Latest request from ChNNs family

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Johnny Dangerous
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Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

If it’s not desired to bring it up publicly, can someone pm me and explain what this latest request to the community was about? It was vague and confusing to me, and I assume I am missing some piece of info.
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by heart »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:56 am If it’s not desired to bring it up publicly, can someone pm me and explain what this latest request to the community was about? It was vague and confusing to me, and I assume I am missing some piece of info.
Would you please share what you know?

/magnus
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~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by PeterC »

Would also appreciate any explanation available. Though I can probably guess what it is.
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:56 am If it’s not desired to bring it up publicly, can someone pm me and explain what this latest request to the community was about? It was vague and confusing to me, and I assume I am missing some piece of info.
Yes, it is vague and confusing, just like pretty much every official or semi-official important statement the DC in its many guises has issued since Rinpoche's passing. There it flies for those who have not read it:
Care amiche e cari amici della Comunità Dzogchen,

spesso la voglia di riportare alla memoria i momenti felici che si sono vissuti e condivisi con i nostri cari, così come quelli vissuti in tutti questi anni di cammino in comune insieme al nostro amato Chögyal Namkhai Norbu è tanto forte da farci dimenticare che le cose cambiano e la vita ci presenta spesso aspetti che in passato non erano affatto considerati.

Abbiamo vissuto momenti importanti a cui nessuno di noi si è sottratto, vissuti in armonia e collaborazione ciascuno con il proprio contributo e senza particolarismi.

La dimensione attuale dello sviluppo dei social media e la conseguente proliferazione della condivisione delle immagini attraverso un utilizzo indiscriminato e senza alcun rispetto per immagini di vita private della nostra famiglia affollano la platea dei social travisandone il senso e offendendo la memoria dei protagonisti.

Penserete, forse, che questo è il destino di persone che si sono trovate al centro dell’attenzione e, loro malgrado, sono diventati personaggi pubblici; ciò non toglie che le nostre vite e le nostre coscienze vengano turbate da questo continuo proporre immagini al di fuori e al di là del contesto da cui e in cui sono nate.

Il mondo della rete, come quello reale, è pieno di trappole e mistificazioni verso cui dovremmo cercare di esercitare la nostra consapevolezza. Vorremmo per tanto invitarvi al rispetto di queste immagini nate dal rapporto confidenziale e di fiducia con migliaia di praticanti ai quali con sincera gioia abbiamo aperto la nostra casa e il nostro cuore.

Siamo colpiti da questa continua esposizione d’immagini senza che a nessuno di noi venga richiesto il permesso, sia pure per educazione; e poiché a ciascuno è dato il diritto di proteggere la propria sfera privata, chiediamo di evitare che si continuino a utilizzare, pubblicamente, immagini che ritraggono membri della famiglia Namkhai.

Fiduciosi della vostra comprensione vi auguriamo tutto il bene possibile.

Grazie

La famiglia Namkhai


Dear friends of the Dzogchen Community,

Often the desire to recall the happy moments that have been lived and shared with our loved ones, as well as those shared in all of these years, walking together with our beloved Chögyal Namkhai Norbu is so strong that we forget that things change and life often presents us with aspects that in the past were not considered at all.

We have experienced important moments that none of us have escaped, lived in harmony and collaboration, each with his or her own contribution and without particularities.

The current dimension of the development of social media and the consequent proliferation of sharing images through indiscriminate use and without any respect for images of our family's private life crowd the social media audience, distorting their meaning and offending the memory of the protagonists.

You may think, perhaps, that this is the fate of people who have found themselves at the center of attention and, despite themselves, have become public figures; this does not prevent our lives and our consciences from being disturbed by this constant proposition of images outside and beyond the context from which and in which they were born.

The world of the network, like the real one, is full of traps and mystifications towards which we should try to exercise our awareness. We would therefore like to invite you to respect these images that arose from the confidential and trusting relationship with thousands of practitioners to whom we have opened our home and our heart with sincere joy.

We are struck by this continuous display of images without any of us being asked for permission, albeit for education; and since everyone is given the right to protect their privacy, we ask to avoid continuing the public use of images depicting members of the Namkhai family.

Confident of your understanding, we wish you all the best.

Thank you.

The Namkhai family
Does that mean one cannot share photos and video footage of Rinpoche? Probably. Cui bono? I honestly do not know.

PS. Yes, I have shared it. If it is not to be shared in public, it should have never been sent out to the DC members.
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

From what I heard through the grape wine the issue is sharing photos of the family members online. Which I kinda get and it makes sense. Unfortunately it is written in a rather strange manner. Especially the intro. But the gist seems to be: "Just don't take our pictures without us knowing and don't share it online, man!"
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

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treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:46 am Does that mean one cannot share photos and video footage of Rinpoche? Probably. Cui bono? I honestly do not know.
PS. Yes, I have shared it. If it is not to be shared in public, it should have never been sent out to the DC members.
:smile: I don't know what to say. I think Yeshi know you can't control the internet or peoples personal pictures and videos.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:58 am From what I heard through the grape wine the issue is sharing photos of the family members online. Which I kinda get and it makes sense. Unfortunately it is written in a rather strange manner. Especially the intro. But the gist seems to be: "Just don't take our pictures without us knowing and don't share it online, man!"
Then please, put it this way. Exactly this way. Do not let us wonder why you speak of "the happy moments that have been lived and shared with our loved ones, as well as those shared in all of these years, walking together with our beloved Chögyal Namkhai Norbu."

PS.

Rinpoche had, obviously, his family. He also has his students, whom he himself encouraged, in a traditional fashion, to regard each other (and him) as family. Some people have tried to do it, but Rinpoche's family in the first sense of the word wants now to define the limits here, effectively establishing in what sense, to what extent, etc. Rinpoche's students are his/their family in the second sense. Understandable, of course. But if those who are now told not to share the photos/videos of their beloved master the way they share the photos/videos of their loved ones feel bewildered and possibly hurt, it should not come as any surprise either.

I still cannot understand who is caused pain when people share lovely, funny or charming photos of a person they all deeply cared for. Myself, I will eagerly comply, of course, with the wish of the family. In all my life I shared the sum total of some three photos of Rinpoche's online and I am perfectly OK with stopping at this point. Still, cui bono?
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:14 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:58 am From what I heard through the grape wine the issue is sharing photos of the family members online. Which I kinda get and it makes sense. Unfortunately it is written in a rather strange manner. Especially the intro. But the gist seems to be: "Just don't take our pictures without us knowing and don't share it online, man!"
Then please, put it this way. Exactly this way. Do not let us wonder why you speak of "the happy moments that have been lived and shared with our loved ones, as well as those shared in all of these years, walking together with our beloved Chögyal Namkhai Norbu."

PS.

Rinpoche had, obviously, his family. He also has his students, whom he himself encouraged, in a traditional fashion, to regard each other (and him) as family. Some people have tried to do it, but Rinpoche's family in the first sense of the word wants now to define the limits here, effectively establishing in what sense, to what extent, etc. Rinpoche's students are his/their family in the second sense. Understandable, of course. But if those who are now told not to share the photos/videos of their beloved master the way they share the photos/videos of their loved ones feel bewildered and possibly hurt, it should not come as any surprise either.

I still cannot understand who is caused pain when people share lovely, funny or charming photos of a person they all deeply cared for. Myself, I will eagerly comply, of course, with the wish of the family. In all my life I shared the sum total of some three photos of Rinpoche's online and I am perfectly OK with stopping at this point. Still, cui bono?
It assumes they have all rights to any image of themselves and the boss, which of course is incorrect. Image rights belong to the photographer, not the subject, unless there is an explicit contract.
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:05 amIt assumes they have all rights to any image of themselves and the boss, which of course is incorrect. Image rights belong to the photographer, not the subject, unless there is an explicit contract.
Even less sense, then. :shrug:
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by PeterC »

The subject of an image in a context where there is no prior contract and no expectation of privacy does not, in Italy (the source of the term “paparazzo”) or most other places, have any rights over use of the image. So it’s a rather pointless request. It feels like an attempt to assert ownership rights.

We were also presented with this communication as coming from ChNNr’s family without further context. Is that the whole family?
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

I really don't think this is about Namkhai Norbu RInpoche's photos. It seems to be more about the rest of the family requesting more privacy.
You may think, perhaps, that this is the fate of people who have found themselves at the center of attention and, despite themselves, have become public figures; this does not prevent our lives and our consciences from being disturbed by this constant proposition of images outside and beyond the context from which and in which they were born.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:24 pm The subject of an image in a context where there is no prior contract and no expectation of privacy does not, in Italy (the source of the term “paparazzo”) or most other places, have any rights over use of the image. So it’s a rather pointless request. It feels like an attempt to assert ownership rights.

We were also presented with this communication as coming from ChNNr’s family without further context. Is that the whole family?
I suspect it refers to the many historical photos on Facebook of the boss in intimate settings in their various homes over the years.
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:46 pm
PeterC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:24 pm The subject of an image in a context where there is no prior contract and no expectation of privacy does not, in Italy (the source of the term “paparazzo”) or most other places, have any rights over use of the image. So it’s a rather pointless request. It feels like an attempt to assert ownership rights.

We were also presented with this communication as coming from ChNNr’s family without further context. Is that the whole family?
I suspect it refers to the many historical photos on Facebook of the boss in intimate settings in their various homes over the years.
Even in a private setting there isn’t a presumption of privacy when it comes to image use. And there is also Facebook’s terms of use to consider, which like all other social media platforms grants the platform right to use in perpetuity when the image is uploaded

I guess there’s nothing wrong with making this sort of request, but there’s no compulsion behind it, and posting pictures on social media is now common practice
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Tata1 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:46 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:56 am If it’s not desired to bring it up publicly, can someone pm me and explain what this latest request to the community was about? It was vague and confusing to me, and I assume I am missing some piece of info.
Yes, it is vague and confusing, just like pretty much every official or semi-official important statement the DC in its many guises has issued since Rinpoche's passing. There it flies for those who have not read it:
Care amiche e cari amici della Comunità Dzogchen,

spesso la voglia di riportare alla memoria i momenti felici che si sono vissuti e condivisi con i nostri cari, così come quelli vissuti in tutti questi anni di cammino in comune insieme al nostro amato Chögyal Namkhai Norbu è tanto forte da farci dimenticare che le cose cambiano e la vita ci presenta spesso aspetti che in passato non erano affatto considerati.

Abbiamo vissuto momenti importanti a cui nessuno di noi si è sottratto, vissuti in armonia e collaborazione ciascuno con il proprio contributo e senza particolarismi.

La dimensione attuale dello sviluppo dei social media e la conseguente proliferazione della condivisione delle immagini attraverso un utilizzo indiscriminato e senza alcun rispetto per immagini di vita private della nostra famiglia affollano la platea dei social travisandone il senso e offendendo la memoria dei protagonisti.

Penserete, forse, che questo è il destino di persone che si sono trovate al centro dell’attenzione e, loro malgrado, sono diventati personaggi pubblici; ciò non toglie che le nostre vite e le nostre coscienze vengano turbate da questo continuo proporre immagini al di fuori e al di là del contesto da cui e in cui sono nate.

Il mondo della rete, come quello reale, è pieno di trappole e mistificazioni verso cui dovremmo cercare di esercitare la nostra consapevolezza. Vorremmo per tanto invitarvi al rispetto di queste immagini nate dal rapporto confidenziale e di fiducia con migliaia di praticanti ai quali con sincera gioia abbiamo aperto la nostra casa e il nostro cuore.

Siamo colpiti da questa continua esposizione d’immagini senza che a nessuno di noi venga richiesto il permesso, sia pure per educazione; e poiché a ciascuno è dato il diritto di proteggere la propria sfera privata, chiediamo di evitare che si continuino a utilizzare, pubblicamente, immagini che ritraggono membri della famiglia Namkhai.

Fiduciosi della vostra comprensione vi auguriamo tutto il bene possibile.

Grazie

La famiglia Namkhai


Dear friends of the Dzogchen Community,

Often the desire to recall the happy moments that have been lived and shared with our loved ones, as well as those shared in all of these years, walking together with our beloved Chögyal Namkhai Norbu is so strong that we forget that things change and life often presents us with aspects that in the past were not considered at all.

We have experienced important moments that none of us have escaped, lived in harmony and collaboration, each with his or her own contribution and without particularities.

The current dimension of the development of social media and the consequent proliferation of sharing images through indiscriminate use and without any respect for images of our family's private life crowd the social media audience, distorting their meaning and offending the memory of the protagonists.

You may think, perhaps, that this is the fate of people who have found themselves at the center of attention and, despite themselves, have become public figures; this does not prevent our lives and our consciences from being disturbed by this constant proposition of images outside and beyond the context from which and in which they were born.

The world of the network, like the real one, is full of traps and mystifications towards which we should try to exercise our awareness. We would therefore like to invite you to respect these images that arose from the confidential and trusting relationship with thousands of practitioners to whom we have opened our home and our heart with sincere joy.

We are struck by this continuous display of images without any of us being asked for permission, albeit for education; and since everyone is given the right to protect their privacy, we ask to avoid continuing the public use of images depicting members of the Namkhai family.

Confident of your understanding, we wish you all the best.

Thank you.

The Namkhai family
Does that mean one cannot share photos and video footage of Rinpoche? Probably. Cui bono? I honestly do not know.

PS. Yes, I have shared it. If it is not to be shared in public, it should have never been sent out to the DC members.

Seems its pretty straightfoward for me. Dont share our image without our consent.

Your ps seems very unconsiderate considering the content of the letter
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:51 pmSeems its pretty straightfoward for me. Dont share our image without our consent.

Your ps seems very unconsiderate considering the content of the letter
Who is "us"? ChNN as well?

Inconsiderate? Why? Frankly, I am sick and tired of asking important DC-related questions, and being told that asking questions is inconsiderate, or that it is "useless concepts."

The DC has come to excel when it comes to pretending that all is clear, there is no confusion, everything is simple and straightforward. Also, rosy in every respect. Just do not ask any questions whatsoever, do as you are told, and nicely play along, and look! No problems anymore. We have seen that scenario play itself out so many times, always ends in the same way...
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Tata1 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:09 pm
Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:51 pmSeems its pretty straightfoward for me. Dont share our image without our consent.

Your ps seems very unconsiderate considering the content of the letter
Who is "us"? ChNN as well?

Inconsiderate? Why? Frankly, I am sick and tired of asking important DC-related questions, and being told that asking questions is inconsiderate, or that it is "useless concepts."

The DC has come to excel when it comes to pretending that all is clear, there is no confusion, everything is simple and straightforward. Also, rosy in every respect. Just do not ask any questions whatsoever, do as you are told, and nicely play along, and look! No problems anymore. We have seen that scenario play itself out so many times, always ends in the same way...
Nothing about the dc was written in the email. Its the family of our teacher asking not to share media pictures without their consent. A reasonable request. And if the answer to that is sharing the letter in a public forum i find that inconsiderate
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:42 pm Nothing about the dc was written in the email. Its the family of our teacher asking not to share media pictures without their consent. A reasonable request. And if the answer to that is sharing the letter in a public forum i find that inconsiderate
This letter is pasted all over the DC space -- it is not that the DC ignores it, is it? -- and I was responding to your words, you clearly being a DC member.

As far as the reasonableness of the request goes, I wrote how I see it above.

I do not see how sharing the letter here is inconsiderate. If the family want people to stop sharing ChNN's photos online, they should be rather content that the word is spread? And spread it gets, of course, it is all over the place. Admins of various open FB DC groups (some of them gakyil members) are posting it themselves. You are being holier than the Pope.
Last edited by treehuggingoctopus on Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by heart »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:42 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:09 pm
Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:51 pmSeems its pretty straightfoward for me. Dont share our image without our consent.

Your ps seems very unconsiderate considering the content of the letter
Who is "us"? ChNN as well?

Inconsiderate? Why? Frankly, I am sick and tired of asking important DC-related questions, and being told that asking questions is inconsiderate, or that it is "useless concepts."

The DC has come to excel when it comes to pretending that all is clear, there is no confusion, everything is simple and straightforward. Also, rosy in every respect. Just do not ask any questions whatsoever, do as you are told, and nicely play along, and look! No problems anymore. We have seen that scenario play itself out so many times, always ends in the same way...
Nothing about the dc was written in the email. Its the family of our teacher asking not to share media pictures without their consent. A reasonable request. And if the answer to that is sharing the letter in a public forum i find that inconsiderate
Reality check: https://www.copytrack.com/blog/copyrigh ... y-pictures
No pictures in social media are possible to control. Maybe the request is directed at the Mirror or other DC websites?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by Tata1 »

heart wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:00 pm
Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:42 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:09 pm

Who is "us"? ChNN as well?

Inconsiderate? Why? Frankly, I am sick and tired of asking important DC-related questions, and being told that asking questions is inconsiderate, or that it is "useless concepts."

The DC has come to excel when it comes to pretending that all is clear, there is no confusion, everything is simple and straightforward. Also, rosy in every respect. Just do not ask any questions whatsoever, do as you are told, and nicely play along, and look! No problems anymore. We have seen that scenario play itself out so many times, always ends in the same way...
Nothing about the dc was written in the email. Its the family of our teacher asking not to share media pictures without their consent. A reasonable request. And if the answer to that is sharing the letter in a public forum i find that inconsiderate
Reality check: https://www.copytrack.com/blog/copyrigh ... y-pictures
No pictures in social media are possible to control.

/magnus
That doesnt mean that one cant ask our suppoused vajra brothers to be mindfull of that and try to respect it via a very polite letter. Whats so offensive about a family wanting more privacy?
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Re: Latest request from ChNNs family

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 pmWhats so offensive about a family wanting more privacy?
More to the point:

What is so offensive about a devoted student sharing inspiring photos of their beloved teacher with other devoted students?
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