Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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tingdzin
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by tingdzin »

Excuse me, I see Mr. O'Hara has already said something similar.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

tingdzin wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:49 am Excuse me, I see Mr. O'Hara has already said something similar.
That's okay. :smile:
It's good for me and others to know my opinion has some support.

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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by kirtu »

tingdzin wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:20 am I haven't read all the above posts in detail, so pardon me if I'm repeating. Jan Nattier has a whole book on the motif of declining times in Buddhism, which is not at all related to the Kali Yuga scheme. Ironically, the Brahmins came up with the Kali Yuga stuff during the era of the Kushans and Sakas (or a bit afterward) because they took it as an indicator of the world's decline that Buddhism was so popular under the Kushans (who were not Brahmanists). Bronkhorst and Doniger are just two of the scholars who have commented on this. Also ironically, some later Buddhists took up the Brahmanical idea. The widespread idea among Western Buddhists that the Kali Yuga is a Buddhist idea is just misinformed.
Kali Yuga is a Buddhist idea in the sense that it is actively being used by TB teachers, khenpos, lamas in teaching.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

kirtu wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:21 am
tingdzin wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:20 am I haven't read all the above posts in detail, so pardon me if I'm repeating. Jan Nattier has a whole book on the motif of declining times in Buddhism, which is not at all related to the Kali Yuga scheme. Ironically, the Brahmins came up with the Kali Yuga stuff during the era of the Kushans and Sakas (or a bit afterward) because they took it as an indicator of the world's decline that Buddhism was so popular under the Kushans (who were not Brahmanists). Bronkhorst and Doniger are just two of the scholars who have commented on this. Also ironically, some later Buddhists took up the Brahmanical idea. The widespread idea among Western Buddhists that the Kali Yuga is a Buddhist idea is just misinformed.
Kali Yuga is a Buddhist idea in the sense that it is actively being used by TB teachers, khenpos, lamas in teaching.
Yes, and this has been said before, too. And most of us have seen it referenced very generally in the kinds of soft, New-Age, dicussion that blur together Hindu and Buddhist ideas but don't really count as "Buddhist teachings".
What we haven't seen is any evidence that (1) it was originally a Buddhist idea or (2) it is a real part of any extant Buddhist tradition other than Tibetan Buddhism.
Until we get that, I think we're just going around in circles. And I really don't think we will get it.

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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:31 am
kirtu wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:21 am
tingdzin wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:20 am I haven't read all the above posts in detail, so pardon me if I'm repeating. Jan Nattier has a whole book on the motif of declining times in Buddhism, which is not at all related to the Kali Yuga scheme. Ironically, the Brahmins came up with the Kali Yuga stuff during the era of the Kushans and Sakas (or a bit afterward) because they took it as an indicator of the world's decline that Buddhism was so popular under the Kushans (who were not Brahmanists). Bronkhorst and Doniger are just two of the scholars who have commented on this. Also ironically, some later Buddhists took up the Brahmanical idea. The widespread idea among Western Buddhists that the Kali Yuga is a Buddhist idea is just misinformed.
Kali Yuga is a Buddhist idea in the sense that it is actively being used by TB teachers, khenpos, lamas in teaching.
Yes, and this has been said before, too. And most of us have seen it referenced very generally in the kinds of soft, New-Age, dicussion that blur together Hindu and Buddhist ideas but don't really count as "Buddhist teachings".
What we haven't seen is any evidence that (1) it was originally a Buddhist idea or (2) it is a real part of any extant Buddhist tradition other than Tibetan Buddhism.
Until we get that, I think we're just going around in circles. And I really don't think we will get it.

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Kim
Definitely not new age, since Kirt is talking Khenpos and lamas, but usually quite generic and could easily be a broad synonym for mappo, etc. rather than a model resembling the Hindu notion.

Iirc from Sutta it’s Kalpas rather than Yugas, but it is similar with diminishing lifespan, increasing strife, lack of virtue etc. That is not at all unique to Tibetan Buddhism.

https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki/Kalpa
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

I don't think we disagree but I should have been clearer, e.g. by saying, "most of us have seen Kali Yuga referenced very generally in the kinds of soft, New-Age, dicussion that blur together Hindu and Buddhist ideas."

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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Giovanni »

Anyone interested in a definitely non- New Age practice from a highly traditional Vajrayana source might want to Google
“ The Rishis Maledictory Invocation” against the darkness of the Kaliyuga, by Chatral Rinpoche, who was convinced both of the literal truth of the Kaliyuga and that we are now living it.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Giovanni wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:06 pm Anyone interested in a definitely non- New Age practice from a highly traditional Vajrayana source might want to Google
“ The Rishis Maledictory Invocation” against the darkness of the Kaliyuga, by Chatral Rinpoche, who was convinced both of the literal truth of the Kaliyuga and that we are now living it.
They might, and they might thank you for the reference. But I don't think anyone now posting in this thread denies that it is legitimately a current TB teaching, except perhaps tingdzin.

Did I say something about going around in circles?

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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Norwegian »

I have pointed out that kali yuga and the other three yugas exist in major sutras as well as tantras, with these exact names, i.e., "kali yuga" and so on. If actual Buddhas teaches something, is it not a Buddhist teaching? Is there a particular term we use to describe the teachings of Buddhas?

Should we reject it simply because it as a concept exists in Hinduism as well? And not look at its context and perhaps see that it is taught somewhat differently in Buddhism? I am not trying to make the case that the four yugas are the most important teachings in Buddhism. I am simply pointing out that they are found in many primary sources, and that should be enough, in order to consider them as Buddhist teachings, when it's Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that teaches them, just like Buddhas and Bodhisattvas teaches karma, rebirth, dependent origination, the four noble truths, the perfections, samadhi, siddhis, bodhicitta, emptiness, dharanis, mantras, and everything else.

Moreover, this thread is in the Mahayana forum, not the Academic forum. So one would imagine that actual Mahayana sutras carry some kind of weight and importance here.
Kim O'Hara wrote:What we haven't seen is any evidence that (1) it was originally a Buddhist idea or (2) it is a real part of any extant Buddhist tradition other than Tibetan Buddhism.
1. Something being "originally Buddhist" is not the criteria for it being a Buddhist teaching. Karma, as an example, is also taught in Hinduism. Would OP have gotten the same response from some people in this thread, had OP asked "Is Karma a Buddhist teaching?" Doubtful.

2. I am not sure why you want to reject something only because it's part of Tibetan Buddhism. First, the yugas did not originate in Tibetan Buddhism, they originated in sutras and tantras, with a Sanskrit origin. This means they were part of the Indian sphere long before they got to Tibet.

If something is or is not taught today in a school, that does not mean much here, in the context discussed. The actual crucial thing to consider, is whether it's part of the primary sources or not.

Does any sutra or tantra teach the importance of accepting Jesus Christ as ones savior? No. Not a single one of them do. Thus we can easily conclude that this is not a Buddhist teaching. Right? This is easy to understand.

So, we look at these texts and see what they actually teach, by reading them, instead of guessing. What we read can be separated into two categories: Provisional teachings, and definitive teachings. What are those teachings? As the Akshayamati says:

"What are the sūtras of definitive meaning and the sūtras of implicit meaning? The sūtras that are taught in order to help one enter the way are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to help one reach the fruit of the way are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to demonstrate the relative truth are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to demonstrate the ultimate truth are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to help one engage in actions and duties are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught for the sake of the cessation of actions and afflictions are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to explain affliction are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to explain purification are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught in order to produce disgust for existence are called implicit, while the sūtras that are taught in order to help one enter the nonduality of nirvāṇa and existence are called definitive. The sūtras that are taught with various words and syllables are called implicit, while the sūtras that teach that which is deep, hard to see, and hard to understand are called definitive. The sūtras with many words and syllables that are taught in order to please the thoughts of living beings are called implicit, [F.150.b] while the sūtras with few words and syllables that are taught in order to produce mental introspection in living beings are called definitive. The sūtras that, with various words, proclaim a self, a being, a life principle, a life-sustaining principle, a spirit, a personality, a human being, a man, a subject that acts, and a subject that feels and those that teach that there is a ruler where there is no ruler are called implicit. The sūtras that teach emptiness, the absence of distinguishing marks, the absence of anything to long for, the unconditioned, the unborn, the unoriginated, the nonexistent, the absence of self, the absence of being, the absence of soul, the absence of person, the absence of spirit, the absence of ruler, and the gates of liberation are called definitive. This is called the reliance on the sūtras of definitive meaning, not on the sūtras of implicit meaning."

So it's easy to understand that as far as topics are concerned, the topic of kali yuga is a provisional / implicit topic. But even so, it is still a Buddhist teaching, as it exists in the core texts of common and uncommon Mahayana. You can find this teaching in the Karandavyuha Sutra, the Lankavatara Sutra, the Karunapundarika Sutra, the Sukhavativyuha-sutras, the Abhidharmakoshabhasya, the Yogacharabhumi, and so on, including various tantras, and many other commentarial works. Does this not count somehow? If it does not count, does it mean that what is found in these texts are not Buddhist teachings? Or do we consider that they're only Buddhist teachings if they are taught today and that being taught in the past, even eons ago - in a traditional context - does not count? Or how is it?
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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I totally don’t remember it in the Lankavatara, what section is it in?
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:43 pm I totally don’t remember it in the Lankavatara, what section is it in?
One quote I gave in the thread earlier, from the Lankavatara Sutra, verse 10.794, the Buddha Viraja states:

"The world-ages amount to four, i.e., the kṛtayuga, the tretāyuga, the dvāparayuga and the kaliyuga. Myself and others arose in the kṛtayuga, whereas the Lion of the Śākyas will arise in the kaliyuga." (v. 10.794, in Sanskrit: kṛtayugaś ca tretā ca dvāparaṃ kalinas tathā, ahaṃ cānye kṛtayuge śākyasiṃhaḥ kalau yuge)

Then there's other mentions of it in chapter 10 as well, such as an apocalyptic prophecy of how things will unfold, in other words your standard Mahayana stuff regarding that.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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:twothumbsup: thanks I need to revisit it.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Norwegian wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:50 pm I have pointed out that kali yuga and the other three yugas exist in major sutras as well as tantras, with these exact names, i.e., "kali yuga" and so on. If actual Buddhas teaches something, is it not a Buddhist teaching? Is there a particular term we use to describe the teachings of Buddhas?

Should we reject it simply because it as a concept exists in Hinduism as well? And not look at its context and perhaps see that it is taught somewhat differently in Buddhism? I am not trying to make the case that the four yugas are the most important teachings in Buddhism. I am simply pointing out that they are found in many primary sources, and that should be enough, in order to consider them as Buddhist teachings, when it's Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that teaches them, just like Buddhas and Bodhisattvas teaches karma, rebirth, dependent origination, the four noble truths, the perfections, samadhi, siddhis, bodhicitta, emptiness, dharanis, mantras, and everything else.

Moreover, this thread is in the Mahayana forum, not the Academic forum. So one would imagine that actual Mahayana sutras carry some kind of weight and importance here. ...
Once again, you are misreading my position and getting over-excited as a result.
As simply as possible, my position, up to this point has been that:
(1) Kali yuga was originally Brahman/Vedic and is now more prominent in Hinduism
(2) It is now a living teaching in TB but only in TB,
(3) Calling it simply a Buddhist teaching is ambiguous in that it is taught within in one tradition but it is not a pan-Buddhist teaching.
So it's easy to understand that as far as topics are concerned, the topic of kali yuga is a provisional / implicit topic. But even so, it is still a Buddhist teaching, as it exists in the core texts of common and uncommon Mahayana. You can find this teaching in the Karandavyuha Sutra, the Lankavatara Sutra, the Karunapundarika Sutra, the Sukhavativyuha-sutras, the Abhidharmakoshabhasya, the Yogacharabhumi, and so on, including various tantras, and many other commentarial works. Does this not count somehow? If it does not count, does it mean that what is found in these texts are not Buddhist teachings? Or do we consider that they're only Buddhist teachings if they are taught today and that being taught in the past, even eons ago - in a traditional context - does not count? Or how is it?
Okay, you have now extended its reach to the broader Mahayana, and I accept that.

That was new to me and it has taken two pages of discussion to locate so I guess it was new to others here. (I could also argue that anything buried so deep in a library so big is not actually a teaching any more, but I won't. :tongue: )

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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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Lankavatara is not so popular in Tibetan traditions and in fact is generally considered more important in East Asian schools.

So, we can now safely dispense with the idea that this is Tibetan Buddhism - specific at all.

I think these examples pretty well establish it as a somewhat mainstream idea, at least theoretically…but like I mentioned before, the trouble is that I am still not sure what Kali Yuga really means, is it just a vaguely Buddhist version of the Hindu concept combined the idea of the disappearance of the doctrine?

Are there some scriptural references with more detailed description or f what it means? I mean I am familiar with the way it’s often used in Tibetan teachings and know it reflect -some- of the same basic notions (rulers not acting like rulers etc etc).
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:25 am Lankavatara is not so popular in Tibetan traditions and in fact is generally considered more important in East Asian schools.
Yes.
So, we can now safely dispense with the idea that this is Tibetan Buddhism - specific at all.
I think these examples pretty well establish it as a somewhat mainstream idea, at least theoretically…
Yes, except to the the extent that that a theoretical teaching isn't mainstream.
but like I mentioned before, the trouble is that I am still not sure what Kali Yuga really means, is it just a vaguely Buddhist version of the Hindu concept combined the idea of the disappearance of the doctrine?

Are there some scriptural references with more detailed description or f what it means? I mean I am familiar with the way it’s often used in Tibetan teachings and know it reflect -some- of the same basic notions (rulers not acting like rulers etc etc).
See https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 84#p639784

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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:02 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:25 am Lankavatara is not so popular in Tibetan traditions and in fact is generally considered more important in East Asian schools.
Yes.
So, we can now safely dispense with the idea that this is Tibetan Buddhism - specific at all.
I think these examples pretty well establish it as a somewhat mainstream idea, at least theoretically…
Yes, except to the the extent that that a theoretical teaching isn't mainstream.
My point is that the Lanka is a very popular scripture, enough to put to rest the idea that this is a fringe notion.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by tingdzin »

My point was that the original idea was a Brahmanical reaction to the popularity of Buddhism among the Greeks, Sakas, Kushans, and other "barbarians". The fact that it was taken up by some Buddhists does not change that. After all, some Buddhists in Tibet seem to have also accepted the notion of the caste system. Jan Nattier's book on the subject, if read, will still a lot of this discussion.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

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Yuga in Buddhism glossary
Source: Dharma-samgraha

Yuga (युग) or Caturyuga refers to the “four ages” as defined in the Dharma-saṃgraha (section 88):

kṛta-yuga (the accomplished age),
tretā-yuga (the threefold-life age),
dvāpara-yuga (the twofold age),
kali-yuga (the dark age).

The Dharma-samgraha (Dharmasangraha) is an extensive glossary of Buddhist technical terms in Sanskrit (e.g., yuga). The work is attributed to Nagarjuna who lived around the 2nd century A.D.



Pali-English dictionary
— Yuga in Pali glossary
Source: BuddhaSasana: Concise Pali-English Dictionary

yuga : (nt.) a yoke; a pair; a couple; an age or generation. There are also 5 ages (or stages) in the (life of the) sāsana (or dispensation of the buddhist doctrine) (see Brethren, p. 339): vimutti, samādhi, sīla, suta, dāna.


from https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/yuga
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by tingdzin »

I didn't know that Nagarjuna had taken it up. Interesting, provided the attribution can be trusted. The Pali definitions seem closer to those Nattier talks about.
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Re: Is Kali Yuga a Buddhist teaching?

Post by Aemilius »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:19 am I didn't know that Nagarjuna had taken it up. Interesting, provided the attribution can be trusted. The Pali definitions seem closer to those Nattier talks about.
Thanks! According to Etienne Lamotte (in History of Indian Buddhism) there are roughly ten different versions of this teaching in the sutras concerning the stages (yuga) through which the disappearance of the Good Law takes place.

In Jainism yuga is a somewhat shorter unit of time, than you find in the buddhist prophecies:
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svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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