Can meditation be bad?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8883
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Astus »

Meditation can be called bad if it does not yield the results expected. Whether it has some difficulties or not is another matter.

'Mendicants, there are four ways of practice. What four? Painful practice with slow insight, painful practice with swift insight, pleasant practice with slow insight, and pleasant practice with swift insight.'
(Vitthārasutta, cf. Distinctly Ascertaining the Meanings 1.32)

There is meditation, and there is correct meditation (sammāsamādhi/samyaksamādhi).

'And what is noble right immersion with its vital conditions and its prerequisites? They are: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness. Unification of mind with these seven factors as prerequisites is called noble right immersion with its vital conditions and also with its prerequisites.'
(Samādhisutta, Mahācattārīsakasutta))

There is meditation, and there is the perfection of meditation (dhyānapāramitā).

'Moreover, the tīrthikas, śrāvakas aand bodhisattvas acquire all the dhyānas and samāpattis. There are three kinds of faults in the tīrthika dhyāna: attachment to enjoyment (āsvādanābhiniveśa), wrong view (mithyadṛṣti) and pride (abhimāna). In the śrāvaka dhyāna, loving-kindness (maitrī) and compassion (karuṇā) are slight; they do not have at their disposal a knowledge in regard to the Dharma sufficiently sharp as to progressively penetrate the true nature of dharmas; being exclusively interested in their own selves, they destroy the lineage of Buddhas [within themselves]. In the bodhisattva dhyāna there are no defects; wishing to unite all the attributes of Buddha, they do not forget beings during the dhyāna and they endlessly extend their kindness even to insects.'
(MPPS 28.5)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Matt J »

I think it is important to approach meditation with eyes wide open. Whether some meditators practice incorrectly, have pre-existing conditions, or whether meditation can lead to difficult mental states, people have had various negative experiences with meditation.

Overview:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ls/372766/

For resources:

https://www.cheetahhouse.org/
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by anagarika »

It most certainly is possible to meditate with wrong view or bhava tanha. This would probably make the meditation "bad" (miccha) in the Buddhist sense, although it may still be helpful from secular perspective (reduced anxiety, more calmness etc.).

I have quite a lot of experience meditating with subtle bhava tanha. If this tendency is present and not detected in the mind, it leads to subtle craving for elated mental states, absorption, ecstasy, supernormal states of consciousness etc. What´s interesting is that the trouble begins only after I leave the cushion. There are mostly two scenarios that follow: Either irritation resulting from the fact of being back in the world of the five senses ("this level of existence is stupid, who needs a gross body anyways, let´s go back to the cozy samadhi"), or a sort of unnatural stimulation and enhanced tendency to grasp mental objects. The latter is subjectively much more pleasant as the mind feels very strong, euphoric and untouchable - the boosted attention makes everything it grasps look nearly fascinating. However, this can lead to poor sense restraint and heedlessness, which means the mind can quickly become cluttered again.

On the other hand, if meditation is done without any trace of bhava tanha, the after effects are much different. When the mind emerges from meditation, it stays steady and calm for a very long time - neither irritated by sense objects, nor attracted to them. I call this mind a "padded cell" - it is very stable and anything that comes into it doesn´t bounce off the walls to produce feelings of aversion or infatuation. There is just clear knowing, but no grasping or clinging.
User avatar
Nosta
Posts: 930
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:28 pm

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Nosta »

I remember some study saying that sometimes meditation on mindfulness can be bad because some people will start to give to much attention to stuff happening in their bodies and freak out with it. I mean, in the context of that study they were refering to attention to pain for example.
Mirror
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:53 am

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Mirror »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:06 am
leech_noggin wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:21 am Concentration meditation. Given 1000 thing, when you concentrate on 1 you ignore 999. So it might better be called "ignoring meditation". And that silence that it brings could be called the silence that comes with ignorance. So that's something to consider. There's a tradeoff there.
Yes, and that's what it is - practicing with the minds apprehension of an object, which is what the mind does - apprehend objects. So, we are doing it all the time anyway, only in a more deliberate way in mediation.
I don't see anything wrong with "ignoring meditation". Concentration leads to developing samadhi and samadhi is very very useful tool for other meditations. With samadhi one can meditate undisturbed. Samadhi is also very important in Pure Land rebirth, because achieving buddhanusmrti samadhi guarantees one's rebirth.

Also by "ignoring" our thoughts and not indulging in them we can avoid creating negative karma.
Memento mori
Remember that you die
User avatar
curtstein
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:34 pm
Location: rockville, maryland, usa
Contact:

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by curtstein »

The published research on "meditation-related challenges" (by Lindahl, Britton, and so forth) is pretty weak when it comes to causality. It's important to note that all such published research is couched in terms of meditation RELATED challenges. To say that any given issue/challenge/difficulty/etc was actually caused by meditation is a bit of a stretch. Although I think that Robert Aitken has made a pretty good case that sitting full lotus farked up his knees.

There is a group called "Cheetah House" that offers "treatment" for so-called meditation-related challenges. Their website has a long list of "symptoms" that can indicate when an individual might be in danger of experiencing such "challenges". The list includes (you cannot make this up):

laughing
increased faith in Buddhism
increased empathy
elevated mood
any change in worldview
enhanced ability to perform cognitive functions
"paranormal" beliefs (like the weird stuff in the Lotus Sutra??)
"increased cognitive processing" (which apparently means being able to think faster?)
clarity
mental stillness
"meta-cognition" (which just means any explicit awareness of the fact that one is thinking)
increased ability to visualize
any increase or decrease in either appetite or weight
the cessation of nightmares and/or the cessation of sleep paralysis
any change in sleep (more/less/better/worse - anything)
any change "in how the practitioner conceives of himself or herself"
any change in motivations or goals
developing a closer relationship with a meditation community
developing a closer relationship with a teacher
becoming more extraverted and/or friendly

https://www.cheetahhouse.org/symptoms
"there's no one here. there's only you and me." leonard cohen
https://www.mindisbuddha.org/
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I get what they are trying to do, but man that site is weird, not even sure where to begin.

I suppose if you were someone who, for example felt you could no longer turn to a spiritual teacher or community for help (say after an abuse scandal or something) it might have some possibilities, but their ‘menu’ of services for individual practitioners was confusing, I found it hard to make sense of what they actually do.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Kim O'Hara
Former staff member
Posts: 7063
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:09 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:38 am I get what they are trying to do, but man that site is weird, not even sure where to begin.

I suppose if you were someone who, for example felt you could no longer turn to a spiritual teacher or community for help (say after an abuse scandal or something) it might have some possibilities, but their ‘menu’ of services for individual practitioners was confusing, I found it hard to make sense of what they actually do.
It's new to me so I poked around. Found https://www.cheetahhouse.org/about-us which has details of the Team and a very loose statement of aims and assumptions but nothing about 'why' and nothing about 'how'. As you say, weird.

:coffee:
Kim
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17089
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I get the purpose of it to a degree, without even addressing methods though, I imagine the main people it would be relevant for are secular meditators and people estranged from their spiritual community or teacher seeking this kind of help.

In any other case ones teacher and lineage would pretty much always be able to furnish better advice than a group of strangers with a somewhat random range of qualifications.

It’s also a combo of basically peer counseling around meditation, but then there is this professional credentialing emphasis too…I don’t get it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
ChasingMonkeys
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu May 18, 2023 7:09 pm

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by ChasingMonkeys »

My 2 cents:

I love meditation and I think that in general it's for the most part good for almost everyone almost all of the time. For different reasons...

But for some people, for example people who has some mental illness their dealing with, say for example someone with a childhood abuse trauma - going "inside" or focusing on the body can be HIGHLY triggering for them, in a bad way, if they don't have the instructions and support of an professional. (I would cite research but it's not in English).

In different cases of people going into intensive retreats, especially if it's their first time, such deep traumas(or sankaras) can come up sometimes without the person was even aware of the trauma or the events that created it. In such cases, the retreat can be an incredibly healing experience of awareness, acknowledgement and letting go but sometimes it goes sideways, rarely it goes sideways really bad.

I'm not trying to portray some kind of horror story to alienate people from meditation, on the contrary, i think meditation is and incredible thing but it's important to remeber, IMHO, that the usual rule of just keep at it and it will work itself out is not the healthiest for the margins not the healthiest for all people all the time

n general though, and more related to your original question : that depends of your approach to meditation, and kind of stream of thought 'you are a part of', but for me and many others meditation is about meeting the world(including myself) as it is and making peace with it so to speak. This angle should resolve most of the normal ups and downs of how good a meditation feels - it is not the right measure, the right measure is not measure. Measure in this cases is either attachment or distraction (both actually), so just keeping at it, from moment to moment is best. Then again, stay safe, and best find a good and loving teacher and sangha for proper instructions and support.

Cheers :juggling:
Last edited by ChasingMonkeys on Sun May 21, 2023 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
jet.urgyen
Posts: 2753
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by jet.urgyen »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:06 pm When scientists say that it can, i guess that maybe it can actually be bad not because of meditation, (maybe call it karma? Or just illness.) and when it gives bad effects, they're just temporary and only do good in the long run, like heals you slowly, which can be hard to see, for example, would it be a fact that it does only good objectively, which is hard to observe, not just in the long run, but like really, even if it hurts? Theres a pop culture saying 'just if it feels good, doesn't mean its right',so if it feels bad, couldn't it be even then beneficial?
well, the shamata one finds in hinayana systems doesn't help me much. i find really hard to retake normal life after it.
true dharma is inexpressible.

The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9437
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:06 pm When scientists say that it can, i guess that maybe it can actually be bad not because of meditation, (maybe call it karma? Or just illness.) and when it gives bad effects, they're just temporary and only do good in the long run, like heals you slowly, which can be hard to see, for example, would it be a fact that it does only good objectively, which is hard to observe, not just in the long run, but like really, even if it hurts? Theres a pop culture saying 'just if it feels good, doesn't mean its right',so if it feels bad, couldn't it be even then beneficial?
What is bad and what is good?
Meditation sends a person in the opposite direction of where they are usually going: instead of being focused outwardly, it focuses you inwardly.

That can quiet you down, and being quieted can make everything else seem much louder. All kinds of thoughts and feelings can come to the surface. Are you ready to deal with that? If you are, then meditation is good. If you aren’t, then maybe it’s not so good.

Meditation itself is neither good nor bad. What matters had to do with the person meditating.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
mahdiebrahimi
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:09 am

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by mahdiebrahimi »

hy
i read a blog post in a persian site caled aramia.me
in this blog wrote:
In 2020, Matt Hirshberg, lead researcher, investigated whether mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) might have negative health effects. In the results section of this article published on the Cambridge University website, it is stated that:

We find no evidence that MBSR leads to higher rates of harm relative to waitlist control on any primary or secondary outcome. On many indices of harm across multiple outcomes, community MBSR was significantly preventative of harm.


this is the link of research:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 6738C0FECE
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13254
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by Ayu »

mahdiebrahimi wrote: Sat Jul 01, 2023 10:21 pm hy
i read a blog post in a persian site caled aramia.me
in this blog wrote:
In 2020, Matt Hirshberg, lead researcher, investigated whether mindfulness-based stress reduction (MBSR) might have negative health effects. In the results section of this article published on the Cambridge University website, it is stated that:

We find no evidence that MBSR leads to higher rates of harm relative to waitlist control on any primary or secondary outcome. On many indices of harm across multiple outcomes, community MBSR was significantly preventative of harm.


this is the link of research:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 6738C0FECE
Well, "meditation" is a very vast field of nearly countless methods and techniques.

Funnily just this minute, I searched the internet for "controversy of mindfulness meditation" and found e. g. this:
https://www.learnreligions.com/the-mind ... rsy-449769
In this article they claim:
Some Buddhist teachers are concerned that mindfulness can be misused. (...)
Some Buddhist meditation teachers have voiced concerns that mindfulness meditation isolated from its traditional guiding context of the Path could be more unpredictable and possibly dangerous. For example, uncoupled from the other parts of the Path that teach us to release greed and anger and develop loving kindness, compassion, and empathy, mindfulness could reinforce negative qualities instead of positive ones. (...)
But I wonder why they don't mention some names of these Buddhist teachers.

IMHO, meditation can be dangerous in any case of misuse. Vajrayana without empowerment, Highest Yoga Tantra without compassion, any practice without ethical basics is bound to lead into difficulties.
JoshMathew
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:31 am

Re: Can meditation be bad?

Post by JoshMathew »

Meditation when practiced properly and with guidance, is generally considered beneficial for mental well-being and overall health. However, it's important to approach meditation with a balanced perspective. While rare, in some cases, people with certain mental health conditions such as psychosis or severe depression may experience negative effects from meditation.

That being said, it's crucial to emphasize that meditation should be approached with mindfulness and proper instruction. It's advisable to seek guidance from trained professionals or experienced practitioners. They can provide personalized advice and tailor the practice to your individual needs, ensuring a safe and positive experience.

Metta Meditation, also known as loving-kindness meditation, is a practice that focuses on cultivating compassion and well-wishing towards oneself and others. By directing kind intentions and positive energy, this form of meditation aims to foster empathy, kindness, and interconnectedness. Incorporating metta meditation into your practice can deepen your overall experience and promote a sense of interconnectedness with the world around you.

Read Article here: https://needselfdevelopment.com/a-compr ... on-script/
Post Reply

Return to “Meditation”