Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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rodolfosancheznusa36
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Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by rodolfosancheznusa36 »

I don't understand this part, because constant repetition of the nembutsu is not important in this school i have read somewhere. But an online person who follows this school also told me that we are still required to say the Name everyday, it's just that the number of repetitions is not required. But daily nembutsu is still necessary/encouraged.

I'm confused. Please help.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by Zhen Li »

In Shin, actually, there are no "requirements."

Nembutsu is uttered only in gratitude, and in fact, one utterance in one's life after receiving Shinjin would even be sufficient. But since we recall the Buddha in gratitude often, we recite the Nembutsu often.

You can see Shinran's Notes on Once Calling and Many Calling for more details.
rodolfosancheznusa36
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by rodolfosancheznusa36 »

Zhen Li wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:25 am In Shin, actually, there are no "requirements."

Nembutsu is uttered only in gratitude, and in fact, one utterance in one's life after receiving Shinjin would even be sufficient. But since we recall the Buddha in gratitude often, we recite the Nembutsu often.

You can see Shinran's Notes on Once Calling and Many Calling for more details.
Thanks so much Zhen Li! You've been a great help. 🙏
rodolfosancheznusa36
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by rodolfosancheznusa36 »

Zhen Li wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:25 am In Shin, actually, there are no "requirements."

Nembutsu is uttered only in gratitude, and in fact, one utterance in one's life after receiving Shinjin would even be sufficient. But since we recall the Buddha in gratitude often, we recite the Nembutsu often.

You can see Shinran's Notes on Once Calling and Many Calling for more details.
One more question if you don't mind. How do I know if I have already received Shinjin? Thanks so much. Namu Amida Butsu 🙏
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by laic »

Just to give my own response, which echoes that of Zhen Li in many ways, the nembutsu is a response, not a requirement. A response of gratitude to the infinite compassion that is the nature and Being of Reality-as-is. Such a Reality simply gives and does not demand.

Shinjin is pure gift...

Faith does not arise
From within one's self;
The entrusting heart is itself
Given by the Other Power


(Rennyo)

To know and trust that we have been given it by the very nature of Amida allows the heart to rest, and in rest, to give to others.
Protecting oneself one protects others
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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rodolfosancheznusa36 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:44 am One more question if you don't mind. How do I know if I have already received Shinjin? Thanks so much. Namu Amida Butsu 🙏
This is a common question, but all questions about Shinjin are of paramount importance in Shin Buddhism, and we should never tire of asking them but keep pressing until we understand clearly.

Simply put, when you reflect upon your relation to Amida Tathāgata and no longer have doubts that you will be born in the Pure Land after this life, you then have Shinjin.

The moment of receiving Shinjin for some people can be pinned down to a specific time, but for most Shin Buddhists, when they reflect, they see it as more of a period. However, within that time period, there will be welling up of spiritual joy—this is not a regular emotion or feeling; it is a somewhat overwhelming joy that wells up from deep inside and is accompanied by a deep sense of gratitude: it can last for a few days to weeks. However, whenever you recall Amida Buddha and his Vow, the joy will return to your mind, and you respond in gratitude by uttering the Nembutsu.

So in brief:
1. No more doubt
2. Joy
3. Gratitude and Nembutsu
rodolfosancheznusa36
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by rodolfosancheznusa36 »

Zhen Li wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:08 am
rodolfosancheznusa36 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:44 am One more question if you don't mind. How do I know if I have already received Shinjin? Thanks so much. Namu Amida Butsu 🙏
This is a common question, but all questions about Shinjin are of paramount importance in Shin Buddhism, and we should never tire of asking them but keep pressing until we understand clearly.

Simply put, when you reflect upon your relation to Amida Tathāgata and no longer have doubts that you will be born in the Pure Land after this life, you then have Shinjin.

The moment of receiving Shinjin for some people can be pinned down to a specific time, but for most Shin Buddhists, when they reflect, they see it as more of a period. However, within that time period, there will be welling up of spiritual joy—this is not a regular emotion or feeling; it is a somewhat overwhelming joy that wells up from deep inside and is accompanied by a deep sense of gratitude: it can last for a few days to weeks. However, whenever you recall Amida Buddha and his Vow, the joy will return to your mind, and you respond in gratitude by uttering the Nembutsu.

So in brief:
1. No more doubt
2. Joy
3. Gratitude and Nembutsu
Thank you so much.

So does that mean that I wouldn't get reborn in pure land if I didn't recieve Shinjin?
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Honestly, I don't like the expression "receiving Shinjin". One gets the feeling that you do not have your own emotions, your own thoughts or your own mental events. That they have to "be received from some where". This feels strange to me, to say the least. I recommend that you read the Contemplation of Buddha Amitayus sutra, so you can read what Shakyamuni actually says there (about achieving rebirth in the pureland).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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rodolfosancheznusa36 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:51 am So does that mean that I wouldn't get reborn in pure land if I didn't recieve Shinjin?
No, you can absolutely be born there if you don't receive Shinjin. As long as you recite the Nembutsu and aspire for birth. It's just that you won't attain Nirvāṇa immediately upon birth but rather continue a gradual learning process in a transformed birth.
Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:13 am Honestly, I don't like the expression "receiving Shinjin". One gets the feeling that you do not have your own emotions, your own thoughts or your own mental events. That they have to "be received from some where". This feels strange to me, to say the least. I recommend that you read the Contemplation of Buddha Amitayus sutra, so you can read what Shakyamuni actually says there (about achieving rebirth in the pureland).
This is exactly the thing. Shinjin is not our own emotions, our own thoughts, or own mental events. We absolutely do have our own emotions, thoughts, and mental events, but they are definitely not the same as Shinjin. We are able to receive Shinjin in our minds and not allow our minds to stain it. This is just like a lotus which can be immersed in mud but not be stained by it.

This is a specifically Jōdo Shinshū concept, based on Shinran's writings and the seven patriarchs, not purely upon the sūtras.
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Zhen Li wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:25 am
This is exactly the thing. Shinjin is not our own emotions, our own thoughts, or own mental events. We absolutely do have our own emotions, thoughts, and mental events, but they are definitely not the same as Shinjin. We are able to receive Shinjin in our minds and not allow our minds to stain it. This is just like a lotus which can be immersed in mud but not be stained by it.

This is a specifically Jōdo Shinshū concept, based on Shinran's writings and the seven patriarchs, not purely upon the sūtras.
Thank you.
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Protecting others one protects oneself
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Zhen Li wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:25 am
rodolfosancheznusa36 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:51 am So does that mean that I wouldn't get reborn in pure land if I didn't recieve Shinjin?
No, you can absolutely be born there if you don't receive Shinjin. As long as you recite the Nembutsu and aspire for birth. It's just that you won't attain Nirvāṇa immediately upon birth but rather continue a gradual learning process in a transformed birth.
Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:13 am Honestly, I don't like the expression "receiving Shinjin". One gets the feeling that you do not have your own emotions, your own thoughts or your own mental events. That they have to "be received from some where". This feels strange to me, to say the least. I recommend that you read the Contemplation of Buddha Amitayus sutra, so you can read what Shakyamuni actually says there (about achieving rebirth in the pureland).
This is exactly the thing. Shinjin is not our own emotions, our own thoughts, or own mental events. We absolutely do have our own emotions, thoughts, and mental events, but they are definitely not the same as Shinjin. We are able to receive Shinjin in our minds and not allow our minds to stain it. This is just like a lotus which can be immersed in mud but not be stained by it.

This is a specifically Jōdo Shinshū concept, based on Shinran's writings and the seven patriarchs, not purely upon the sūtras.
That is true of all concepts, buddhist or non-buddhist, like for example: general relativity, speed of light, radius of an atom, etc.. They are not our own, but we can receive them. We do not sully them, but they remain pure like a lotus flower.

"In Shin Buddhism, Shinjin (信心) was originally the Japanese word for the Buddhist concept of citta-prasāda (clear or clarified heart-mind), but now carries a more popular related meaning of faith or entrusting.
According to Ueda, "shinjin is the mind of Amida Buddha given to and realized in a person. Shinran interprets shin (信) to mean truth, reality, sincerity; jin (心) means mind. When shinjin is realized, Amida's mind (wisdom and compassion) and the practitioners mind of blind passions become one." (wikipedia)
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:56 pm That is true of all concepts, buddhist or non-buddhist, like for example: general relativity, speed of light, radius of an atom, etc.. They are not our own, but we can receive them. We do not sully them, but they remain pure like a lotus flower.
It occurs to me that this is Platonism. Honestly, I think it misses the point about how Shinjin is received. We don't actually "receive" those concepts in the same way as Shinjin. Probably because Shinjin is not a concept, it is an actual mind that has activity in our minds and the world. Concepts like the speed of light only have activity in our minds when we involve them in discriminative calculation (vikalpa), e.g. whether light is of one nature or another. But Shinjin acts without calculation and our activity—it brings us to have certain inclinations and actions without our active willing it, and without any pre-existing conditions on our part. This is why the Nirvāṇa Sūtra calls Shinjin rootless faith because it is without any roots like ordinary mind states.
Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:56 pm "In Shin Buddhism, Shinjin (信心) was originally the Japanese word for the Buddhist concept of citta-prasāda (clear or clarified heart-mind), but now carries a more popular related meaning of faith or entrusting.
Prasāda and prasanna in Buddhist Sanskrit and Pāli are not the same as in classical Sanskrit. These are meanings that are derived from the Prakrits and local languages, like those the Buddha would have taught in. See Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary:
prasanna [Printed book page 388]
prasanna , ppp., adj. (= Pali pasanna, used in same
way, with loc.; cf. abhi-pra°, and (abhi-) prasāda; seems
not to be recorded in Skt.), believing in (loc.): yada puna
janatā prasanna brahme LV 393.14 (vs), but since people
have faith in Brahmc (I will turn the wheel of the law
only on his request); cittam abhiprasannam, prasanna-
cittaś ca…Divy 137.1. [ID=10591]

prasāda , m. (= Pali pasāda, see Childers; cf. a-pra°
and prasanna, also abhipras°), (1) faith (in, with loc.,
so commonly in Pali): Mvy 6822-24 (no locs.); Mv iii.
434.20 Buddhe prasādasya; °da-jātaḥ (after abhiprasan-
naḥ, q.v.) Divy 23.14; 75.20; = śraddhā, AbhidhK.
La-VP. viii.158
Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:56 pm According to Ueda, "shinjin is the mind of Amida Buddha given to and realized in a person. Shinran interprets shin (信) to mean truth, reality, sincerity; jin (心) means mind. When shinjin is realized, Amida's mind (wisdom and compassion) and the practitioners mind of blind passions become one." (wikipedia)
Ueda is mixing up shin 信 with the non-Buddhist usage, which is equivalent to the other shin 真. 信 clearly means faith in Buddhist usage. For example, in the well-known "大乘起信論" Treatise on the Awakening of Faith in the Mahāyāna—this is not "Awakening of Truth in the Mahāyāna."

More likely, Ueda knows the difference, but he is trying to avoid saying Shin is "faith" as a skilful means so as not to turn away westerners who came to Buddhism to escape faith-based Christianity. Fair enough, but after deep-diving into Shin, people will see that Shinjin is not faith in the way it is used in Christianity. I think his influence is partially why the Shin Buddhism Translation Series (if I recall correctly) uses "Shinjin" and doesn't translate it. I think that is the right decision, but it is inaccurate to say Shinjin means only "true mind" it is much more than that and has a dimension of faith, but not in the way we use it ordinarily in the sense of simply believing something is true or happened.

Anyway, the second sentence is precisely what I was saying before "When shinjin is realized, Amida's mind (wisdom and compassion) and the practitioners mind of blind passions become one." The mind of Shinjin is not stained by the mind of blind passions, but it exists amidst it like a lotus.
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Concepts like speed of light, general relativity, radius of an atom and so on... have had a profound effect on our world view. They effect the way we nowadays interpret and understand the teaching of Dharma. Which is not like it used to be. Like for example the teachings about light and atoms in Madhyamaka, Abhidharma and Yogachara.

These important concepts describe the reality as it is, which is what Dharma also claims to do, i.e. "yatha-bhuta-jñana-darshana", 'seeing with wisdom how things actually are'. These things are not just concepts. They are much more than that.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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There is salvation by faith. There is faith as salvation.

Seeking clarity between each.

There is a treacherous sea of language. Translation of words

Faith.............trust.............shinjin.............salvation...........enlightenment.

A minefield.

The road goes on. The journey is home.

Bringing Thomas Merton back in..... "we have already received God, yet how far I have to go to find You in Whom I have already arrived."

And........"what we have to be is what we are"

Getting beyond concepts, superseding/transecending the conceptual paradox by the actual living of it.
Protecting oneself one protects others
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rodolfosancheznusa36
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

Post by rodolfosancheznusa36 »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:25 am
rodolfosancheznusa36 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:51 am So does that mean that I wouldn't get reborn in pure land if I didn't recieve Shinjin?
No, you can absolutely be born there if you don't receive Shinjin. As long as you recite the Nembutsu and aspire for birth. It's just that you won't attain Nirvāṇa immediately upon birth but rather continue a gradual learning process in a transformed birth.
Aemilius wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:13 am Honestly, I don't like the expression "receiving Shinjin". One gets the feeling that you do not have your own emotions, your own thoughts or your own mental events. That they have to "be received from some where". This feels strange to me, to say the least. I recommend that you read the Contemplation of Buddha Amitayus sutra, so you can read what Shakyamuni actually says there (about achieving rebirth in the pureland).
This is exactly the thing. Shinjin is not our own emotions, our own thoughts, or own mental events. We absolutely do have our own emotions, thoughts, and mental events, but they are definitely not the same as Shinjin. We are able to receive Shinjin in our minds and not allow our minds to stain it. This is just like a lotus which can be immersed in mud but not be stained by it.

This is a specifically Jōdo Shinshū concept, based on Shinran's writings and the seven patriarchs, not purely upon the sūtras.
Thanks so much Zhen Li! You've been a great help so far. I deeply appreciate it. Namu Amida Butsu 🙏📿
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Aemilius wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:07 am Concepts like speed of light, general relativity, radius of an atom and so on... have had a profound effect on our world view. They effect the way we nowadays interpret and understand the teaching of Dharma. Which is not like it used to be. Like for example the teachings about light and atoms in Madhyamaka, Abhidharma and Yogachara.
They don't affect my worldview because they are not a part of it.
Aemilius wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:07 amThese important concepts describe the reality as it is, which is what Dharma also claims to do, i.e. "yatha-bhuta-jñana-darshana", 'seeing with wisdom how things actually are'. These things are not just concepts. They are much more than that.
Suchness cannot be reduced to an equation or measurement.

There's a great story in the Tathāgataguhya: Mahāmaudgalyāyana’s attempt to measure the extent of Tathāgata's voice ends in failure (it starts on page 137 in my translation).
rodolfosancheznusa36 wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:57 am Thanks so much Zhen Li! You've been a great help so far. I deeply appreciate it. Namu Amida Butsu 🙏📿
If there's anything I have done that has been helpful, it is all owing to your willingness to ask questions to clear any doubts: thank you!
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Re: Do we still have to nembutsu everyday?

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:58 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:07 am Concepts like speed of light, general relativity, radius of an atom and so on... have had a profound effect on our world view. They effect the way we nowadays interpret and understand the teaching of Dharma. Which is not like it used to be. Like for example the teachings about light and atoms in Madhyamaka, Abhidharma and Yogachara.
They don't affect my worldview because they are not a part of it.
According to the Pureland sutras there is teaching of Dharma in the Pureland. May be you will learn about atoms, general relativity, madhyamaka and millions of other things concerning the nature of the universe, when you are in the Pureland.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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