Supernatural powers

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:39 pm Thoughts on Ram Bahadur Bomjon fire trick? Scientists were amazed that he can meditate for long periods of time, but have no evidence about the fire.
Also known as the “Buddha Boy” of Nepal.
There is a video on YouTube of him inside his hollow tree trunk, surrounded by flames.
But see, this is an example of the pointlessness of performing “supernatural powers” without wisdom:
He didn’t have any marshmallows to roast.
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by kirtu »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:39 pm Thoughts on Ram Bahadur Bomjon fire trick? Scientists were amazed that he can meditate for long periods of time, but have no evidence about the fire.
I would be very wary of Ram Bahadur Bomjon at this point. He or his followers are creating controversy over and over again. It's a show, or has become one. Stage acts are easy to manufacture if you know how.

Being able to meditate for long periods of time is also no big thing. We have to purify our minds. Teachings have examples of people who were able to meditate for long periods of time but after meditation the three poisons reasserted themselves.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Jokingfish
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Jokingfish »

What is Buddhist opinion on spirits, shamanism, ouija boards?
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:26 am What is Buddhist opinion on spirits, shamanism, ouija boards?
See above, e.g. -
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:27 am There is no point, and nearly all the texts point this out.
The powers are said to arise naturally as a side-effect of worthwhile spiritual development but to be basically meaningless in terms of the goal of spiritual development. They are, however, capable of being a great distraction to practitioner and to lay people who learn about them, so practitioners are advised not to talk about their powers, far less demonstrate them.

:namaste:
Kim
:namaste:
Kim
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:26 am What is Buddhist opinion on spirits, shamanism, ouija boards?
…and eating pizza, training dogs, playing Mario Brothers etc.

The buddhist view is that:
All of this is stuff people do in samsara.
And everything that everyone does in samsara is something that, ultimately, they do for the same reason, which is to be free of dukkha (“suffering”). All beings want happiness and to be free from unhappiness.

And since all of these activities are directed outwardly, and are focused on grasping at temporary, conditional objects, then whatever satisfaction is derived will also be conditional and temporary.

What each being possesses which is constant, is their own mind, their own awareness. So, instead of chasing outward phenomena, buddhists turn inward and work with their own thoughts. These outward objects can be helpful or they can be distractions. The objects themselves are neither “here nor there”. They are not necessarily good or bad. For example:

If you are hungry, it may be difficult to meditate, and the satisfaction that comes with a meal can help you to stay focused on your practice. But a person who simply turns to food whenever they are stressed will not be free of their suffering, but will only add to it. The food itself isn’t the problem. The issue is not seeing things for what they are, and not seeing the activity of the mind for what it is.

So, pretty much everything you are asking about, it may be okay in itself, but if it is not contributing to one’s Buddhist focus, it is a distraction. This doesn’t mean you can’t stop meditating and go watch TV. Simply, see things for what they are.
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Kai lord »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:26 am What is Buddhist opinion on spirits, shamanism, ouija boards?
Depends on what kind of spirits you are referring to and their intentions and activities towards others.

Shamanism of certain regions like central and northern Asia is successfully assimilated into Buddhism. Thats how historically Mongols and other nomadic tribes eventually became Buddhists and their patrons and that is also why certain Buddhist rituals look shamanic in nature
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
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Re: Supernatural powers

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What about deities, what are they, why are they important? (are they also same as supernaturality - just a distraction?)
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Kai lord »

Jokingfish wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:34 pm What about deities, what are they, why are they important? (are they also same as supernaturality - just a distraction?)
What deities? You have to be specific. Devas you mean? They are just a class of fortunate beings who live better, look better, eat better, etc than humans.

Buddhists in general, don't care much about devas other than those who are the Dharma protectors.

Technically you are free to view or imagine them as alien humanoids who live a longer life, with flawless looks, come from a highly advanced civilization, etc, in your free time and no Buddhist will complain about your idea.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by SkyFox »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 11:02 pm
Jokingfish wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:01 pm Are they real or just a metaphor?

I basically found no direct thoughts on this site about it.
I’ve rarely met a Buddhist practitioner who didn’t have the amazing ability find faults in others that they themselves were unaware of.
LOL!! That is also my greatest super power; how did you know? :rolling:

On a serious note, my country (Vietnam) is very superstitious when it comes to fortune telling. A fortune teller predicted the death of my grandma and 2 uncle down to the age of death. All of them, before the year, said that it was their last year. He, apparently, predicted his own death, too.

I got my fortune predicted too. If I am ever able to build the largest Buddhist temple in my country, then there's your proof because I'm flat broke right now :emb:
Jokingfish wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:39 pm Thoughts on Ram Bahadur Bomjon fire trick? Scientists were amazed that he can meditate for long periods of time, but have no evidence about the fire.
I've heard of him before, but I don't think any enlighten being would come back to this plane just to show off on camera and cause a scene.
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Aemilius
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Aemilius »

This has been said before, but here it is again: Supernatural powers are equally a quality of the perceiver/spectator.

At one time large skyscrapers were something so unbelievable that people, who were shown a picture of a skyscraper, did not see a high building, because such things did not exist in their mind.

Another example: When Dornier Do X, the largest, heaviest, and most powerful flying boat in the world, produced by the Dornier company of Germany in 1929, landed on water near the shore in Africa, it could not fly again. They tried everything, taking away all the passenger seats etc.., but the plane couldn't rise into the air. Finally the plane was taken to Europe on deck of a ship. And there it could fly again.

Lots of the things that are now normal everyday objects, would be miraculous things beyond comprehension, if you were able to show them to Europeans of the middle ages or before middle ages. Even if they would see them, they would only see something that conforms to their habitual and socially accepted view of the world.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by climb-up »

Jokingfish wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:01 pm Are they real or just a metaphor?
Yes, definitely
Jokingfish wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:26 am What is Buddhist opinion on spirits, shamanism, ouija boards?
Well, there are many Buddhisms, many spirits and many shamanisms. There are also many talking boards, but ouija is specific (my ouija board is glow in the dark! 😊).

There are enlightened Buddhist spirits and activities that might be considered to be “shamanic,” (that word is used to mean so many things…)

Outside of the above;
Working with spirits and doing shamanic rituals and holding seance is all worldly activities. If there are used in conjunction with and in service of the dharma, then it’s all good.
If they aren’t, or if they’re distractions or even mistaken as being spiritually enlightening activities, then that’s a problem.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Supernatural powers

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What do you do with that board, exactly what you get, see? What kind of supernatural powers are there, like flying?
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Jokingfish wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:34 pm What about deities, what are they, why are they important? (are they also same as supernaturality - just a distraction?)
Just as you are imagining yourself playing the character role of you, with your identity and so forth, but this is all a projection of unenlightened mind, the Buddhist deities are manifestations of enlightened mind. You could say, they are who you really are. They are actually what is real. The characters that you and I play out every day and experience as “me” are the illusions.
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Aemilius »

Jokingfish wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:44 am What do you do with that board, exactly what you get, see? What kind of supernatural powers are there, like flying?
In The Kevaddha sutta Bhagavan Shakyamuni speaks at length about miracles, and about the drawbacks of miracles. He says that the greatest miracle, the only true miracle, is that a person changes his mind, leaves the dark path of samsara and begins to follow the path of light, the path of Dharma, the Noble Eightfold path.


"I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Nalanda in Pavarika's mango grove. Then Kevatta the householder approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, this Nalanda is powerful, both prosperous and populous, filled with people who have faith in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One were to direct a monk to display a miracle of psychic power from his superior human state so that Nalanda would to an even greater extent have faith in the Blessed One."

When this was said, the Blessed One said to Kevatta the householder, "Kevatta, I don't teach the monks in this way: 'Come, monks, display a miracle of psychic power to the lay people clad in white.'"

A second time... A third time, Kevatta the householder said to the Blessed One: "I won't argue with the Blessed One, but I tell you: Lord, this Nalanda is powerful, both prosperous and populous, filled with people who have faith in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One were to direct a monk to display a miracle of psychic power from his superior human state so that Nalanda would to an even greater extent have faith in the Blessed One."

A third time, the Blessed One said to Kevatta the householder, "Kevatta, I don't teach the monks in this way: 'Come, monks, display a miracle of psychic power to the lay people clad in white.'

"Kevatta, there are these three miracles that I have declared, having directly known and realized them for myself. Which three? The miracle of psychic power, the miracle of telepathy, and the miracle of instruction.

"And what is the miracle of telepathy? There is the case where a monk reads the minds, the mental events, the thoughts, the ponderings of other beings, other individuals, [saying,] 'Such is your thinking, here is where your thinking is, thus is your mind.'

"Then someone who has faith and conviction in him sees him reading the minds... of other beings... He reports this to someone who has no faith and no conviction, telling him, 'Isn't it awesome. Isn't it astounding, how great the power, how great the prowess of this contemplative. Just now I saw him reading the minds... of other beings...'

"Then the person without faith, without conviction, would say to the person with faith and with conviction: 'Sir, there is a charm called the Manika charm by which the monk read the minds... of other beings...' What do you think, Kevatta — isn't that what the man without faith, without conviction, would say to the man with faith and with conviction?"

"Yes, lord, that's just what he would say."

"Seeing this drawback to the miracle of telepathy, Kevatta, I feel horrified, humiliated, and disgusted with the miracle of telepathy.

The Miracle of Instruction

"And what is the miracle of instruction? There is the case where a monk gives instruction in this way: 'Direct your thought in this way, don't direct it in that. Attend to things in this way, don't attend to them in that. Let go of this, enter and remain in that.' This, Kevatta, is called the miracle of instruction.

"Furthermore, there is the case where a Tathagata appears in the world, worthy and rightly self-awakened. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims the holy life both in its particulars and in its essence, entirely perfect, surpassingly pure.

"A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains conviction in the Tathagata and reflects: 'Household life is confining, a dusty path. The life gone forth is like the open air. It is not easy living at home to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'

etc..."


Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta: To Kevatta
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn ... .than.html


Miracles of Gautama Buddha

Supranormal powers the historic Buddha was said to have possessed and exercised include the six higher knowledges (abhiññā): psychic abilities (iddhi-vidhā), clairaudience (dibba-sota), telepathy (ceto-pariya), recollection of one's own past lives (pubbe-nivāsanussati), seeing the past lives and rebirths of others (dibba-cakkhu), and the extinction of mental intoxicants (āsavakkhaya). Miracles found in Mahayana sutras like Vimalakirti sutra, the White Lotus sutra, and the three Pureland sutras.., are often vast in scale and they play a more direct role in illustrating certain doctrines than miracles found in non-Mahayana Buddhist texts.

Here is a nice list of miracles found in Tripitaka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_ ... ama_Buddha
Last edited by Aemilius on Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by climb-up »

Jokingfish wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:44 am What do you do with that board, exactly what you get, see?
Are you asking how one uses a ouija board generally?

The most basic way is to have one or more people place fingertips on the planchette and say “are you there?”
This does not open you up to possession and things the horror movies will tell you, but it does open you up to both your unconscious mind and to any random spirit that might answer, so the danger of deception and/or mistaken information is high.
More technical ways depend on your training and knowledge base.

I use mine very infrequently for entertainment seances. It’s not particularly quick or easy way to communicate.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Jokingfish »

Thx aemilius for informative post.

Climb up, got any cool stories? :D
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Re: Supernatural powers

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Jokingfish wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:27 pm Climb up, got any cool stories? :D
Tbh I cut it out of my seances after a while (I should have used past tense above because I stopped performing a few years ago) because it didn’t quite flow, so not as many stories as I should. Plenty of experiences of people having strange feelings, having visions and insights to their questions, having questions answered accurately that they only thought of (which isn’t really explainable by the ideomotor movements of multiple people allegedly all working together) and the classic shock because everyone is quite sure that they are not moving the planchette (although, tbf, this COULD be explained by ideomotor movement, though not the coherent messages). I’ve definitely had people feel that the experience was palpably real enough that they wanted to stop.

A few years ago my son decided to draw his own ouija board on a cardboard box and we had a Halloween seance. We protected the area from spirits that would cause harm (possibly unnecessary since the whole house is already so protected) and ended up contacting what claimed to be the spirit of the land our house is on.
I didn’t do anything to double check or confirm this, but it was an interesting conversation and definitely wasn’t anything any of us had expected.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Jokingfish »

Visuddhimagga

According to scholars, the Visuddhimagga is one of the extremely rare texts within the enormous literatures of various forms of Jainism, Buddhism, and Hinduism to give explicit details about how spiritual masters were thought to actually manifest supernormal abilities.[13] Abilities such as flying through the air, walking through solid obstructions, diving into the ground, walking on water and so forth are performed by changing one element, such as earth, into another element, such as air.[14] The individual must master kasina meditation before this is possible.[15] Dipa Ma, who trained via the Visuddhimagga, was said to demonstrate these abilities.[16]

This is from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visuddhimagga

So... Is it true with them siddhis? :|

Perhaps someone already mentioned this, correct me if im wrong..
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I had a friend who pursued a career in crystal ball gazing. After a while, she gave it up.
She just couldn’t see any future in it.

:rolling:
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Re: Supernatural powers

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Jokingfish wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 3:07 pm Visuddhimagga

According to scholars, the Visuddhimagga is one of the extremely rare texts within the enormous literatures of various forms of Jainism, Buddhism, and Hinduism to give explicit details about how spiritual masters were thought to actually manifest supernormal abilities.[13] Abilities such as flying through the air, walking through solid obstructions, diving into the ground, walking on water and so forth are performed by changing one element, such as earth, into another element, such as air.[14] The individual must master kasina meditation before this is possible.[15] Dipa Ma, who trained via the Visuddhimagga, was said to demonstrate these abilities.[16]

This is from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visuddhimagga

So... Is it true with them siddhis? :|

Perhaps someone already mentioned this, correct me if im wrong..
OK - since you ask: You're wrong.
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:08 pm See above, e.g. -
Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:27 am There is no point, and nearly all the texts point this out.
The powers are said to arise naturally as a side-effect of worthwhile spiritual development but to be basically meaningless in terms of the goal of spiritual development. They are, however, capable of being a great distraction to practitioner and to lay people who learn about them, so practitioners are advised not to talk about their powers, far less demonstrate them.

:namaste:
Kim
:namaste:
Kim
You're wrong because you're kicking this can down the street, enjoying the noise it makes but annoying the neighbours, instead of doing anything that might actually be useful on your spiritual path.

:namaste:
Kim
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