Twelve Links

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clyde
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Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

I have some limited understanding of the Three Marks of Existence, the Four Noble Truths, and the Eightfold Path. These teachings seem simple and straightforward to understand, and relatively easy to describe and explain as scores of very good Buddhist teachers have done for centuries and are doing today.

And I’ve heard and read some very good Buddhist teachers teach about Dependent Origination. When Dependent Origination is taught as “when this arises, that arises; and when this ceases, that ceases”, it seems a simple and straightforward, profound teaching.

But when the teaching is the Twelve Links, it seems, at least to me, to be contrived explaining why these ‘twelve links’ in this order - which seem forced and/or stretching unlike the Buddha’s other core teachings. And I don’t see the point of the Twelve Links as a teaching.

Does anyone else feel this way about the Twelve Links? Or do you understand it and if you do, what do you understand?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by reiun »

They are described as cyclical and inter-related, not linear.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:34 pmDoes anyone else feel this way about the Twelve Links? Or do you understand it and if you do, what do you understand?
It can be summarised like here. For a more in depth explanation I recommend these from Bhuddhadasa Bhikkhu: Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination and Under the Bodhi Tree: Buddha's Original Vision of Dependent Co-arising. And this one is likely the best that's readily available: Paṭiccasmuppāda: The Buddhist Law of Conditionality. For a short overview from the Mahayana perspective see The Heart of Interdependent Origination and its commentary by Nagarjuna in Causality and Emptiness: The Wisdom of Nagarjuna on pages 58-64. There's also this section of the Mahaprajnaparamitasastra explaining in even less words: Bodhisattva quality 14: skilled in teaching dependent origination. For more by Nagarjuna, see chapter 26 of the Middle Treatise (Mulamadhyamakakarika). The Compass of Zen by Seung Sahn also has a chapter on the twelve links.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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clyde
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

As I noted in my original post, I’ve heard and read, studied and pondered the suttas and commentaries, both ancient and modern, about the Twelve Links - and still it feels ‘odd’. I understand the underlying principle of conditional causality, but not the links and how one link gives rise to the next link. And clearly Buddhist teachers over millennia have debated how to understand the Twelve Links. For example, do the Twelve Links represent one life, two lives, or three lives, or do the Twelve Links occur instantaneously? And traditional and modern explanations for the connection of one link to the next seem unconvincing when examined closely and even Buddhist teachers disagree about the Twelve Links.

From Buddhadasa Bhikkhu’s PAṬICCASAMUPPĀDA: PRACTICAL DEPENDENT ORIGINATION:
(1) With ignorance as a condition, mental concocting arises;

(2) With mental concocting as a condition, consciousness arises;

(3) With consciousness as a condition, mentality-materiality arises;

(4) With mentality-materiality as a condition, the six sense bases arise;

(5) With the six sense bases as a condition, contact arises;

(6) With contact as a condition, feeling arises;

(7) With feeling as a condition, craving arises;

(8) With craving as a condition, attachment arises;

(9) With attachment as a condition, becoming arises;

(10) With becoming as a condition, birth arises;

(11) With birth as a condition, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and tribulation arise. Thus the mass of suffering arises.

How is ignorance a condition for mental concocting even before there is consciousness? What can ignorance mean in this regard? Or mental concocting? And so on for each link; e.g. - How is attachment a condition of ‘becoming’ (and what does that mean) and how is becoming a condition of birth?

Of course for a few of the links the connection is easy to understand. For example, it’s obvious that without birth there is no old age, sickness, and death - and suffering. But that doesn’t add to our understanding as it’s the first of the Four Noble Truths.

Again, it’s not the principle of interdependent origination that I’m questioning; it’s the specific Twelve Links, their meanings and connections that I question.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Tao »

First, for me it's clear that the 12 links are the process of the arise of a subject moment after moment. Not of a complete life, rebirth of something like that

Otherwise it doesnt make sense.

When the Buddha said that he saw the builder of the house, for me was refering to this. He saw how the "I" is built moment after moment.

So starting from a "zero moment" for example after waking up or an absortion or any other zero point, the first link starts.

>How is ignorance a condition for mental concocting even before there is consciousness?

For example, you wake up, there's ignorance (as you are not yet a Buddha and your Alaya has ignorance). So your mind go "outside" looking for a external world because of the habit (concocting?) is originally (Saṃskāra). So you activate consciousness (Vijnana really, discrimination)... you go and reach for the external and you discriminate.

>How is attachment a condition of ‘becoming’

Attachment creates desire, desire is just creating future (imagined future) to get what you want, so you start "becoming", I mean, creating the idea of you in the future getting nice things. Creating the idea of a continuous subject

>how is becoming a condition of birth?

The birth of a subject. Becoming is the condition to create the false subject (Atta) as an idea of you in time...

Once you believe in you as a subject in time, you are afraid of death and so on...

Just my point of view.

Best regards
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:21 am
How is ignorance a condition for mental concocting even before there is consciousness?
Dependent origination applies to beings, so it's the five aggregates that are affected at each link. The individual link highlights the most outstanding factor influencing other qualities.
What can ignorance mean in this regard? Or mental concocting? And so on for each link; e.g. - How is attachment a condition of ‘becoming’ (and what does that mean) and how is becoming a condition of birth?
When one is ignorant about how suffering arises and ceases, then one concocts/fabricates physical, verbal, and mental activities to perform, and that results in a mindset/attitude (consciousness) that regulates one's bodily and mental functions, thus colouring one's senses, so when there is an impression (contact) and a related quality (feeling), then necessarily one enjoys and delights in it (craving), therefore wants to hang on to it (clinging), and that turns into an identity (becoming), so it defines one's whole being (birth), but eventually, like everything else, it'll fall apart and thus cause pain.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

clyde wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:21 am For example, do the Twelve Links represent one life, two lives, or three lives, or do the Twelve Links occur instantaneously?
If a Buddhist rejects the idea of a truly-existent self (atman), then what’s the difference?
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Astus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:05 am When one is ignorant about how suffering arises and ceases, then one concocts/fabricates physical, verbal, and mental activities to perform, and that results in a mindset/attitude (consciousness) that regulates one's bodily and mental functions, thus colouring one's senses, so when there is an impression (contact) and a related quality (feeling), then necessarily one enjoys and delights in it (craving), therefore wants to hang on to it (clinging), and that turns into an identity (becoming), so it defines one's whole being (birth), but eventually, like everything else, it'll fall apart and thus cause pain.
You get the award for “most concise explanation”
:good:
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Astus, Thank you for the links and for your explanation.
Astus wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:05 am Dependent origination applies to beings, so it's the five aggregates that are affected at each link. The individual link highlights the most outstanding factor influencing other qualities.
While this seems sensible, where is this stated or taught? And that would imply that the five aggregates are already existent and not dependent on these links for their existence - but then that contradicts the Twelve Links teaching.
When one is ignorant about how suffering arises and ceases, then one concocts/fabricates physical, verbal, and mental activities to perform, and that results in a mindset/attitude (consciousness) that regulates one's bodily and mental functions, thus colouring one's senses, so when there is an impression (contact) and a related quality (feeling), then necessarily one enjoys and delights in it (craving), therefore wants to hang on to it (clinging), and that turns into an identity (becoming), so it defines one's whole being (birth), but eventually, like everything else, it'll fall apart and thus cause pain.
As I understand your explanation, “ignorance” is ignorance of the Dharma or at least of the Second Noble Truth and you say this ignorance gives rise to concocting. How does ignorance give rise to concocting? How does ignorance give rise to anything? And are you meaning that if one knows the Dharma and how suffering arises, then concocting doesn’t arise and all that follows, including consciousness, birth and death don’t arise?

As traditionally given, each link is “a requisite condition” from which comes the following link; i.e., without the precedent link the following link doesn’t arise. You present the links as “colouring” or modifying the following link. That seems to be a departure from the traditional understanding.

Also, your definition of becoming as identity seems strange. But then all the definitions of becoming seem odd. In the suttas, Buddha is said to explain that there are three types of becoming: sensual, form, and formless. What does that mean? And how is that identity?

I could go on and I’m not trying to difficult, but I am trying to understand a teaching, the Twelve Links, which doesn’t make sense to me, seems convoluted, and seems to confound even Buddhist teachers. The other core teachings of the Buddha, in contrast, are relatively easy to understand and often available to one’s experience.

But I appreciate your effort to explain the Twelve Links.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Astus »

clyde wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:58 amWhile this seems sensible, where is this stated or taught? And that would imply that the five aggregates are already existent and not dependent on these links for their existence - but then that contradicts the Twelve Links teaching.
It is taught at each link. As you well noted, to say that there is ignorance without there being one who is ignorant is meaningless. Ignorance is a mental factor, a defilement of the mind, so to say it exists apart from a being is like saying it is not a mental factor at all.
The twelve links are not about the original beginning of things, it is not like there was nothing before ignorance somehow arose. The twelve links can be understood both in terms of three lives (past, present, future), and in a momentary process as well. In both cases there is us who go through those links.
As I understand your explanation, “ignorance” is ignorance of the Dharma or at least of the Second Noble Truth and you say this ignorance gives rise to concocting. How does ignorance give rise to concocting? How does ignorance give rise to anything? And are you meaning that if one knows the Dharma and how suffering arises, then concocting doesn’t arise and all that follows, including consciousness, birth and death don’t arise?
Ignorance is often defined as not knowing the four noble truths, but it can also be not knowing dependent origination and dependent cessation, hence ignorance about how suffering arises and ceases. It gives rise to concocting/fabrication because one believes that's the way to satisfy one's desires, to achieve one's goals. Ignorance gives rise to concocting because one sees only the advantages, the allure of something beautiful and pleasant, but not the drawbacks of craving for and grasping at it. That's why it takes mindfulness and wisdom to avoid falling for such impulses. Knowing the Dharma (how suffering arises and ceases) in theory is important but insufficient on its own to overcome one's bad habits, that's why developing all factors of awakening is necessary. In other words, samadhi and prajna are both needed for liberation.
As traditionally given, each link is “a requisite condition” from which comes the following link; i.e., without the precedent link the following link doesn’t arise. You present the links as “colouring” or modifying the following link. That seems to be a departure from the traditional understanding.
The twelve links are present at each instance of suffering ignorantly. It's not that when there is one link present, like feeling, then the others are missing. Using the three lives format, when one feels something pleasant (note that already that single feeling exists in a compounded way within a network of conditions), then there had to be a contact with something through the six sense gates, and that thing is recognised as a particular form with a particular name, and one has an opinion (mindset) of that thing that is primarily driven by an intention, and that motivation can exist because of not knowing any better. Because of the presence of the preconditions it is inevitable that the feeling of something pleasant is met with liking it, the need to hold it, and thus defining one's whole experience of the world, what in turn gives rise to a fixed set of particular behaviour and mentality that will necessarily deteriorate and decease.
Let's take an apple juice as an example for a pleasant object. To recognise it as such one needs to come in contact with it (seeing/tasting/imagining), and that contact to be meaningful one needs a couple of preconditions, like knowing what an apple juice is and an opinion of it whether one likes it or not. Since one recognises the apple juice as something desirable, it is a pleasant object. With the recognition of the tasty juice comes the thirst for it, the thirst develops into the need to have it, that grows into the thought of being the one who delightedly experiences drinking it. With those present arises the view and entity of the subject partaking of an object, the subject being the actor and enjoyer, while the object what is seen/tasted/imagined. Then with the changing of the object, for instance finishing a glass of apple juice, the subject loses its reason to exist and experiences some dissatisfaction because of that. All this can go down in a few seconds from seeing the apple juice to having drunk it. And then it happens again and again with the various experiences happening, the previous conditioning the next.
Also, your definition of becoming as identity seems strange. But then all the definitions of becoming seem odd. In the suttas, Buddha is said to explain that there are three types of becoming: sensual, form, and formless. What does that mean? And how is that identity?
Identity in the sense of identifying with a certain action plan, a route to take, an attitude towards something, as the strongest form of owning/being preceding the actual manifestation of that conglomeration of physical and mental force. It is the point between the determination to have/keep something and actively being the one who works to get or preserve it.
The three types of becoming categorises the general motivation of one's actions. Sensual means enjoying things, so in case of the apple juice it means appreciating its colour, its smell, its taste. Form refers to perceiving things without the sensuous-emotional tone, like when analysing the physical properties or the chemical components of the juice in a scientific way, or it can also be from an artistic point of view. Formless stands for the abstract, the conceptual, like thinking about why an apple juice is called an apple juice. That's more in modern terms of course, in the usual explanation form and formless are exclusively the domain of religious practitioners and philosophers.
I could go on and I’m not trying to difficult, but I am trying to understand a teaching, the Twelve Links, which doesn’t make sense to me, seems convoluted, and seems to confound even Buddhist teachers. The other core teachings of the Buddha, in contrast, are relatively easy to understand and often available to one’s experience.
'What are the profound dharmas (gambhīradharma)?
The twelve causes and conditions (dvādaśahetupratyaya) are called gambhīradharma. Thus the Buddha said to Ānanda: “The twelve causes and conditions (or pratītyasamutpāda) are profound (gambhīra), difficult to probe (durvigāhya) and difficult to understand (duranubodha).”'

(MPPS X.10; cf Mahānidānasutta)

'When they see a sight with their eyes, if it’s pleasant they desire it, but if it’s unpleasant they dislike it. They live with mindfulness of the body unestablished and their heart restricted. And they don’t truly understand the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where those arisen bad, unskillful qualities cease without anything left over. Being so full of favoring and opposing, when they experience any kind of feeling—pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral—they approve, welcome, and keep clinging to it. This gives rise to relishing. Relishing feelings is grasping. Their grasping is a condition for continued existence. Continued existence is a condition for rebirth. Rebirth is a condition for old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress to come to be. That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.'
(Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhayasutta)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

In continuing my study of the Twelve Links, I found an interview of Leigh Brasington about Dependent Origination. Here he discusses the varying number of links and points to the ‘quarrelsome disputes sutta” (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html) which has six simple links:



He suggests that perhaps the ‘six links’ version is the original version. In any case, he makes the point that the underlying principle is interdependent conditionality, not causality. That’s a profound teaching.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:21 am For example, do the Twelve Links represent one life, two lives, or three lives, or do the Twelve Links occur instantaneously?
There are three presentations, which are all valid and interrelated: serial over three lives, momentary, and simultaneous.
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by clyde »

Astus, Thank you again. But please examine your explanations closely.

For example, how is “identifying with” the sensual (“enjoying things”) requisite for birth which leads to old age and death?

That is one example of the deep questioning into the Twelve Links I’m doing and suggesting.

🙏🏼
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

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clyde wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:55 pmFor example, how is “identifying with” the sensual (“enjoying things”) requisite for birth which leads to old age and death?
If one assumes the perspective of one who likes to drink apple juice it turns into a habit that one follows instinctively. But as conditions necessarily change, feeding that habit creates various challenges, starting with the effort required to feed it down to detrimental consequences like preferring exclusively the company of apple juice drinkers and hating those who say anything bad about apple juice. In other words, becoming (bhava) is when a clinging becomes a personally held truth, and birth (jāti) when the motivation/inclination given by that truth turns into a personality trait.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Twelve Links

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clyde wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:55 pm Astus, Thank you again. But please examine your explanations closely.

For example, how is “identifying with” the sensual (“enjoying things”) requisite for birth which leads to old age and death?

That is one example of the deep questioning into the Twelve Links I’m doing and suggesting.

🙏🏼
The becoming process that follows craving/grasping moment to moment also leads to rebirth lifetime to lifetime, which of course can only lead to old age, sickness, death.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Twelve Links

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Sorry, but I don’t understand. How does identifying lead to becoming? And I don’t understand the meaning of “becoming” (“a clinging becomes a personally held truth”?) nor the “becoming process”. What is “becoming” that leads to birth, a birth which leads to old age and death (so it must mean a birth of a being capable of aging and death)?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Twelve Links

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clyde wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:03 pm Sorry, but I don’t understand. How does identifying lead to becoming? And I don’t understand the meaning of “becoming” (“a clinging becomes a personally held truth”?) nor the “becoming process”. What is “becoming” that leads to birth, a birth which leads to old age and death (so it must mean a birth of a being capable of aging and death)?
Becoming is bhava, literally keeping the wheel of samsara going through volition, creation of karma, which keeps the cycle repeating. Craving> grasping is what leads to becoming in the links:

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... rigination
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Twelve Links

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Becoming can be interpreted as an inherent lust/thirst for existence, more specifically in the three samsaric realms: Desire, form and formless.
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Re: Twelve Links

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clyde wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:03 pmHow does identifying lead to becoming?
Becoming (bhava) is what was called identifying, so identifying does not lead to becoming, unless you mean how the momentary/present life version connect to the many lives version of dependent origination. If the latter, then becoming stands for the type of karma accumulated (habituated) in the current life that defines future birth.
And I don’t understand the meaning of “becoming” (“a clinging becomes a personally held truth”?) nor the “becoming process”. What is “becoming” that leads to birth, a birth which leads to old age and death (so it must mean a birth of a being capable of aging and death)?
Becoming above was used with reference to its momentary, presently observable form, and there birth means the solidification of an identity that then changes, deteriorates, to eventually cease. If you are asking about birth in a future life, then as in the previous paragraph.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Twelve Links

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:03 pm Sorry, but I don’t understand. How does identifying lead to becoming? And I don’t understand the meaning of “becoming” (“a clinging becomes a personally held truth”?) nor the “becoming process”. What is “becoming” that leads to birth, a birth which leads to old age and death (so it must mean a birth of a being capable of aging and death)?
It means the accumulation of action.
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