, but in a typical sentence so that I might see what “becoming” means to you.
The series from craving to birth is how beings emerge, from a weak intention to a solid entity. Becoming is the habituation of what one has grasped, and once it has become second nature, then that is birth where one doesn't do it but one is it. The distinction between 'action-becoming' (kammabhava) and 'resultant-becoming' (upapattibhava) reflects how during the phase of becoming there is on the one hand the need to actively habituate something, i.e. keep repeating, and there is also the established habit that one follows.

Let's say one likes the idea of winning a marathon, that is craving. If one immediately dismisses it as unrealistic or simply moves on to another idea, then it's over. If one holds on to the idea of winning a marathon, then that's clinging. Because of clinging to the idea of winning a marathon one reads training plans, orders a pair of running shoes, and goes out for a little jogging. If one decides not to continue with the training, then it's over. If one keeps at it, makes it a regular habit to train, then that's becoming. Because of the continued training one has become ready to run an entire marathon. If one decides that it's better not to risk losing a race, then it's over. If one signs up to a race and wins/loses, then that is the birth of a winner/loser.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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