Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

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Lethemyr
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Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by Lethemyr »

In contemporary Mahāyāna, pretty much everyone agrees that all sentient beings will one day become Buddhas. Some earlier thinkers, particularly in the Yogācāra tradition, seem to disagree, but I assume that the Lotus Sūtra's prominence put an end to that. All sentient beings have a Buddha nature and, given an infinite span of time, will eventually remove their obscurations and achieve enlightenment.

However, this naturally leads to the question of whether, one day, there will be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra. Will there come a time when the work of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas will be complete?

When this question is alluded to, I've seen roughly three responses:

1) No. The number of sentient beings is infinite and so, while every being will become enlightened, there will never be a time when there are no more beings in need of enlightening.

2) Yes. Eventually, there will be no more beings in need of enlightenment. Every sentient being will have crossed to the other shore.

3) It doesn't matter. Focus on things that matter.

While I've heard all of these responses, I don't think I've ever seen anyone back up their point with a scriptural citation or even the words of a great master. So that's what I'm asking for today. Does anyone have a citation from the canons or a great master that clearly addresses this question?

May all beings be free from suffering - 阿彌陀佛
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SkyFox
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by SkyFox »

Lethemyr wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:03 am In contemporary Mahāyāna, pretty much everyone agrees that all sentient beings will one day become Buddhas. Some earlier thinkers, particularly in the Yogācāra tradition, seem to disagree, but I assume that the Lotus Sūtra's prominence put an end to that. All sentient beings have a Buddha nature and, given an infinite span of time, will eventually remove their obscurations and achieve enlightenment.

Does anyone have a citation from the canons or a great master that clearly addresses this question?

May all beings be free from suffering - 阿彌陀佛
Is there a greater teacher than the Buddha himself? And he wasn't interested in metaphysical speculation but only the ending of suffering; that is why he refused to answered some questions.

Later on, Buddhist (and people in general) became more sophisticated and tried to answer questions regarding the world, samasara, heaven, karma, etc.. using the scriptures. Now we have a bunch of idea's on how we think the world works, which was probably never the intention of the Buddha; I believe that is why he said his teachings would only be intact for 500 years.

My point is that even if you had a "great" master answer your question, at best it would only be a speculation. I've personally heard support for both sides on whether samsara will one day be cleared out or not.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

There’s no samsara without sentient beings.
It’s not like you’d have a big empty parking lot with no cars in it. When a bunch of cars park together, it becomes a parking lot. When the cars are gone, so is the parking lot. It turns into a meadow.
Likewise with samsara and sentient beings.

Is it technically possible for all beings to become awakened? Yes, just as it is possible for a parking lot to become a meadow once the cars are gone.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

SkyFox wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:03 am
Lethemyr wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:03 am In contemporary Mahāyāna, pretty much everyone agrees that all sentient beings will one day become Buddhas. Some earlier thinkers, particularly in the Yogācāra tradition, seem to disagree, but I assume that the Lotus Sūtra's prominence put an end to that. All sentient beings have a Buddha nature and, given an infinite span of time, will eventually remove their obscurations and achieve enlightenment.

Does anyone have a citation from the canons or a great master that clearly addresses this question?

May all beings be free from suffering - 阿彌陀佛
Is there a greater teacher than the Buddha himself? And he wasn't interested in metaphysical speculation but only the ending of suffering; that is why he refused to answered some questions.

Later on, Buddhist (and people in general) became more sophisticated and tried to answer questions regarding the world, samasara, heaven, karma, etc.. using the scriptures. Now we have a bunch of idea's on how we think the world works, which was probably never the intention of the Buddha; I believe that is why he said his teachings would only be intact for 500 years.

My point is that even if you had a "great" master answer your question, at best it would only be a speculation. I've personally heard support for both sides on whether samsara will one day be cleared out or not.
:good: Yes. I personally find such speculations either anxiety inducing or a source of doubts. That might be jzst my weakness, however it is just better to focus on the problem at hand than speculate.
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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by ThreeVows »

I think this sutta is topical from the Pali Canon in general - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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futerko
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

I would ask whether anyone had ever actually met "a sentient being in samsara" or whether it was merely a representation of an idea? For there to be the possibility that we can all become Buddhas at some point in the future is conditional on it being an actual possibility. So by examining our view of such concepts - whether there are such "things" as Buddhas or sentient beings - we can discover where we might surpass conditioned ideas about the possibility of experiencing any such thing as an object in our horizon that is any different from how it already manifests. The Buddha is already the perfected nature.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

In other words, to give some context to the question.

Conventional theism asserts that we inhabit the finite world defined by change, loss, death and that the infinite state is therefore not-here, not-this.

This raises a number of issues - How can there be an infinite which is not all-pervasive? From where can you claim any knowledge of the very thing you are asserting to be elsewhere? If it is by definition "not-here, not-this" then you are defining yourself as being in the beyond of an infinite which has a limit!

This leads to all kinds of catch-22's - if the state of change is by definition not-infinite then we are doomed to endless cycling in samsara. We have defined the possibility of transformation itself to be a state of "not-God"!
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:40 am In other words, to give some context to the question.

Conventional theism asserts that we inhabit the finite world defined by change, loss, death and that the infinite state is therefore not-here, not-this.

This raises a number of issues - How can there be an infinite which is not all-pervasive? From where can you claim any knowledge of the very thing you are asserting to be elsewhere? If it is by definition "not-here, not-this" then you are defining yourself as being in the beyond of an infinite which has a limit!

This leads to all kinds of catch-22's - if the state of change is by definition not-infinite then we are doomed to endless cycling in samsara. We have defined the possibility of transformation itself to be a state of "not-God"!
Well, you are bringing up conventional theism,
which Buddhism is not.

There is a general misunderstanding about what samsara is. I think this is largely due to visual aids such as that circular “wheel Of Life” cartoon that’s a traditional Tibetan painting. It looks like Yama holding a giant pizza with the six realms, one realm on each slice. It portrays samsara as places, in the way that our earthly existence is a ‘place’.
This is not necessarily inaccurate, just a bit misleading. Nor does it mean that samsaric realms are merely representations of different human moods or psychological states, which is how some people reckon things.

Suppose that everybody in a room is hungry. Maybe they’ve been meeting all morning and they are eager to go to lunch. So, technically, yes, you have a specific room full of hungry people. But it’s not a “hungry people room”. It is only a room full of hungry people because the people in that room happen to be hungry. Outside of what is happening to them, theres no hungry room (likewise, beyond the experience of hungry ghosts, there’s no hungry ghost realm).

In other words, there aren’t any “realm-rooms” in samsara waiting to be filled up or emptied. There is simply the becoming of humans or devas or animals or whatever, and because there are infinite beings, there is infinite potential or possibilities for becoming devas or humans or animals or pretas or whatever.

So, while the possibilities of becoming are infinite, it doesn’t mean that samsaric rebirth has to go on forever. The point is that taking rebirth in samsara isn’t completely inevitable. If it were, Buddha’s teachings would be pointless.

So, “sentient beings are endless” and “samsara is infinite” really refers more to the infinite potential for rebirth. (Rebirth is always a discussion about potential).
And even though we can also say that the number of beings in samsara is uncountable, and constantly refilling, it doesn’t have to be.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:08 pm
futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:40 am In other words, to give some context to the question.

Conventional theism asserts that we inhabit the finite world defined by change, loss, death and that the infinite state is therefore not-here, not-this.

This raises a number of issues - How can there be an infinite which is not all-pervasive? From where can you claim any knowledge of the very thing you are asserting to be elsewhere? If it is by definition "not-here, not-this" then you are defining yourself as being in the beyond of an infinite which has a limit!

This leads to all kinds of catch-22's - if the state of change is by definition not-infinite then we are doomed to endless cycling in samsara. We have defined the possibility of transformation itself to be a state of "not-God"!
Well, you are bringing up conventional theism,
which Buddhism is not.

There is a general misunderstanding about what samsara is. I think this is largely due to visual aids such as that circular “wheel Of Life” cartoon that’s a traditional Tibetan painting. It looks like Yama holding a giant pizza with the six realms, one realm on each slice. It portrays samsara as places, in the way that our earthly existence is a ‘place’.
This is not necessarily inaccurate, just a bit misleading. Nor does it mean that samsaric realms are merely representations of different human moods or psychological states, which is how some people reckon things.

Suppose that everybody in a room is hungry. Maybe they’ve been meeting all morning and they are eager to go to lunch. So, technically, yes, you have a specific room full of hungry people. But it’s not a “hungry people room”. It is only a room full of hungry people because the people in that room happen to be hungry. Outside of what is happening to them, theres no hungry room (likewise, beyond the experience of hungry ghosts, there’s no hungry ghost realm).

In other words, there aren’t any “realm-rooms” in samsara waiting to be filled up or emptied. There is simply the becoming of humans or devas or animals or whatever, and because there are infinite beings, there is infinite potential or possibilities for becoming devas or humans or animals or pretas or whatever.

So, while the possibilities of becoming are infinite, it doesn’t mean that samsaric rebirth has to go on forever. The point is that taking rebirth in samsara isn’t completely inevitable. If it were, Buddha’s teachings would be pointless.

So, “sentient beings are endless” and “samsara is infinite” really refers more to the infinite potential for rebirth. (Rebirth is always a discussion about potential).
And even though we can also say that the number of beings in samsara is uncountable, and constantly refilling, it doesn’t have to be.
Yes, agreed. Why then use the term "refilling" if there is no container to be filled? If any and all attempts to mentally grasp this nature is doomed, then we are left with only one option in terms of our own position in regard to any infinite. It becomes somewhat moot.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by SkyFox »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:39 am
:good: Yes. I personally find such speculations either anxiety inducing or a source of doubts. That might be just be my weakness, however it is just better to focus on the problem at hand than speculate.
No, not just you. I almost had a mental meltdown when I started learning more about Buddhism and it's implications regarding love ones and separation. Now I focus more on the practical side of Buddhism and use it as as guideline to live, which has made me happier and less anxious. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

for example, I was at a family funeral in March. The priest articulated the view that the infinite lay elsewhere as an ultimate goal. My aunt expressed the "opposite" secular humanist view that the ultimate was nothing whatsoever. In fact they were both expressing the same idea that there is a container universe populated by "beings". It was the articulation of this relationship at the level of a sincerely held belief which itself defined their actual relationship to "reality".
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:36 pm Why then use the term "refilling" if there is no container to be filled?
It just means that beings keep becoming…
Let’s not say, “in” samsara,
Let’s say that beings keep becoming
“samsarically” until they emerge “Buddhafully”

In other words, it’s not so much about a “where” beings emerge, but “how”, in what form or state of being.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:48 pm
futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:36 pm Why then use the term "refilling" if there is no container to be filled?
It just means that beings keep becoming…
Let’s not say, “in” samsara,
Let’s say that beings keep becoming
“samsarically” until they emerge “Buddhafully”

In other words, it’s not so much about a “where” beings emerge, but “how”, in what form or state of being.
Yes but again, it is entirely circular. Of course we are perceiving experience a certain way. To assert this as truth requires an unfounded metaphysical assertion - "I only believe my eyes" or suchlike. Therefore we either commit to imputing ungrounded metaphysics or we realise that we have no basis in experience for any such speculation. It is reductionist insofar as it discounts its own cognitive activity in imputing a cause where none can be found.

In other words, a "state of being" is posited as something entirely known, but there is no meta-position perspective from which that could ever happen without an imaginary construct.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

the point made is in many ways too trivial to take seriously - if there were such a thing as an independent nature, then by its very nature it would be independent and not impinge in the slightest upon our own experience.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by Inedible »

The way I understand this is that everyone who has ever taken a Bodhisattva Vow has promised to personally accomplish this without any help. Breaking that vow is one of the most serious possible transgressions, so it is common to be told to take it seriously and not make the vow too quickly. It is one of the reasons why a person might choose the Theravada over Mahayana. Until you know how to get yourself out of Samsara, it doesn't make sense to promise to save anyone else. Just this much has a near perfect failure rate.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:31 pm the point made is in many ways too trivial to take seriously - if there were such a thing as an independent nature, then by its very nature it would be independent and not impinge in the slightest upon our own experience.
Who says there is an independent nature?
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:43 pm
futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:31 pm the point made is in many ways too trivial to take seriously - if there were such a thing as an independent nature, then by its very nature it would be independent and not impinge in the slightest upon our own experience.
Who says there is an independent nature?
The priest who delivered the sermon at the funeral imputing eternalism and my aunt who on her own side imputed annihilationism - the two conceptual takes which predominate ordinary discourse on the nature of reality.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Inedible wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:03 pm The way I understand this is that everyone who has ever taken a Bodhisattva Vow has promised to personally accomplish this without any help. Breaking that vow is one of the most serious possible transgressions, so it is common to be told to take it seriously and not make the vow too quickly. It is one of the reasons why a person might choose the Theravada over Mahayana. Until you know how to get yourself out of Samsara, it doesn't make sense to promise to save anyone else. Just this much has a near perfect failure rate.
Another understanding of the Mahayana vow is also to attain buddhahood in order to liberate beings. If you know how to get out of samsara, then just be a Buddha.

I don’t know if it’s possible without help, because then what need for teachers?
I’ve never heard of that.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:46 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:43 pm
futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:31 pm the point made is in many ways too trivial to take seriously - if there were such a thing as an independent nature, then by its very nature it would be independent and not impinge in the slightest upon our own experience.
Who says there is an independent nature?
The priest who delivered the sermon at the funeral imputing eternalism and my aunt who on her own side imputed annihilationism - the two conceptual takes which predominate ordinary discourse on the nature of reality.
Yeah, that’s not the buddhist view.
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Re: Will there be no more sentient beings in saṃsāra one day?

Post by futerko »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:52 pm
futerko wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:46 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:43 pm

Who says there is an independent nature?
The priest who delivered the sermon at the funeral imputing eternalism and my aunt who on her own side imputed annihilationism - the two conceptual takes which predominate ordinary discourse on the nature of reality.
Yeah, that’s not the buddhist view.
Precisely - it is the "conventional" "unexamined" view. There are no such beings stuck in samsara in a Buddhist view.
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