Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

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PadmaVonSamba
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Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

What do you think? It doesn’t look like some major pilgrimage site, just a small roadside shrine.

Justice Anand Venkatesh also ordered that the sculpture be restored to its original state, stating that to
“continue treating the sculpture as that of Thalaivetti Muniappan would be against the tenets of Buddhism.”


In an unusual ruling that could set a potential legal precedent for the original nature of places of worship in India, the Madras High Court has ruled that a religious site in the state of Tamil Nadu that has been used as a Hindu temple contains an ancient statue of Buddhist origin. The court has also ordered the suspension of religious observances at the site.

An archaeological investigation into Thalavetti Muniyappan Temple in Salem, the fourth-largest city in Tamil Nadu, has revealed that the statue that had been worshipped as a Hindu village deity, was originally a sculpture of the Buddha. As a result, the court has instructed the Tamil Nadu State Department of Archaeology to take control of the site and suspend any further religious activity within the premises.

more:
https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/india ... ha-statue/
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Someone has just opened a really large can of worms and they will crawl madly off in all directions.
Who, for instance, is going to tell the Turks that their Grand Mosque Hagia Sofia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia should be returned to the Christians? Or sort out Angkor Wat and hand back bits of it to the Hindus who don't live there any more anyway? And what about the pagan 'holy wells' scattered throughout Britain and Europe which have been incorporated into Christian churchyards? Should the Druids reclaim them?
:rolleye:

:popcorn:
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by kirtu »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:39 am Someone has just opened a really large can of worms and they will crawl madly off in all directions.
Who, for instance, is going to tell the Turks that their Grand Mosque Hagia Sofia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia should be returned to the Christians? Or sort out Angkor Wat and hand back bits of it to the Hindus who don't live there any more anyway?
Well the context here is the result of increasing Indian Hindu religious nationalism and the inflexible laws they passed as a result

And what about the pagan 'holy wells' scattered throughout Britain and Europe which have been incorporated into Christian churchyards? Should the Druids reclaim them?
Some pagans do want to reclaim them
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Miorita
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Miorita »

The images are at: https://www.wayofbodhi.org/wp-content/uploads/

Also:
The nose that was added to the statue didn’t come out well. The outcome looked a little wrathful, unlike the usual Buddha statues. The eyes were also later painted in a wrathful way. So people consider it as some fierce local god and worship him that way with animal sacrifice. Thalaivetti means with a cut head.
Then,
தலைவெட்டப்பட்ட புத்தர் சிலை:

குறிப்பாக கி.பி. 16 ஆம் ஆண்டில் சமய பூசல்களின்போது சமண, புத்தர்கள் விரட்டியடிக்கப்பட்டனர். மேலும், அவர்கள் வழிபட்ட புத்த, சமண சிற்பங்களின் தலை உடைக்கப்பட்டு வீசப்பட்டது. அதுபோன்றுதான் சேலம் கோட்டையில் உள்ள புத்தரின் சிலையின் தலை உடைக்கப்பட்டது. நாளடைவில் இந்த சிலையின் தலை மீண்டும் ஒட்டவைக்கப்பட்டது. ஆனால், தலை வெட்டப்பட்டு, மீண்டும் ஒட்டப்பட்டதால் இந்த சிலை இடது பக்கமாக சாய்ந்துள்ளது. தலை வெட்டப்பட்டு பின்பு ஒட்டப்பட்டதால் தலைவெட்டி முனியப்பன் என்று மக்கள் அழைத்து வழிபடத் தொடங்கினர்.

தலைவெட்டி முனியப்பன் சிலை, புத்தர் சிலை என சென்னை உயர் நீதிமன்றம் உத்தரவிட்டுள்ள நிலையில் தொல்லியல் துறை கட்டுப்பாட்டில் சிலை ஒப்படைக்கப்படும். அதேவேளையில் கொல்லாமையை வலியுறுத்திய புத்தர் சிலை முன்பு இனி உயிர்ப் பலி தடுக்கப்பட வேண்டும் என்றார்.
That is:
Beheaded Buddha statue:

Especially in A.D. In the 16th year, the Jains and The Buddhas were driven out during religious disputes. Moreover, the heads of the Buddhist and Jain sculptures they worshipped were broken and thrown away. Similarly, the head of the Buddha's statue in salem fort was broken. In course of time, the head of the statue was affixed again. But the statue is tilted to the left as the head has been cut off and pasted again. Since the head was cut off and then pasted, people started worshipping as Thalaivetti Muniyappan.

The statue will be handed over to the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) after the Madras High Court ordered that the statue of Thalaivetti Muniyappan and the Statue of Buddha will be handed over. At the same time, he insisted on non-killing and said that the loss of life in front of the Buddha statue should now be prevented.
I did the reading. :twothumbsup:
https://www.dinamani.com/tamilnadu/2022 ... 92590.html

No animal puja before the idol which is Buddha in Ardha Padmasana (meaning half- Lotus! :lol:)!

What can I say? It is revealing this position in lotus. Buddha has a sense of humor. :D

As for the chickens, goats and other animals sacrificed, it's the villagers' karma of ignorance. They should have known their own history and that you don't just come across a "beheaded deity". It doesn't fall from the sky especially for you because you're the navel of the Universe.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

kirtu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:58 am Well the context here is the result of increasing Indian Hindu religious nationalism and the inflexible laws they passed as a result
That was my first thought.
So is this an effort to stand up to Hindu Nationalists (who many link with fascists)?
Because otherwise one would think there would be a strong effort to keep it as a Hindu temple.

In any case, the article suggests,
this is likely to stir a lot of things up!
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:53 am
kirtu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:58 am Well the context here is the result of increasing Indian Hindu religious nationalism and the inflexible laws they passed as a result
That was my first thought.
So is this an effort to stand up to Hindu Nationalists (who many link with fascists)?
Honestly? I kind of think this is just a rather naive judge doing his job as best as he can or possibly a judge that is well aware of the consequences and is ready to open the can of worms if the law says so.

Either way, this has the potential to wreak havoc.

It could possibly just be a line of thought that Buddhism is part of Sanatana Dharma (which I have heard Hindus claim all of the time, just recently a young Brahmin guy that found his way to my office ... in the middle of Central Europe, how lucky). So it is worth it to lose a small shrine if it could mean getting back muslim sites.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Natan »

It would be great if India was restored to it's Buddhist origin. Those dang Brahmins took over and messed the place up!
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by kirtu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:53 am
kirtu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:58 am Well the context here is the result of increasing Indian Hindu religious nationalism and the inflexible laws they passed as a result
That was my first thought.
So is this an effort to stand up to Hindu Nationalists (who many link with fascists)?
Because otherwise one would think there would be a strong effort to keep it as a Hindu temple.
No not likely. It's just a consequence of the nationalist religious laws they passed along with being inflexible about them.
Another poster suggests that it is a consequence of including Buddhism in Sananta Dharma and this may also be part of it.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by kirtu »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:48 am It could possibly just be a line of thought that Buddhism is part of Sanatana Dharma (which I have heard Hindus claim all of the time, just recently a young Brahmin guy that found his way to my office ... in the middle of Central Europe, how lucky). So it is worth it to lose a small shrine if it could mean getting back muslim sites.
Likely.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Miorita
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Miorita »

I went by searching the photo provided.
From what I read this is an approach that gave fruit because the Buddhists in the area recognized the statues (there are other as well) and made claims. The Indian Buddhist Association filled a petition to the Madras High Court. The land belongs to the Hindu Religious ... Dept in ... of Salem District.
They made the petition to the Hindu Religious Department and no action was taken. The Department was passive.
The Madras High Court orders an inspection by the Archeological Department in Tamil Nadu (where Babaji sits) to find out what statue is the statue. Is it the idol or is it Buddha?
The temple building of Thalaivetti Muniyappan temple has a modern look. The statue there is made of hard stone. On the lotus peeta, there is an idol in a sitting position called 'Arthapadmasana'. The hands are with the meditative mudra. The markings of Buddha are on the head of the statue. The archaeological and historical evidence was examined. In it, it was stated that the sculpture was a statue of Buddha with great features.
This was a teaching, I mean reading again. :rolling:
(Peeta is from "piatra" that means rock. it's a peetrock, you know.. peeta! We drop "ck' and "gh" because it is inconvenient.Imagine spoongh for a spoon! :lol:)

However, it is the Archeological Department's findings.

Because he is Anand Venkatesh (Vishnu and Krishna together), he passed this order: "It is a Buddha Statue."
The villagers (commoners) cannot lie. And they have to stop rituals and cruelty on animals dedicated to fiercely looking idol who is Buddha.

Black magic has to stop. Babaji doesn't like it. Buddha even less so. :bow:

“thalaivan/thalaivar” have multiple meanings such as leader, chief, headman, lord, King, ruler, governor, husband, guru, elder brother, great person, God, hero of a love-poem and hero of a story as used in the ancient Tamil literatures.

From the same source, dinamani.com, we find out that the statue was brought there 300 BCE, in the time of Ashoka. 3 grounds of land also belong to the Buddhist Trust and no idols can be positioned there and be worshipped.
In the 1960s and 1970s, the Dravidar Kazhagam put up a banner in front of the Thalaivetti Muniappan temple saying 'Buddha Temple' and stopped the sacrifice of goats and chickens in the Periyar temple.
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

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Statue row: Buddhist monks seek permission to pray
Stating that the Madras High Court had held that a statue in a temple on Fort Road was that of Buddha, a few Buddhist monks came to the temple on Thursday, urging the authorities to let them offer prayers there.

For years, the people of Salem worshipped the statue as that of Thalaivetti Muniappan. Claiming that it was a Buddha statue, some people moved the Madras High Court in 2011. In July this year, the Madras High Court, based on a report by the Archaeological Department, confirmed that it was a Buddha statue and ordered the Department to take control of the temple.

On Thursday, some Buddhist monks came to the temple and urged that the flower garlands on the statue be removed. A few locals objected to it. On receiving information, Shevapet police came to the spot and told the monks that the HR&CE Department was yet to hand over the temple to the Archaeological Department, and they could offer prayers once that was done.

Based on this, the monks left the temple.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:54 pm It would be great if India was restored to it's Buddhist origin. Those dang Brahmins took over and messed the place up!
Ummm... by that logic, it would be great if India was restored to it's Vedic origins. Those dang Buddhists took over and messed the place up!

:juggling:
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Natan »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:28 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:54 pm It would be great if India was restored to it's Buddhist origin. Those dang Brahmins took over and messed the place up!
Ummm... by that logic, it would be great if India was restored to it's Vedic origins. Those dang Buddhists took over and messed the place up!

:juggling:
Kim
India doesn't have Vedic origins. That's fake news.
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

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:popcorn:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

After watching so many episodes of ancient aliens I just hope India has human origins. :alien: :spy:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Miorita »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:45 pm After watching so many episodes of ancient aliens I just hope India has human origins. :alien: :spy:
Nope! That's wishful thinking.
They are all reincarnations. :sage:
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:41 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:28 am
Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:54 pm It would be great if India was restored to it's Buddhist origin. Those dang Brahmins took over and messed the place up!
Ummm... by that logic, it would be great if India was restored to it's Vedic origins. Those dang Buddhists took over and messed the place up!

:juggling:
Kim
India doesn't have Vedic origins. That's fake news.
True. Proto-Indo-Iranian tribes seem to have originated in the Sintashta culture (2050-1900 BCE), around the Caspian Sea. They split between 2000 BCE and 1600 BCE. Indo-Aryans moved into Bactria, and borrowed from the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex ( 2250–1700 BC). Some of these peoples moved to Northen Syria [Hittities], the rest moved south into Punjab, while the Iranians arrived in Western Iran around 1300 BCE. In general, the Indo-Aryans began to move into India in waves between 2000-1600 BCE. The Rig Veda seems to date to around 1200-1000 BCE.
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:20 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:41 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:28 am
Ummm... by that logic, it would be great if India was restored to it's Vedic origins. Those dang Buddhists took over and messed the place up!

:juggling:
Kim
India doesn't have Vedic origins. That's fake news.
True. Proto-Indo-Iranian tribes seem to have originated in the Sintashta culture (2050-1900 BCE), around the Caspian Sea. They split between 2000 BCE and 1600 BCE. Indo-Aryans moved into Bactria, and borrowed from the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex ( 2250–1700 BC). Some of these peoples moved to Northen Syria [Hittities], the rest moved south into Punjab, while the Iranians arrived in Western Iran around 1300 BCE. In general, the Indo-Aryans began to move into India in waves between 2000-1600 BCE. The Rig Veda seems to date to around 1200-1000 BCE.
My pops was from Punjab.
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by PeterC »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:39 am Someone has just opened a really large can of worms and they will crawl madly off in all directions.
Who, for instance, is going to tell the Turks that their Grand Mosque Hagia Sofia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia should be returned to the Christians? Or sort out Angkor Wat and hand back bits of it to the Hindus who don't live there any more anyway? And what about the pagan 'holy wells' scattered throughout Britain and Europe which have been incorporated into Christian churchyards? Should the Druids reclaim them?
:rolleye:

:popcorn:
Kim
There's really no end to that rabbit hole. Angkor Wat is fun, because you can see what were Buddha statues that were subsequently re-carved into Shivas, Shivalingams repurposed into Buddhist iconography, etc. Nobody owns anything, ultimately.
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Re: Hindu Temple closed for Buddhist Statue

Post by Tukaram »

India takes deities very seriously (Hindus anyway). I remember back in the early 70s the Hare Krishnas were in a land dispute. Before the case went to court they quickly installed a deity. The deity, once installed and worshipped, has a lot of rights apparently. They won the case, kept the land, and built a big temple.

Not sure about an "incorrect" deity...
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