How are you preparing for death?

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

reiun wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:55 am It has already been discussed on this forum that cells die and are replaced about every seven years, hence a form of rebirth. Or, also mentioned, moment-to-moment it can be said we experience a renewal or rebirth. So that is "gaining confidence based on personal experience." No problem rationally proving either of these, as far as I'm concerned.
You are missing the main point here, which is that Buddhists accept direct experience, and by and large modern science does not. So, I accept my direct experience of the mind as "proof" for my purposes. You, apparently exclusively following the model of materialist and materialist-leaning science cannot, and have to rely -only- on inference due to your philosophical preference. What you describe is not a "moment to moment" experience at all, it is actually an event described through inference, you do not experience having cells replaced, that conclusion is a result of inference, not a personal experience. AFAIK the seven years thing is a myth anyway, btw. but perhaps that's for another thread.

In case you doubt me, look into Dennet's "manifest" and "scientific" image, people who accept the materialist view do not think any direct experience of reality is possible, only a scientific image through science/inference, and a manifest image through subjective experience - which according to them can never be reality, and is fully an epi-phenomena of matter - our brains. It's an illusion that comes from matter, which is the only reality according to them.

A Buddhist on the other hand accepts that one can cut through, penetrate, comprehend this manifest image and directly experience reality, which is called Bodhi, and of course there are varying views in Buddhism on the nature of matter.

A person who cannot accept this possibility essentially does not believe in Bodhi by definition. I have a lot of respect for many of these thinkers too, I just have come to a different conclusion.

https://bestmentalmodels.com/2018/09/25 ... fic-image/
As for using modern science in this discussion, I accept your capitulation.
I don't even think you understand the terms of the debate yet, it's not some silly "science vs anti science" thing. Scientists and philosophers have high level debates on this stuff for years and years.

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/do ... ind-part-2
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by reiun »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:03 am
reiun wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:55 am It has already been discussed on this forum that cells die and are replaced about every seven years, hence a form of rebirth. Or, also mentioned, moment-to-moment it can be said we experience a renewal or rebirth. So that is "gaining confidence based on personal experience." No problem rationally proving either of these, as far as I'm concerned.
Actually you are missing the main point here, which is that Buddhists accept direct experience, and by and large modern science does not. So, I accept my direct experience of the mind as "proof" for my purposes.
As long as this is just for your purposes, no problem.
You, apparently exclusively following the model of materialist and materialist-leaning science cannot, and have to rely -only- on inference due to your philosophical preference.
I don't know what you are talking about.
What you describe is not a "moment to moment" experience at all, it is actually an event described through inference, no one experiences having all their cells replaced. AFAIK this is a myth anyway, btw. but perhaps that's for another thread.
Ok!
In case you doubt me, look into Dennet's "manifest" and "scientific" image, people who accept the materialist view do not think *any* direct experience of reality is possible, only a scientific image through science/inference, and a manifest image through subjective experience - which according to them can never be reality. a Buddhist on the other hand accepts that one can cut through this manifest image and directly experience reality, which is called Bodhi.

A person who cannot accept this possibility essentially does not believe in Bodhi by definition. I have a lot of respect for these thinkers too, I just have come to a different conclusion.
In fact, of course, I do believe direct experience of reality is possible. In terms of rebirth, since you admit it can't be proven rationally, I remain a skeptic.
reiun wrote: As for using modern science in this discussion, I accept your capitulation.
Hardly, I don't even think you understand the terms of the debate yet, it's not some silly "science vs anti science" thing. Scientists and philosophers have high level debates on this stuff for years and years.
.No, it is just that I don't accept the terms by which you dismiss science.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I don't know what you are talking about.
I can tell. Despite your investment in a strong opinion I can see how unfamiliar you are with the Hard Problem debate or how it relates here..(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_pr ... sciousness), and continue to assume opinions with which you do not agree amount to some sort of attack on science, which exists nowhere in the thread.
.No, it is just that I don't accept the terms by which you dismiss science.
Ironically, it appears I am much more familiar with the views of “science” here (materialists like Dennet, etc.) than you are. What science do you see being dismissed, anywhere in the thread?

I suspect then that your skepticism is more habit-based than the result of analysis, and don’t think you are in any position to claim to represent “science” here.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by reiun »

If I thought this discussion was about how the theory of rebirth affected the preparation for death, rather than just about the theory itself, I would offer a further comment.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Giovanni »

The Buddhist concept of Rebirth is not a theory. It is an axiom of most mainstream Buddhist schools. Of course not accepting it need not prevent us from taking an interest in Buddhadharma or even practising some of its disciplines. But I think simply putting it to one side and being agnostic about can initially be sensible. But eventually we may be brought face to face with teachings and teachers and have to come off the fence.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by seeker242 »

First and foremost, by never doing anything unethical.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

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Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:43 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:13 pm I would argue that the 'one-out - one in' conception of rebirth is much more mired in clinging to a concept of self. Noone here is denying the possibility of some form of rebirth - just that its existence is not provable.
Rebirth occurs because of the habit of I-making. When that habit is eradicated, then one has control over birth. It may not be "provable" to those commoners with ordinary, contaminated, undeveloped sense organs, but it is verifiable by those who make the effort to cultivate samadhi and the deva eye, etc. That community has found rebirth empirically validated amongst themselves.

The point is, you can’t prove that it is verifiable.
You can’t prove that anyone has some kind of “uncontaminated” sense perception.
That too is a matter of faith.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am The Buddhist concept of Rebirth is not a theory. It is an axiom of most mainstream Buddhist schools. Of course not accepting it need not prevent us from taking an interest in Buddhadharma or even practising some of its disciplines. But I think simply putting it to one side and being agnostic about can initially be sensible. But eventually we may be brought face to face with teachings and teachers and have to come off the fence.
“Theory” means a proposed explanation. Theories can be accepted as true. They can also be accepted as untrue.
For example, Buddhist theory regards the concept of an actual ‘self’ that exists continuously from moment to moment or from lifetime to lifetime, which we could call “Hindu theory” as untrue.

Whether this theory is or is not an axiom of anything is beside the point.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

reiun wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:05 am If I thought this discussion was about how the theory of rebirth affected the preparation for death, rather than just about the theory itself, I would offer a further comment.
It can be about that. I don’t know that this was the original purpose.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:03 am
reiun wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:55 am It has already been discussed on this forum that cells die and are replaced about every seven years, hence a form of rebirth. Or, also mentioned, moment-to-moment it can be said we experience a renewal or rebirth. So that is "gaining confidence based on personal experience." No problem rationally proving either of these, as far as I'm concerned.
You are missing the main point here, which is that Buddhists accept direct experience, and by and large modern science does not. So, I accept my direct experience of the mind as "proof" for my purposes. You, apparently exclusively following the model of materialist and materialist-leaning science cannot, and have to rely -only- on inference due to your philosophical preference. What you describe is not a "moment to moment" experience at all, it is actually an event described through inference, you do not experience having cells replaced, that conclusion is a result of inference, not a personal experience. AFAIK the seven years thing is a myth anyway, btw. but perhaps that's for another thread.
It’s the direct experience of information. All direct experience is the direct experience of information. We know about cells because we have magical tools called microscopes, and we have direct experience of the information they provide.

Of course, just because something can’t be independently verified doesn’t mean it isn’t valid. I may know who is a criminal, but I can’t prove it. I may have dreamed about tigers, but there is no way I can prove it.
This holds true for rebirth as well.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Well, if one wants to prove there is rebirth, and who is also concerned with how to prepare for death, then set up research project at a reputable university, just like medical research. Collect data on individuals and establish certain things that they must verify.
After they die, wait for them to take rebirth and return to claim their case file.
If they do this, that’s proof.
If they don’t do this, then it doesn’t even matter if there is rebirth or not.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:43 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:13 pm I would argue that the 'one-out - one in' conception of rebirth is much more mired in clinging to a concept of self. Noone here is denying the possibility of some form of rebirth - just that its existence is not provable.
Rebirth occurs because of the habit of I-making. When that habit is eradicated, then one has control over birth. It may not be "provable" to those commoners with ordinary, contaminated, undeveloped sense organs, but it is verifiable by those who make the effort to cultivate samadhi and the deva eye, etc. That community has found rebirth empirically validated amongst themselves.

The point is, you can’t prove that it is verifiable.
You cannot prove it to ordinary people who lack the higher cognitions.
You can’t prove that anyone has some kind of “uncontaminated” sense perception.
You cannot prove it to ordinary people who lack the higher cognitions.
That too is a matter of faith.
Only to ordinary people who lack the higher cognitions. But even ordinary people who possess the higher cognitions can verify these things.

For example, if someone does not have a powerful microscope, they cannot verify claims of this or that microbe. Someone who has such an instrument is able to. If one wants to develop the higher cognitions, the method to do so is described by the Buddha in many places.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Giovanni »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:34 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am The Buddhist concept of Rebirth is not a theory. It is an axiom of most mainstream Buddhist schools. Of course not accepting it need not prevent us from taking an interest in Buddhadharma or even practising some of its disciplines. But I think simply putting it to one side and being agnostic about can initially be sensible. But eventually we may be brought face to face with teachings and teachers and have to come off the fence.
“Theory” means a proposed explanation. Theories can be accepted as true. They can also be accepted as untrue.
For example, Buddhist theory regards the concept of an actual ‘self’ that exists continuously from moment to moment or from lifetime to lifetime, which we could call “Hindu theory” as untrue.

Whether this theory is or is not an axiom of anything is beside the point.
It’s absolutely to the point. The axiom is both the initial impetus for the arising of Sraddha and serves as a holding operation until prajna arises.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:52 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:03 am
reiun wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:55 am It has already been discussed on this forum that cells die and are replaced about every seven years, hence a form of rebirth. Or, also mentioned, moment-to-moment it can be said we experience a renewal or rebirth. So that is "gaining confidence based on personal experience." No problem rationally proving either of these, as far as I'm concerned.
You are missing the main point here, which is that Buddhists accept direct experience, and by and large modern science does not. So, I accept my direct experience of the mind as "proof" for my purposes. You, apparently exclusively following the model of materialist and materialist-leaning science cannot, and have to rely -only- on inference due to your philosophical preference. What you describe is not a "moment to moment" experience at all, it is actually an event described through inference, you do not experience having cells replaced, that conclusion is a result of inference, not a personal experience. AFAIK the seven years thing is a myth anyway, btw. but perhaps that's for another thread.
It’s the direct experience of information. All direct experience is the direct experience of information. We know about cells because we have magical tools called microscopes, and we have direct experience of the information they provide.

Of course, just because something can’t be independently verified doesn’t mean it isn’t valid. I may know who is a criminal, but I can’t prove it. I may have dreamed about tigers, but there is no way I can prove it.
This holds true for rebirth as well.
Other than sense data, there is no such animal as ‘direct experience of information as it’s being used here. Information as we are talking about here (how cells are replaced, etc.), is dealt with through inference, which happens in the sixth consciousness…in Buddhist terms (and general philosophical terms if we shift a bit) the example is indirect by definition.

It would be direct if you could actually experience your body replacing cells, the cells themselves, etc.

While some people might claim to have this ability, in context what was described is fully inferential, and is only direct in terms of being a direct experience of the mental consciousness… which is almost a contradiction in terms, though I guess you could argue the perception of its emptiness in meditation is direct.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

"How are you preparing for death?"

I think of Amida Buddha, aspire for birth in his pure land, and recite nembutsu as often as I can.
In Jodo Shu, no special distinction is made between practice while alive and at death.
Honen wrote that when we meet our end suddenly, the nembutsu of daily life becomes the nembutsu at death.
And if our lives are prolonged another day, the nembutsu at death becomes the nembutsu of daily life.
As far as faith in such things goes, something like a close relationship is developed with Amida Buddha (and the Pure Land teachers) over time, such that I gain confidence and assistance while still alive.

Hopefully Malcolm or someone also knowledgeable has the exact quote, but the Buddha said that if you take refuge in the Three Jewels, you do not go to states of woe after breakup of the body.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Matt J »

I think that the same practices that help one live a better life prepare one for death as well. Coming to terms with emptiness and the three marks (no self, impermanence, and dukkha) definitely helps with both. But of course death is much larger than any life stress and the loss is maximal: you lose your body, much of the mind, family, friends, etc.

Another preparation is to practice as much before death, if you see death as a sort of final exam. From a Buddhist POV, it is said to be a golden opportunity to achieve Buddhahood.

Then there are specific practices related to bardos and sleeping one can do as well.

It is strange to see how death is sending us its little messages of its arrival--- making the body older, the mind a bit slower, taking older friends and relatives. My hope is that as death nears, I tend to shift my activities from mundane to more spiritual activities, but who knows. Western epicureanism is very strong.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

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明安 Myoan wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:54 pm "How are you preparing for death?"

I think of Amida Buddha, aspire for birth in his pure land, and recite nembutsu as often as I can.
In Jodo Shu, no special distinction is made between practice while alive and at death.
Honen wrote that when we meet our end suddenly, the nembutsu of daily life becomes the nembutsu at death.
And if our lives are prolonged another day, the nembutsu at death becomes the nembutsu of daily life.
As far as faith in such things goes, something like a close relationship is developed with Amida Buddha (and the Pure Land teachers) over time, such that I gain confidence and assistance while still alive.

Hopefully Malcolm or someone also knowledgeable has the exact quote, but the Buddha said that if you take refuge in the Three Jewels, you do not go to states of woe after breakup of the body.
Iirc you can find a quote like that in the Dhammapada, there are lots of good ones on death:
Knowing this body
is like foam,
realizing its nature
— a mirage —
cutting out
the blossoms of Mara,
you go where the King of Death
can't see.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Malcolm »

Matt J wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:13 pmWestern epicureanism is very strong.
I wasn't Buddhist, I would be an Epicurean. Best greek philosopher ever.
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:39 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:34 pm
Giovanni wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am The Buddhist concept of Rebirth is not a theory. It is an axiom of most mainstream Buddhist schools. Of course not accepting it need not prevent us from taking an interest in Buddhadharma or even practising some of its disciplines. But I think simply putting it to one side and being agnostic about can initially be sensible. But eventually we may be brought face to face with teachings and teachers and have to come off the fence.
“Theory” means a proposed explanation. Theories can be accepted as true. They can also be accepted as untrue.
For example, Buddhist theory regards the concept of an actual ‘self’ that exists continuously from moment to moment or from lifetime to lifetime, which we could call “Hindu theory” as untrue.

Whether this theory is or is not an axiom of anything is beside the point.
It’s absolutely to the point. The axiom is both the initial impetus for the arising of Sraddha and serves as a holding operation until prajna arises.
It is a basic tenet of Buddhist theory.
It is what Buddhism proposes to be true. Therefore it is Buddhist theory.
What do you think ‘theory’ means?
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Re: How are you preparing for death?

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:01 pm
It is a basic tenet of Buddhist theory.
It is what Buddhism proposes to be true. Therefore it is Buddhist theory.
What do you think ‘theory’ means?
as above, an axiom is held to be a self-evident truth, not a theory. BTW, you seem to putting a lot of energy into sowing doubt about rebirth.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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