Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by ThreeVows »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:47 pm - Please could you give a reference to the text and page numbers these citations are from?
Oh sorry, the other one is from "Practice of Dzogchen" page 377ff.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by krodha »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pmPerhaps we can agree that cessation of mind(sem).., means cessation of mental events; i.e. thinking, rnam rtog...
That is not what the cessation of mind means.

Thoughts can cease in gnas pa and sems can still be fully in tact, which is why gnas pa is considered a deviation.
Last edited by krodha on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by bryandavis »

futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:19 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:13 pm
futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:37 am The Berzin archive lists three types of rigpa:

Basis rigpa (gzhi’i rig-pa) – the working basis that we all have. Although it pervades all moments of sem, like sesame oil pervades a sesame seed, we normally do not recognize it. The next two are the two aspects of rigpa that we recognize on the path.

Effulgent rigpa (rtsal-gyi rig-pa) – rigpa in its aspect of actively giving rise to and cognizing pure appearances in response to things. Although it has all three aspects of rigpa, the spontaneous establishing aspect is more prominent. We recognize it first.

Essence rigpa (ngo-bo’i rig-pa) – what underlies effulgent rigpa. It is rigpa in its aspect of being the cognitive space (klong, spacious awareness) – referring to other-voidness – that allows for the arising and cognizing of pure appearances in response to things. Although it too has all three aspects of rigpa, the primal purity aspect is more prominent. We recognize it only after recognizing effulgent rigpa.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... d-dzogchen
I see, this kind of clarifies it a bit. Although wouldn't you eventually recognize both kinds of path rigpa regardless of if you practice mainly trekcho or thogal?
Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Kai lord »

bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm
futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:19 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:13 pm


I see, this kind of clarifies it a bit. Although wouldn't you eventually recognize both kinds of path rigpa regardless of if you practice mainly trekcho or thogal?
Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
Yes Gelugpa tends to treat Rigpa as basis, some of them even called it the subtlest clear light of mind. Just see below:

Major Facets of Dzogchen
Now in the dzogchen tradition, which we find in Nyingma (and in many of the Kagyu systems, borrowed from Nyingma), we have a discussion of what’s called rigpa (pure awareness). Rigpa is referring to the clear light mind when it has this manifest understanding of voidness. So there’s a difference: rigpa itself is not stained by these habits of grasping for impossible existence and so on, because it has that full understanding of voidness. So there’s a difference between clear light mind and rigpa; rigpa is a subcategory of clear light mind.


Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:50 pm The four chogzhags are practiced in both. Simply put, the distinction between the two is impure or pure appearances as the path, leading to slightly different results (dematerialization or great transference).
So does the fact that there are different results for the same path, make one of them reversible?
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Natan »

Passing By wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 5:13 pm In the now locked thread, Malcolm mentioned that rigpa is actually subcategorized by trekcho and thogal and that the inseparability of kadak and lhundrub actually corresponds to thogal.

What does trekcho correspond to in this case? It's interesting since trekcho instructions also contain numerous introductions to this inseparability and sustaining of its recognition via the Four Chogzhags or the Nine sets of Three relaxations so it seemed like both had the same rigpa and result.
It's better to understand kadag and lhundrub as inseparable nature and Tregcho and togal as paths.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

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krodha wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:44 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pmPerhaps we can agree that cessation of mind(sem).., means cessation of mental events; i.e. thinking, rnam rtog...
That is not what the cessation of mind means.

Thoughts can cease in gnas pa and sems can still be fully in tact, which is why gnas pa is considered a deviation.
- Please try to stay within the context of the citation from Longchenpa, rather than adding in your own ideas, such as "gnas pa", whatever that is. The topic being discussed is trekcho.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:21 pm
krodha wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:44 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pmPerhaps we can agree that cessation of mind(sem).., means cessation of mental events; i.e. thinking, rnam rtog...
That is not what the cessation of mind means.

Thoughts can cease in gnas pa and sems can still be fully in tact, which is why gnas pa is considered a deviation.
- Please try to stay within the context of the citation from Longchenpa, rather than adding in your own ideas, such as "gnas pa", whatever that is. The topic being discussed is trekcho.
It’s not his own ideas, nepa is the calm state, i.e. what is culitivated in shine, because it is essentially just temporarily blocking thought, it is not liberative in the manner of trekchod, the union of shamatha/vipaysana, etc.

There are a million and one texts across Tibetan traditions warning of the deviation of grasping non-thought, stillness, bliss, etc.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by conebeckham »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:18 pm
Seeker12 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:08 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pm - Perhaps we can agree that cessation of mind(sem).., means cessation of mental events; i.e. thinking, rnam rtog...
FWIW, again Longchenpa, if it's of interest:
When the turbidity of the mind [sems] and mental factors [sems byung] subsides, luminous primordial wisdom, the nature of the mind, arises from within. To habituate oneself to this is called the path to enlightenment. It is quite simply to persevere in this practice, remaining uninterruptedly, day and night, in a state in which sleepiness and idleness are abandoned. As it is said in the Pancakrama,

"When all activity of mind and mental factors
Comes to complete rest, it is then that
Luminous, primordial wisdom manifests,
Free of concepts, without center or periphery."

In this context, the mind is defined as the cognitions that assume the existence of the three worlds and examine them accordingly. Since they are the turbidity that conceals suchness, if they are made to subside completely, one has access to nonconceptual primordial wisdom. As it is said in the Satyadvayavibhanga,

"The mind and mental factors are the cognitions
That falsely ascribe existence to the triple world."

The detecting cognition [rtog pa] that perceives the general presence of an object when it first sees it is the 'mind'. It is the first moment of knowledge of an utpala lotus (for example). Then, when the particular features of the object are adverted to, there is the mental factor of examination or discernment [dpyod pa]. These are the cognitions of the flower's blue color, its round shape, its pistil and stamens, and so on. As it is said in the Madhyantavibhaga,

"That which sees the thing is consciousness.
Its features then are seen by mental factors."

And as the Abhidharmakosha says, 'Detecting cognition and discernment: coarse and fine'. The detecting cognition and the discernment, which are habitually labeled as mind and mental factors, are arrested in enlightenment. As it is said in the Introduction to the Middle Way,

"The tinder of phenomena is all consumed,
And this is peace, the dharmakaya of the Conquerers.
There is no origin and no cessation.
The mind is stopped, the kaya manifests."

Moreover, when the self-cognizing primordial wisdom is wrapped in the webs of defilement caused by the illusion of duality, it is called 'mind'. For it consists in the nonvirtuous mental factors of detecting cognition and discernment. Liberation from this is called buddhahood. For even though (in that state) an object is known, there is a freedom from duality, as implied in detecting cognition and discernment. As it is said in Praises of the Mind Vajra,

"When it is enveloped in defilement's webs,
"It is what may be called the 'mind'.
But when this from defilement has been freed,
'Buddhahood' it will be named."
The detecting cognition [rtog pa] that perceives the general presence of an object when it first sees it is the 'mind'.


rtog pa means thought

- Thanks. :good:
Not merely "thought."
It can also mean the comprehension of something--in this sense, the "detecting cognition" is a good translation. Your definition of rtog pa as thought, in the sense of a discursive concept, is more akin to bsam pa.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by conebeckham »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:40 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:21 pm
krodha wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:44 pm
That is not what the cessation of mind means.

Thoughts can cease in gnas pa and sems can still be fully in tact, which is why gnas pa is considered a deviation.
- Please try to stay within the context of the citation from Longchenpa, rather than adding in your own ideas, such as "gnas pa", whatever that is. The topic being discussed is trekcho.
It’s not his own ideas, nepa is the calm state, i.e. what is culitivated in shine, because it is essentially just temporarily blocking thought, it is not liberative in the manner of trekchod, the union of shamatha/vipaysana, etc.

There are a million and one texts across Tibetan traditions warning of the deviation of grasping non-thought, stillness, bliss, etc.
This is why it is imperative that at some point a student is instructed to work with thoughts themselves. The idea that conceptual thinking is the "enemy" is mistaken. For beginning meditators, it is good to be able to "slow your roll" so that one can identify thoughts and discursive thinking, and the attention paid to "gaps" allows for opportunity to glimpse non-conceptual awareness, for sure. Shi-Nay and Lhagtong are worth practicing. But the result of "abiding," or "Ney-pa" in a state of thought cessation is not the goal. Agreed.

It needs to be emphasized that the nature of thoughts is primordially not different from the non-conceptual awareness that can sometimes be experienced in the gaps. I know Dzogchenpas stress that their practice is "beyond mind," but I'm pretty sure the instructions deal with sems as display......
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Malcolm »

Rtog dpyod are translations of a pair of terms: vitarka and vicara. These always exists as a pair, and mean initial attention and sustained attention, and accompany all minds of the desire realm. These two mental factors drop off in the second dhyana.


These terms are also used where we would say investigation and analysis, respectively.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:56 am Rtog dpyod are translations of a pair of terms: vitarka and vicara. These always exists as a pair, and mean initial attention and sustained attention, and accompany all minds of the desire realm. These two mental factors drop off in the second dhyana.


These terms are also used where we would say investigation and analysis, respectively.
Thanks Malcolm and Cone, this distinction is very helpful to me, so rather than discrete thought it relates to a kind of initial subjective orientation?

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... _variables

For conversation reference I found these on Rigpa wiki, it makes me wonder how directly this is tied to visual perception, because that would seem to tie in some stuff about using the gaze.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:28 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:56 am Rtog dpyod are translations of a pair of terms: vitarka and vicara. These always exists as a pair, and mean initial attention and sustained attention, and accompany all minds of the desire realm. These two mental factors drop off in the second dhyana.


These terms are also used where we would say investigation and analysis, respectively.
Thanks Malcolm and Cone, this distinction is very helpful to me, so rather than discrete thought it relates to a kind of initial subjective orientation?

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... _variables

For conversation reference I found these on Rigpa wiki, it makes me wonder how directly this is tied to visual perception, because that would seem to tie in some stuff about using the gaze.
Rtog, in the context supplied above, has that connotation.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Josef »

Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:21 pm
krodha wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:44 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pmPerhaps we can agree that cessation of mind(sem).., means cessation of mental events; i.e. thinking, rnam rtog...
That is not what the cessation of mind means.

Thoughts can cease in gnas pa and sems can still be fully in tact, which is why gnas pa is considered a deviation.


- Please try to stay within the context of the citation from Longchenpa, rather than adding in your own ideas, such as "gnas pa", whatever that is. The topic being discussed is trekcho.
It’s well within the context and is something that could have easily been integrated into your understanding in the previous thread of squandered opportunities.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:50 pm
So does the fact that there are different results for the same path, make one of them reversible?
No. The paths are slightly different but underlying principles are the same.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by futerko »

bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm
futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:19 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:13 pm


I see, this kind of clarifies it a bit. Although wouldn't you eventually recognize both kinds of path rigpa regardless of if you practice mainly trekcho or thogal?
Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
Yes, Berzin's descriptions have an obvious Gelug slant.

The 21 Nails couches the three somewhat differently;

1 - khyabrig, all pervading awareness
2 - samrig (bsam rig), consciousness-awareness.
3 - yerig, primordial-awareness
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by PeterC »

futerko wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:43 am
The 21 Nails couches the three somewhat differently;

1 - khyabrig, all pervading awareness
2 - samrig (bsam rig), consciousness-awareness.
3 - yerig, primordial-awareness
That cycle also does not use the words trekchod or thogal - consistent with how that lineage (correctly) does not encourage making a hard distinction between the two practices.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Jules 09 »

conebeckham wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:29 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:40 pm
Jules 09 wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:21 pm

- Please try to stay within the context of the citation from Longchenpa, rather than adding in your own ideas, such as "gnas pa", whatever that is. The topic being discussed is trekcho.
It’s not his own ideas, nepa is the calm state, i.e. what is culitivated in shine, because it is essentially just temporarily blocking thought, it is not liberative in the manner of trekchod, the union of shamatha/vipaysana, etc.

There are a million and one texts across Tibetan traditions warning of the deviation of grasping non-thought, stillness, bliss, etc.
This is why it is imperative that at some point a student is instructed to work with thoughts themselves. The idea that conceptual thinking is the "enemy" is mistaken. For beginning meditators, it is good to be able to "slow your roll" so that one can identify thoughts and discursive thinking, and the attention paid to "gaps" allows for opportunity to glimpse non-conceptual awareness, for sure. Shi-Nay and Lhagtong are worth practicing. But the result of "abiding," or "Ney-pa" in a state of thought cessation is not the goal. Agreed.

It needs to be emphasized that the nature of thoughts is primordially not different from the non-conceptual awareness that can sometimes be experienced in the gaps. I know Dzogchenpas stress that their practice is "beyond mind," but I'm pretty sure the instructions deal with sems as display......
It needs to be emphasized that the nature of thoughts is primordially not different from the non-conceptual awareness that can sometimes be experienced in the gaps. I know Dzogchenpas stress that their practice is "beyond mind," but I'm pretty sure the instructions deal with sems as display.

It is said that when the expression (display) dawns as sherab, as knowledge - when the expression knows its own nature - it is liberated, there is freedom. When the expression moves as thought, as thinking, it is bewildered - there is delusion.
In this distinction lies the whole difference.

In other words, whether the expression is liberated as knowledge (sherab) or confused as thinking is determined by the practitioner knowing or not knowing his or her own nature. In the essence (ngo bo) itself, there is no difference, it's not improved by recognizing or made worse by not recognizing.

When the expression moves as knowledge, it is liberated. When the expression moves as thought, it is deluded.

This is what makes the whole difference. To be a normal sentient being (sem chan, possessor of mind) is to never recognize the nature of this expression.
Last edited by Jules 09 on Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Jules 09 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:33 am
conebeckham wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:29 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:40 pm
It’s not his own ideas, nepa is the calm state, i.e. what is culitivated in shine, because it is essentially just temporarily blocking thought, it is not liberative in the manner of trekchod, the union of shamatha/vipaysana, etc.

There are a million and one texts across Tibetan traditions warning of the deviation of grasping non-thought, stillness, bliss, etc.
This is why it is imperative that at some point a student is instructed to work with thoughts themselves. The idea that conceptual thinking is the "enemy" is mistaken. For beginning meditators, it is good to be able to "slow your roll" so that one can identify thoughts and discursive thinking, and the attention paid to "gaps" allows for opportunity to glimpse non-conceptual awareness, for sure. Shi-Nay and Lhagtong are worth practicing. But the result of "abiding," or "Ney-pa" in a state of thought cessation is not the goal. Agreed.

It needs to be emphasized that the nature of thoughts is primordially not different from the non-conceptual awareness that can sometimes be experienced in the gaps. I know Dzogchenpas stress that their practice is "beyond mind," but I'm pretty sure the instructions deal with sems as display......
It needs to be emphasized that the nature of thoughts is primordially not different from the non-conceptual awareness that can sometimes be experienced in the gaps. I know Dzogchenpas stress that their practice is "beyond mind," but I'm pretty sure the instructions deal with sems as display.

It is said that when the expression (display) dawns as sherab, as knowledge - when the expression knows its own nature - it is liberated, there is freedom. When the expression moves as thought, as thinking, it is bewildered - there is delusion.
In this distinction lies the whole difference.

In other words, whether the expression is liberated as knowledge (sherab) or confused as thinking is determined by the practitioner knowing or not knowing his or her own nature. In the essence (ngo bo) itself, there is no difference, it's not improved by recognizing or made worse by not recognizing.

When the expression moves as knowledge, it is liberated. When the expression moves as thought, it is deluded.

This is what makes the whole difference. To be a normal sentient being (sem chan, possessor of mind) is to never recognize the nature of this expression.
I imagine everyone in this thread has, at the least, introduction or pointing out and has an understanding that just thinking and being in concepts is not the point, we probably don’t need a lecture from you on that.

However, the above means pretty much nothing without context clarifying and/or defining “thought” and it’s liberation, and so far in these conversations your idea of what thought or conceptualization is is about as fuzzy and broad as it can get, and in the end you seem to equate movement with thought.

And here you are (I guess) trying to correct Cone and claim that the nature of thought is different from the nature of mind?

I’m all for supporting ones view with quotes, but I think you should quote less and talk more, it is almost always unclear what you are trying to say with the things you quote, and the reader is left to make assumptions, only to have you turn around and quote something else, again without explanation.
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Re: Trekcho rigpa vs thogal rigpa

Post by Malcolm »

bryandavis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:47 pm
futerko wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:19 pm
Passing By wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:13 pm


I see, this kind of clarifies it a bit. Although wouldn't you eventually recognize both kinds of path rigpa regardless of if you practice mainly trekcho or thogal?
Yes, I get the impression they correspond to Guru Garab Dorje's three statements respectively, and with the idea of integration in the final instance, though those with more experience can clarify whether this is the case or not.
I was always taught that Rigpa is knowing the basis, ones natural state. The basis of course the underlying natural condition as described in things such as Samantabhadras prayer and elsewhere. So when Berzin uses "Basis Rigpa" and says "the working basis we all have" and then ".....normally do not recognize it." Then what does not recognizing it have to do with rigpa?

This is Rangjung Yeshes definition of Basis Rigpa - གཞིའི་རིག་པ་: The fundamental awareness.

Maybe Berzins backgound gets in the way?
(1)The conscious aspect of the basis does not recognize or not recognize it’s own state, hence it is prior to buddhahood or sentient beinghood— this is called “ignorance identical with the cause.”

(2) When the basis first appears there is a moment of duality, this is called “the connate ignorance.”Liberation and delusion are only possible when the basis appears (gzhi snang) from the basis. Because there is a distinction between the basis and the conscious (shes pa) aspect of the basis, liberation or delusion is possible. The conscious aspect either recognizes the appearance of the basis as its own state and becomes wisdom (shes rab) and is liberated as “Samantabhadra” or (3) it does not recognize the appearance of the basis and enters delusion as a sentient being because of the imputing ignorance.

To understand this precisely one needs to understand the triune pristine consciousness of the basis as well as the triune ignorance which can obscure the conscious aspect of basis. This is all explained pretty clearly in Buddhahood in This Life in topic 1 and 2. I detail the precise progression of the usage of terms in the text, which begins with defining one’s unmodified consciousness as the basis. The distinction between the basis and its conscious aspect may be found briefly described on pp 94-95 of Tantra Without Syllables.
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