What does "kido" mean? (I'm pretty sure it does not mean "energy way")

[curtstein]

One sometimes hears that "kido" (기도) means "energy way". This is based on the assumption that the corresponding Hanja is 氣道. But I am pretty sure that the actual Hanja for 기도 is 祈禱, which means something like "pray" or even "worship". Is anyone aware of any reliable Korean sources for the "energy way" (氣道) reading of "kido" (기도)?

I think it is very probable that the "energy way" explanation of "kido" is based on (1) the distaste of many western Buddhists for words like "pray" and "worship", combined with (2) the fact that 氣 (chi = "energy") and 道 (tao = "The Way") are already familiar to westerners, and (3) the fact that "energy way" actually corresponds quite well with the way people experience "kido" when they do it.

[kirtu]

One sometimes hears that "kido" (기도) means "energy way". This is based on the assumption that the corresponding Hanja is 氣道. But I am pretty sure that the actual Hanja for 기도 is 祈禱, which means something like "pray" or even "worship". Is anyone aware of any reliable Korean sources for the "energy way" (氣道) reading of "kido" (기도)?

I think it is very probable that the "energy way" explanation of "kido" is based on (1) the distaste of many western Buddhists for words like "pray" and "worship", combined with (2) the fact that 氣 (chi = "energy") and 道 (tao = "The Way") are already familiar to westerners, and (3) the fact that "energy way" actually corresponds quite well with the way people experience "kido" when they do it.

In the Kwan Um school this is chanting. One of my teachers is a Kwan Um teacher although I admit that I have not seen her in quite a while. The Kwan Um school has a significant chanting practice that in effect is an energy practice (she told me that the practice of particular chants was identified by Master Seung Sahn as energy practice so their interpretation of kido may directly hold this interpretation as well).

[Astus]

But I am pretty sure that the actual Hanja for 기도 is 祈禱, which means something like "pray" or even "worship".

That seems to be the correct reading. Here are some monasteries providing information on their regular prayers (jeong-gi/sangsi gido 정기/상시 기도): Doseonsa, Jinkwansa, Bongeunsa.

[curtstein]

That seems to be the correct reading. Here are some monasteries providing information on their regular prayers (jeong-gi/sangsi gido 정기/상시 기도): Doseonsa, Jinkwansa, Bongeunsa.

Thanks for those links. At least as far as "google translate" is concerned, 기도 (kido) is consistently translated as "prayer".

A lot of what those three temples refer to as "kido" (기도) is just what I would normally call "chanting". Among English speaking Buddhists I have usually only heard the term "kido" used for one particular type of chanting practice: where a group of people chant "Kwan Seum Bosal" together for an extended period of time. But its starting to look (at least to me) like Korean speaking Buddhists refer to just about any type of chanting as "kido".

I think it might come as a surprise to many western Buddhists to realize that "chanting" is at least in some sense really "praying"!

[KeithA]

That seems to be the correct reading. Here are some monasteries providing information on their regular prayers (jeong-gi/sangsi gido 정기/상시 기도): Doseonsa, Jinkwansa, Bongeunsa.

Thanks for those links. At least as far as "google translate" is concerned, 기도 (kido) is consistently translated as "prayer".

A lot of what those three temples refer to as "kido" (기도) is just what I would normally call "chanting". Among English speaking Buddhists I have usually only heard the term "kido" used for one particular type of chanting practice: where a group of people chant "Kwan Seum Bosal" together for an extended period of time. But its starting to look (at least to me) like Korean speaking Buddhists refer to just about any type of chanting as "kido".

I think it might come as a surprise to many western Buddhists to realize that "chanting" is at least in some sense really "praying"!

Kido practice is chanting for long periods. A kido might be the Kwan Se Um Bosal chant (start with beginning part, repeat Kwan Se Um for period of the kido, end part). Sometimes it's repeating the Great Dharani, over and over for the period of the kido. That period can be a day, week, or even a 90 day retreat.

Anyone who participates in a kido, even for a day, will understand where the energy part comes from.

Not at all concerned about it being prayer or not. Sweeping generalizations about so called "Western Buddhists" is intellectually lazy, and an exercise in ego inflation. Apologies for the crankiness!

_/|\_

[curtstein]

Kido practice is chanting for long periods. A kido might be the Kwan Se Um Bosal chant (start with beginning part, repeat Kwan Se Um for period of the kido, end part). Sometimes it's repeating the Great Dharani, over and over for the period of the kido. That period can be a day, week, or even a 90 day retreat.

I am aware of the fact that this is the way some English speaking Buddhists use the word. But "kido" is not an English word. It is a Chinese word that also exists in Korean and Japanese as a load-word from Chinese. I think that when talking about what the word "kido" means we need to take into account how it is used by the vast majority of the Buddhists who use the term.

Anyone who participates in a kido, even for a day, will understand where the energy part comes from.

That is quite true. Also I think anyone who does kido even for a day will very likely understand that it is a form of prayer and worship.

Not at all concerned about it being prayer or not. Sweeping generalizations about so called "Western Buddhists" is intellectually lazy, and an exercise in ego inflation. Apologies for the crankiness!

Well, I personally think that it is worthwhile to investigate what the words we use actually mean. And I honestly don't think that it is a sweeping generalization to say that there is resistance among many western Buddhists to talking about our practice using terms like "prayer" and "worship", and that because of that resistance many prefer the euphemism/mistranslation of "energy way".

Western Buddhists cannot simply make up definitions of traditional Buddhist terms in order to better conform to our opinions and sensibilities. Well, we can. And we do. But we shouldn't.

[Astus]

I think it might come as a surprise to many western Buddhists to realize that "chanting" is at least in some sense really "praying"!

According to this post the word entered Korean Buddhism in the modern times from Christianity. This article explains how Buddhist prayer (bulgyoi gido 불교의 기도) is unlike other religions. And this article about how to pray mentions various occasions, like meal prayer (sigsa gidomun 식사기도문; also calls it an offering gatha: gong yang ge 공양게 供養偈), birthday prayer (saeng-ilchugha gidomun 생일축하 기도문), school exam prayer (siheom gido 시험기도), also mentions dharani prayer (dalani gido 다라니기도) and that reciting a buddha's or bodhisattva's name as an easy form of prayer.

[curtstein]

According to this post the word entered Korean Buddhism in the modern times from Christianity. This article explains how Buddhist prayer (bulgyoi gido 불교의 기도) is unlike other religions. And this article about how to pray mentions various occasions, like meal prayer (sigsa gidomun 식사기도문; also calls it an offering gatha: gong yang ge 공양게 供養偈), birthday prayer (saeng-ilchugha gidomun 생일축하 기도문), school exam prayer (siheom gido 시험기도), also mentions dharani prayer (dalani gido 다라니기도) and that reciting a buddha's or bodhisattva's name as an easy form of prayer.

Well, according to the online Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, 祈禱 is indeed a Buddhist term that means "to pray ... especially for the avoidance of calamaties."

The DDB can be used by anyone - if asked for a login just use "guest" and "guest":
http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb/

The article cited by astus claims that Buddhists only started using this term in modern times due to the influences of individualism, Christianity, and capitalism. As far as I can make out, the article does not provide any evidence for this claim, other than asserting that the term is not found in the Tripitaka Koreana (which, of course, is in Chinese). And that really does appear to be merely an assertion. One of these days I will figure out how to search CBETA.

In Japan the term 祈禱 goes back at least to Dogen, who was critical of the way in which the Buddhist establishment had become overly dependent on government material support in exchange for "spiritual" support from Buddhists in the form of 祈禱 that was specifically for the benefit of the government (so-called "state protection Buddhism"). While Dogen criticized the way in which 祈禱 was being corrupted, his criticism was not of 祈禱 itself, but rather of the way it was being done. And after Dogen Keizan significantly broadened the use of 祈禱 in what would come to be known as the Sōtō school. See this article for more details and references concerning the history of 祈禱 in Japanese Buddhism:
"Brands of Zen: Kitō jiin in Contemporary Japanese Sōtō Zen Buddhism" by Tim Graf
https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/vol ... 20Graf.pdf

Getting back to Korea, though, here is an interesting quote from a paper by Seunghye Lee "A Study of Korean Pagodas: Joseon tappa ui yeon'gu, Collected Works of Modern Korean Buddhism":

There seems to be no period without
desperate wishes regardless of being affluent or not. If the politics
and religion were all degenerated and the symptoms of the decadence
became conspicuous in human ethics and the world, pure practice
and understanding cannot be expected, and the seeking of worldly
benefits, praying for good fortune, and averting calamities naturally
increase.
This aspect became particularly strong in Korean Buddhism
during the ninth century. The aspects of Buddhism for the sake of
good fortune (gido Bulgyo 祈禱佛敎) became conspicuous due to the
fusion of traditional Chinese geomancy, which was said to have been
established by the Meditation Master Yixing 一行 (683–727) at the
end of the Tang empire, and traditional Korean ritual services of
shamans.

This seems to indicate that 祈禱 was, indeed, part of the Korean Buddhist vocabulary 1000+ years ago.

[KeithA]

Kido practice is chanting for long periods. A kido might be the Kwan Se Um Bosal chant (start with beginning part, repeat Kwan Se Um for period of the kido, end part). Sometimes it's repeating the Great Dharani, over and over for the period of the kido. That period can be a day, week, or even a 90 day retreat.

I am aware of the fact that this is the way some English speaking Buddhists use the word. But "kido" is not an English word. It is a Chinese word that also exists in Korean and Japanese as a load-word from Chinese. I think that when talking about what the word "kido" means we need to take into account how it is used by the vast majority of the Buddhists who use the term.

Anyone who participates in a kido, even for a day, will understand where the energy part comes from.

That is quite true. Also I think anyone who does kido even for a day will very likely understand that it is a form of prayer and worship.

Not at all concerned about it being prayer or not. Sweeping generalizations about so called "Western Buddhists" is intellectually lazy, and an exercise in ego inflation. Apologies for the crankiness!

Well, I personally think that it is worthwhile to investigate what the words we use actually mean. And I honestly don't think that it is a sweeping generalization to say that there is resistance among many western Buddhists to talking about our practice using terms like "prayer" and "worship", and that because of that resistance many prefer the euphemism/mistranslation of "energy way".

Western Buddhists cannot simply make up definitions of traditional Buddhist terms in order to better conform to our opinions and sensibilities. Well, we can. And we do. But we shouldn't.

Sounds like we are mostly in agreement. The word was given to us (Kwan Um folks) by a Korean Seon master. We didn't make it up, or reinterpret it. He taught us that Kido was an energy practice. His words, not "western" Buddhists. But, if someone wants to call it prayer, it's all good. It's a completely pointless exercise to split those hairs.

There is no East or West in the Dharma.

_/|\_
Keith

[Astus]

The article cited by astus claims that Buddhists only started using this term in modern times due to the influences of individualism, Christianity, and capitalism.

Prayer (祈禱) appears a few times, for instance as praying to gods (祈禱神祇) for longevity; to slaughter sheep as prayer (宰羊以祈禱); and prayer in a god's temple (祈禱神廟). I assume the post meant the more widespread use of the word for all sorts of religious activities.

[curtstein]

The venerable Samguk yusa (三國遺事), compiled in 1281 by the monk Iryeon (一然) provides a very clear example of Kido (祈禱) being used to mean "to pray", in the very specific sense of praying to someone for something:

original: 羅季天成中, 正甫崔殷諴, 久無胤息, 詣玆寺大慈前祈禱.
translation: During the ending [years] of the Silla in the Tiancheng era, Jeongbo Choe Eunham for a long time [had] no sons. So he went before the shrine of Kwan Seum Bosal (大慈) and prayed (祈禱).

Kwan Seum Bosal answered his prayers and soon his wife was pregnant.

This passage is found in volume 10 of the online edition of "The Collected Works of Korean Buddhism", in the section on "Three Places with Images of Avalokiteśvara: I. Jungsaengsa 三所觀音 I. 衆生寺".
http://ibdigital.uib.es/greenstone/site ... sm_v10.pdf