Refining a Meditative Practice

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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kirtu
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:18 am Thank you for your advice. You seem to have something to do with Antaiji judging from your nickname, don't you?
No, my nickname is my first name + the first initial of my last name.
I always try to recall this "Kaku-soku" when I practice Zazen in my room.
Then you have the instruction ...
By the way, I know some Soto monks near my home via studying Zen related ancient books and appreciating Buddhism art. On the occasions of such meetings, I try to learn Zen spirit from them, but they seem prone to stress their ideas with words written in book instead of their own experiences or opinion. It is really a shame that I cannot take advantage of such a valuable opportunity.
Perhaps they don't actually sit (or perhaps they are just reluctant). If you sit you will have some experience but you need to confirm that you are "on track" with a teacher. So you need to find one, even if you can only interact with them remotely and occasionally. There are still indeed practice zendos in Japan.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:06 am Thank you for your comment. I think both Buddhism and ancient Chinese philosophy are said to be rather intuitive than logical in comparison with western philosophy.
Buddhism comes directly from the direct seeing of Shakyamuni Buddha. This was not intuitive. It is his direct seeing into reality. Having said that he taught a variety of practices and approaches for different people.

Buddhist philosophy is mostly an attempt to systematize Shakyamuni Buddha's teaching. If the Buddhist philosophers themselves had some degree of attainment then this is valuable (it can lead to liberation). This is something that Buddhists have to evaluate for themselves.
While I have been practicing Zazen for almost a decade everyday by attracting its being simple and concurrently profoundness to the contrary, it is a fact that I am annoyed with various noises from outside , due probably to my ego which I have been trying to remove from me for a long time. So I came to think it possibly helpful for me to adopt other meditation to prevent me from being exposed from the noises.
You can't do anything about outside noises. Unfortunately lots of people are addicted to quiet. I was lucky in that when I resumed meditation practice as a young adult, when I sat with others on Saturday mornings, right after we began practice, workers on the street began using jackhammers and other industrial tools to work on the street. This went on for at least six months. There was nothing we could do and everyone in that group at least got used to that fact.

Where does this noise come from? Where does it go? Does the noise have any permanence? It's impermanent like all things. It doesn't exist by itself. You find it annoying. But why? Why are you reacting to it? Is the noise important (some noises are important - If someone or something is injured then we need to help them)? Otherwise there is nothing we can do. The main problem is that you are reacting to the noise. So you are making a big deal out of the noise. Noise and quiet are both the same. They both arise from causes and conditions and neither ultimately exist. They are both just momentary. Other forms of meditation won't really help (except for some people chanting will help a little just because you are making noise yourself). So the problem lies with your reaction to the noise. Like everything that arises in zazen you have to drop it.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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kirtu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:10 pm
You can't do anything about outside noises. Unfortunately lots of people are addicted to quiet. I was lucky in that when I resumed meditation practice as a young adult, when I sat with others on Saturday mornings, right after we began practice, workers on the street began using jackhammers and other industrial tools to work on the street. This went on for at least six months. There was nothing we could do and everyone in that group at least got used to that fact.

Where does this noise come from? Where does it go? Does the noise have any permanence? It's impermanent like all things. It doesn't exist by itself. You find it annoying. But why? Why are you reacting to it? Is the noise important (some noises are important - If someone or something is injured then we need to help them)? Otherwise there is nothing we can do. The main problem is that you are reacting to the noise. So you are making a big deal out of the noise. Noise and quiet are both the same. They both arise from causes and conditions and neither ultimately exist. They are both just momentary. Other forms of meditation won't really help (except for some people chanting will help a little just because you are making noise yourself). So the problem lies with your reaction to the noise. Like everything that arises in zazen you have to drop it.
does meditation is good for the noises?

I believe it is good for the noises and stress. :smile:
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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master of puppets wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:19 pm
does meditation is good for the noises?

I believe it is good for the noises and stress. :smile:
I'm not sure what you mean.

Some people are addicted to quiet and don't like noise of any kind when they meditate. If they hear a noise their mind will react and they will follow the noise or follow the reaction.

They just need to let that reaction go and return to the object of meditation. In this sense noise is good for meditation. Obstacles become jet-fuel for our practice rather than something we stumble over.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
master of puppets
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by master of puppets »

kirtu wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:22 am
master of puppets wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:19 pm
does meditation is good for the noises?

I believe it is good for the noises and stress. :smile:
I'm not sure what you mean.

Some people are addicted to quiet and don't like noise of any kind when they meditate. If they hear a noise their mind will react and they will follow the noise or follow the reaction.

They just need to let that reaction go and return to the object of meditation. In this sense noise is good for meditation. Obstacles become jet-fuel for our practice rather than something we stumble over.
sorry, I mean that there is a lot of noise around; and mostly come from the people. you know everybody speaks. does it end in an advanced state?? as I am sure it is. when you come to a calm state.

I also know meditation is good for stress in the same way, as in the noises.

so if one would ask me the benefit of meditation, I will surely say that it is good for the noises and stress. 😄
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

master of puppets wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:19 pm
kirtu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:10 pm
You can't do anything about outside noises. Unfortunately lots of people are addicted to quiet. I was lucky in that when I resumed meditation practice as a young adult, when I sat with others on Saturday mornings, right after we began practice, workers on the street began using jackhammers and other industrial tools to work on the street. This went on for at least six months. There was nothing we could do and everyone in that group at least got used to that fact.

Where does this noise come from? Where does it go? Does the noise have any permanence? It's impermanent like all things. It doesn't exist by itself. You find it annoying. But why? Why are you reacting to it? Is the noise important (some noises are important - If someone or something is injured then we need to help them)? Otherwise there is nothing we can do. The main problem is that you are reacting to the noise. So you are making a big deal out of the noise. Noise and quiet are both the same. They both arise from causes and conditions and neither ultimately exist. They are both just momentary. Other forms of meditation won't really help (except for some people chanting will help a little just because you are making noise yourself). So the problem lies with your reaction to the noise. Like everything that arises in zazen you have to drop it.
does meditation is good for the noises?

I believe it is good for the noises and stress. :smile:
Oh, I made a mistake, having taken your small icon for your nick name. As well, what I mentioned about the noise was likely to make you have misunderstood. The noise I meant was not only one amid practicing Zazen and was passing by myself as such transmitted from human's mouth to mouth and from electric apparatuses almost all day long day after day. So it usually occupies my mind for a long time and makes me nervous and annoyed persistently like a ghost. I am trying to wipe out such noise by any means but I often must give in. Unlike a temporary noise or illusion, I cannot get rid of it by means of that Kaku-soku. As the monk Uchiyama repeatedly mentioned, I desperately like to live my own life by renouncing all virtual life based on an abstract idealistic one reflecting others' way of living.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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master of puppets wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:44 am
sorry, I mean that there is a lot of noise around; and mostly come from the people. you know everybody speaks. does it end in an advanced state?? as I am sure it is. when you come to a calm state.

I also know meditation is good for stress in the same way, as in the noises.

so if one would ask me the benefit of meditation, I will surely say that it is good for the noises and stress. 😄

I have always found meditation in noisy places to be easier than in a totally quiet space, although that works too. But this might be because my mind is very noisy anyway.

Meditation in a noisy place is not an advanced practice. The thing to remember is this:

Usually, people experience everything without any awareness of experiencing it. We don’t think, “now this mind is experiencing a quiet room, now this mind is experiencing a noisy room”. If we are feeling hungry, we eat something. We don’t stop and look at the mind which is experiencing hunger.

But in meditation, you take it to that next level. You watch your mind, just as a scientist watches a mouse who is lost in a maze. The mind of the mouse is confused, but the observing mind of the scientist is clear. He or she sees the mouse and the mouse’s confusion, and the whole maze too. So, you rest in that clear mind, the mind that is watching the activity of the mind.

If you are meditating in a quiet place and it becomes noisy, do you focus on the noise? That’s what most people naturally do. But you should focus on the mind that hears the noise. That mind isn’t loud or quiet. It’s just aware. So, become aware of your awareness.

I don’t think your mind can achieve direct awareness if you are busy ‘desperately’ trying to do anything. And if you are desperately trying to establish some fixed point for living, like a bird trying to build a nest in the wind, you are probably going to face even more noise and distractions.

Maybe just don’t try so hard and let things come and go naturally. Since you are a zen person, I suggest studying On Believing In Mind:

http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/faith_in_mind.htm

I think this addresses exactly what you are dealing with.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:04 pm
I don’t think your mind can achieve direct awareness if you are busy ‘desperately’ trying to do anything.
🙏
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 8:26 am Oh, I made a mistake, having taken your small icon for your nick name.
Oh. The icon/avatar I have is almost always something to do with my teachers (from multiple Buddhist lineages), or with the lineages I have taken teaching from, usually in Tibetan Buddhism or more often from Buddhism in Hawai'i that I experienced directly when I was living there, and then almost always from the Byodo-in Temple near Kaneohe, Hawai'i on O'ahu. Byodo-in on O'ahu, a replica of the Byodo-in Temple in Uji, Japan, is a non-sectarian "temple" that has become a kind of tourist attraction in the middle of a huge cemetery but it played a very significant role in my life. The icon/avatar I just put up, a Tibetan Buddhist large Amitabha, is the closest representation I have seen so far to a huge Buddha appearing in a dream the night before my first visit to Byodo-in.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Bodhicitta is essentially the first step in the path to Buddhist enlightenment. Having said that it can already be too much for lots of people. But basically Bodhicitta can be summarized to start with as a mind of kindness. This then can develop more fully. This is also true in Zen (although Zen has been criticized as having relatively less emphasis on bodhicitta - this is not what I experienced when I was a full-time Zen student [full-time but with a job in a city and not a monastic in a temple] although I now practice in the Tibetan lineages).
Today I like to ask you my questions relevant to Bodhicitta concurrently taking account of Tariki-hongan vs Jiriki-hongan even though this forum may not have anything to do with this kind of discussion. I previously said I was a Buddhism-oriented person simultaneously affected by Zen and True or Truth Pure Land. As you know well and you implied in the above sentences, Zen monks, except Chinese Zen monks and Japanese Ohbaku Zen monks, pursue self-salvation whereas and they abide by Bodhicitta as you referred in the above. However, I have a similar impression with yours about Zen's features relevant to attitude toward other people. Frankly speaking, I have been always troubled with this issue. Dogen was told by his Chinese master to raise successors place far away from populated area not affected by political forces and he implemented as told. Taking account of actually, it is less possible to implement Bodhicitta in such a place where monks have less opportunity to meet other people. What do Tibetan Buddhism or other sects think about this contradiction? Since I have not been able to solve this issue for along time, I could not but come to believe in salvation by faith to Amitabha who accepts all ignorant people and denies all intentional attempts. In other words, I might be able to practice almost all strict promises but I am not supposed to become a person taking utmost care of other people.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:04 pm
master of puppets wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 7:44 am
sorry, I mean that there is a lot of noise around; and mostly come from the people. you know everybody speaks. does it end in an advanced state?? as I am sure it is. when you come to a calm state.

I also know meditation is good for stress in the same way, as in the noises.

so if one would ask me the benefit of meditation, I will surely say that it is good for the noises and stress. 😄

I have always found meditation in noisy places to be easier than in a totally quiet space, although that works too. But this might be because my mind is very noisy anyway.

Meditation in a noisy place is not an advanced practice. The thing to remember is this:

Usually, people experience everything without any awareness of experiencing it. We don’t think, “now this mind is experiencing a quiet room, now this mind is experiencing a noisy room”. If we are feeling hungry, we eat something. We don’t stop and look at the mind which is experiencing hunger.

But in meditation, you take it to that next level. You watch your mind, just as a scientist watches a mouse who is lost in a maze. The mind of the mouse is confused, but the observing mind of the scientist is clear. He or she sees the mouse and the mouse’s confusion, and the whole maze too. So, you rest in that clear mind, the mind that is watching the activity of the mind.

If you are meditating in a quiet place and it becomes noisy, do you focus on the noise? That’s what most people naturally do. But you should focus on the mind that hears the noise. That mind isn’t loud or quiet. It’s just aware. So, become aware of your awareness.

I don’t think your mind can achieve direct awareness if you are busy ‘desperately’ trying to do anything. And if you are desperately trying to establish some fixed point for living, like a bird trying to build a nest in the wind, you are probably going to face even more noise and distractions.

Maybe just don’t try so hard and let things come and go naturally. Since you are a zen person, I suggest studying On Believing In Mind:

http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/faith_in_mind.htm

I think this addresses exactly what you are dealing with.
Thank you for your introducing URL to me as to instruction of Zen. As you may know, we living in Japan are given no less opportunity to encounter this kind of messages but unfortunately we have not so enough knowledge or talent to understand what this mean. In fact, I have so far read this kind of books so often but I could not notice there were so significant differences among them. This may be caused by that I have enough chances only to touch materials written in characters despite touching no chance of behaviors actually shown by Buddhism masters. It is most likely to reflect, to the contrary, Zen motto “enlightenment by means no words” symbolically. Taking account of these suggestions of yours, I like to repeat my previous reference to famous Soto monk Uchiyama’s instruction to put emphasis “Kaku-soku”, paraphrased into “distinguishing oneself under meditation between one pursuing something emerging in the mind and the other one observing that one” on Zazen mediators. In view of another aspect, he always emphasized an importance to live one’s own life actually instead of living an emulated life abstractly. Amid practicing Zazen, I try to become Zazen itself based on his emphasis. As well, I try to set me free from my fixed idea about everything making me adhere to my ego by trying to leave dualism for monism.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Working with my zen teacher has profoundly refined my practice. I still sit and so on, but working with him showed me the essence of the practice is living it, not simply doing all the things and expecting a result. Personally, I find the zendo procedures and ceremonies not a little silly and tedious in their minute detail- but will do them with all good will when I'm there, not because they are the rules but because theyare the form of the communal dance when we're practicing together- and that, to me, is of profound importance.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:11 am
Bodhicitta is essentially the first step in the path to Buddhist enlightenment. Having said that it can already be too much for lots of people. But basically Bodhicitta can be summarized to start with as a mind of kindness. This then can develop more fully. This is also true in Zen (although Zen has been criticized as having relatively less emphasis on bodhicitta - this is not what I experienced when I was a full-time Zen student [full-time but with a job in a city and not a monastic in a temple] although I now practice in the Tibetan lineages).
However, I have a similar impression with yours about Zen's features relevant to attitude toward other people. Frankly speaking, I have been always troubled with this issue.
OTOH this is someone looking at other people and judging them. OTOH it can really happen that people's Bodhicitta is still not more fully developed. It will develop more perfectly as one continues to practice, but ...
Dogen was told by his Chinese master to raise successors place far away from populated area not affected by political forces and he implemented as told. Taking account of actually, it is less possible to implement Bodhicitta in such a place where monks have less opportunity to meet other people. What do Tibetan Buddhism or other sects think about this contradiction?
We need interaction with others to help develop Bodhicitta. This can be difficult because people have deluded themselves in infinite ways. Some people will assume the worst in us all the time, so generally we might have to distance ourselves from them. But most people don't do that but still judge us from the outside and are themselves deluded.

People living in isolation are not usually total hermits, most still interact with other people at least occasionally. However many people in intensive Zen training are in a structure where they can't interact so much, not even with the people immediately around them. This can lead to this kind of problem with "Samurai Zen", as it is called in the west, where open warm-hearted relations with others and opportunities to help one another are diminished and then often ignored.

My main Zen teacher usually said "See the perfection." It can take us a while to see the perfection. One of the perfections is that people are fundamentally actually enlightened, esp. in Zen. As a result people are actually naturally kind and compassionate but these qualities have been buried. How this plays out is quite individual.

There was a great Tibetan yogi saint named Milarepa. He had been pressured by his mother to perform black magic to take revenge on other family members who stole their wealth after the death of the husband/father. Milarepa was successful but as a consequence understood that he had accumulated great negative karma. In addition many of the villagers wanted to kill Milarepa. Milarepa did eventually attain enlightenment. But prior to becoming recognized as a saintly person he moved back near his village in a cave. Even isolated sometimes he had contact with the villagers who usually though he was still an evil person. In response he is said to have said that one needed others to really develop qualities like patience and forbearance (or in this case loving-kindness and compassion as precursor to developing Bodhicitta).
In other words, I might be able to practice almost all strict promises but I am not supposed to become a person taking utmost care of other people.
We are indeed supposed to care for other people, other living beings, the entire world, as best we can.
Today I like to ask you my questions relevant to Bodhicitta concurrently taking account of Tariki-hongan vs Jiriki-hongan ...
I think this development from Kamakura Buddhism is wrong. IMO this dualistic view is false, even though it is heavily expounded by Japanese Pure Land Schools. Pure Land practice is one of the right medicines but have created a doctrinal, theological problem, a blind-spot, a trap.
Since I have not been able to solve this issue for along time, I could not but come to believe in salvation by faith to Amitabha who accepts all ignorant people and denies all intentional attempts.
Okay. But this is how Amitabha is interpreted within Japanese Pure Land. Chinese and other Pure Land schools generally don't agree with the "and denies all intentional attempts" part. Certainly Tibetan Pure Land does not (there is no specific Tibetan Pure Land school per se but Pure Land teaching and practice in two major, different forms exists in all the Tibetan lineages).
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote:Since I have not been able to solve this issue for along time, I could not but come to believe in salvation by faith to Amitabha who accepts all ignorant people and denies all intentional attempts.
Japanese Pure Land includes Jodo Shu Buddhism, founded by Honen Shonin and based on Shantao's writings.

In Mahayana Buddhism, the reason one wishes to attain birth in Amida Buddha's land is to become free from suffering and liberate all sentient beings. However, Honen writes that we may have given rise to this Mahayana aspiration many times before, but we haven't yet managed to free ourselves from Samsara. He wrote that, in the Jodo Shu presentation, aspiration for enlightenment is to seek birth in the Pure Land first, where we can bring this Mahayana vow to bear.

The matter of self- and other-power is in this context of whether one accumulates merit and wisdom in order to attain buddhahood in this very life and body (Holy Gate), or whether one focuses on an intimate karmic relationship with Amida Buddha and attaining birth (Pure Land Gate).
For instance, do I purify by reciting the Seven-Limb Prayer or the nembutsu? Do I recite the Nirvana Sutra or the Three Pure Land Sutras? When I cultivate virtue, what motivates me: the Two Accumulations or intimacy with Amida Buddha?

To answer how we should cultivate, Honen presents the framework of the Three Minds and Four Modes of Practice.
These are attitudes and activities that support of a life of faith in the Three Jewels and Amida Buddha. Honen wrote that we should take up those activities which promote birth and religious practice, making our lifestyles supportive of nembutsu.
The Sincere Mind, for example, has very much to do with how we view ourselves and treat others.

Honen also frequently says we should not shy away from aiming for birth in the high grade, so we can return to save sentient beings as soon as possible. When we want to cross a moat 10 feet wide, he wrote, we should attempt to jump 15 feet. He drew a direct link between grade of birth and our cultivation of nembutsu and the Three Minds in this life.

There are likely differences that can be drawn between Honen's practice recommendations and those of Shinran, but I don't know the Shin teachings well enough to say more.
Namu Amida Butsu
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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narhwal90 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:27 am Working with my zen teacher has profoundly refined my practice. I still sit and so on, but working with him showed me the essence of the practice is living it, not simply doing all the things and expecting a result. Personally, I find the zendo procedures and ceremonies not a little silly and tedious in their minute detail- but will do them with all good will when I'm there, not because they are the rules but because theyare the form of the communal dance when we're practicing together- and that, to me, is of profound importance.
I feel envious of you with having followed such a good Zen teacher. There are quite a number of Zen temples, even all small ones, near my home, and I got acquainted with some monks out of them and keep in touch with them via a common taste such as Buddhist art and reading a book about Zen spirit relevant episodes written in ancient Kanji characters even via which I could hardly learn vivid or profound lesson from them directly. They seem interested in brushing up their knowledge via these kinds of opportunities but they do not seem have so much motivation in deepening Zen spirit to others like me or themselves somehow. Of course, they well know how to practice Zazen in view of its formality and teach beginners it in a kind manner. However, their attitude seems just up to the extent within a formalism which hardly inspires nothing essential to Zen to participants.
It is a shame but an actual status of current Buddhist society except very few cases.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

[/quote]
However, I have a similar impression with yours about Zen's features relevant to attitude toward other people. Frankly speaking, I have been always troubled with this issue.
[/quote]
OTOH this is someone looking at other people and judging them. OTOH it can really happen that people's Bodhicitta is still not more fully developed. It will develop more perfectly as one continues to practice, but ...

My main Zen teacher usually said "See the perfection." It can take us a while to see the perfection. One of the perfections is that people are fundamentally actually enlightened, esp. in Zen. As a result people are actually naturally kind and compassionate but these qualities have been buried. How this plays out is quite individual.
In other words, I might be able to practice almost all strict promises but I am not supposed to become a person taking utmost care of other people.
We are indeed supposed to care for other people, other living beings, the entire world, as best we can.

[/quote]
I think it possible to learn an essence of Buddhism bit by bit as far as I can live but I do like to know immediately how I can practice Bodhicitta to come to learn how wonderful I can live with other people as a famous psychologist, Dr. Adler insisted. Even though it is very hard to learn, I am ready to do so as mentioned above. So I do like to know how I can live by dedicating myself to harmonizing myself with the others including all creatures and non-creatures.
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:51 am
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:27 am Working with my zen teacher has profoundly refined my practice. I still sit and so on, but working with him showed me the essence of the practice is living it, not simply doing all the things and expecting a result. Personally, I find the zendo procedures and ceremonies not a little silly and tedious in their minute detail- but will do them with all good will when I'm there, not because they are the rules but because theyare the form of the communal dance when we're practicing together- and that, to me, is of profound importance.
I feel envious of you with having followed such a good Zen teacher. There are quite a number of Zen temples, even all small ones, near my home, and I got acquainted with some monks out of them and keep in touch with them via a common taste such as Buddhist art and reading a book about Zen spirit relevant episodes written in ancient Kanji characters even via which I could hardly learn vivid or profound lesson from them directly. They seem interested in brushing up their knowledge via these kinds of opportunities but they do not seem have so much motivation in deepening Zen spirit to others like me or themselves somehow. Of course, they well know how to practice Zazen in view of its formality and teach beginners it in a kind manner. However, their attitude seems just up to the extent within a formalism which hardly inspires nothing essential to Zen to participants.
It is a shame but an actual status of current Buddhist society except very few cases.
Working with art and Kanji and formality is fine, my guy does that sometimes- he conducts painting lessons within the sangha. I wonder if your expectations about what Zen practice is might be blinding you to it. My guy patiently waited for a year for me to get tired of digging around in sutras and intellectual exercises, it was up to me to finally learn to stop grabbing at that stuff and begin my own practice. Zen practice can involve refined and subtle intellectual/spiritual activity, it can just as fully involve just sweeping dirt off a sidewalk. At the moment my practice is oriented around the Vows and Precepts as interpreted in daily activity, perhaps it will be different later.

Personally, I don't respond much to the formalism though some do OTOH I support it because from my perspective all that stuff is the tree and branches, large and small, that provide the basis for the "warm hand to warm hand" way of demonstrating the practice. Without those things I think a lineage ends quickly.

Which is not to say all teachers are great, or that any given teacher is suitable. Having been in the game for a bit now, I've learned of notorious Zen folks I wouldn't go near, but that sort of thing seems to have been true since Zen day 0. For me, I had to get stuck in attending regular sangha meetings, to observe the relationships operating and ultimately participate. I chose to pursue a teacher/student relationship after observing the roshi's behavior in response to both good and bad circumstances.
Parsifal
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by Parsifal »

明安 Myoan wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:54 pm
The matter of self- and other-power is in this context of whether one accumulates merit and wisdom in order to attain buddhahood in this very life and body (Holy Gate), or whether one focuses on an intimate karmic relationship with Amida Buddha and attaining birth (Pure Land Gate).
For instance, do I purify by reciting the Seven-Limb Prayer or the nembutsu? Do I recite the Nirvana Sutra or the Three Pure Land Sutras? When I cultivate virtue, what motivates me: the Two Accumulations or intimacy with Amida Buddha?
I am currently interested in both Zen and True Pure Land but I am not so familiar with Honen’s Pure Land with limited knowledge having obtained via lectures about Shinran’s doctrine incidentally. In Japan, viewing from general opinions about whole Pure Land Buddhism, Shinran is said to be generally a faithful successor to Honen but individual sects including Ippen’s Jishu seem fundamentally different among each other viewing from a specific aspect mirroring western style existentialism etc. As far as my personal opinion, while needless to say Pure Land appeals for salvation by Amidah Buddha, it seems to admit necessity of self-efforts to refine the nature of Buddha originally furnished with human. Such a notion seems prominent according to a master monk Bennei Yamazaki having represented Japanese Pure Land the 19 to the 20 century. In the meanwhile, both Shinran and Ippen pursued their more radical salvation by Amidah Buddha doctrine up to the utmost extent. Shinran abandoned even his status as a monk and became a non-monk concurrently non-secular person to behave just an ignorant people reciting the Nembutsu. Ippen abandoned not only all stuffs belonging to himself but also seemingly even his life itself to become a part of his Nembutsu by distributing cards written on Namu Amida Butsu and dancing here there everywhere with Pure Land oriented people as if like drug addicted people. In view of these aspects, Pure land as a whole is hard to define what it is. Especially, I cannot but feel familiar with Shinran as one of existentialist having lived about a millennium ago. Finally I must get back to an original point to think about what I shall do first again like on a loop-line. Must I seek something instead of neither by means of Zen, Pure Land nor existentialism?
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

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Parsifal wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:45 am I think it possible to learn an essence of Buddhism bit by bit as far as I can live but I do like to know immediately how I can practice Bodhicitta to come to learn how wonderful I can live with other people as a famous psychologist, Dr. Adler insisted. Even though it is very hard to learn, I am ready to do so as mentioned above. So I do like to know how I can live by dedicating myself to harmonizing myself with the others including all creatures and non-creatures.
This is difficult. But there are different entry points for different dispositions.

I think that Zen liturgy directly points to Bodhicitta - but most of the time it points to engaging in the wisdom aspect of Bodhicitta.

However Zen has the Three Pure Precepts (which are also found in the Southern School and in the Northern School outside of Zen):
Do not create Evil.
Practice Good.
Actualize Good For Others.
How do we practice good? How do we actualize good for others? We have to at least have the intention to not harm others. But it would be better to be more active and at least incline our behavior and minds to kindness, even if we can't act on it right now.

We have to remember that all living beings are going to get sick and die. Every single being faces impermanence directly and will suffer sickness and death.

As the Diamond Sutra says:
“As a lamp, a cataract, a star in space, an illusion, a dewdrop, a bubble, a dream, a cloud, a flash of lightning, view all created things like this.
(Red Pine's translation)

All beings with minds (sentient beings) experience some degree of suffering. Some of the suffering is great and some of the suffering is minor but most humans and animals living in or near a human environment face some degree of suffering daily (although esp. the humans tend to ignore it except in their emotional reactions, which they don't recognize as a reaction to suffering).

The truth of suffering is with us constantly but most people push it away and don't face it.

The other thing is that people are actually Buddhas but don't realize it. They can stop their suffering but don't know how to. Even people who know this is true but aren't realized Buddhas often don't or can't cut through their suffering. Most people die without every knowing that they could become Buddhas.

Contemplating impermanence, suffering and the fact that people are usually divorced from even a glimpse of their true nature (Buddhahood) can help us to raise compassion for all beings.

Then, the other common Zen chant that directly points to both merit (action) and also wisdom are the Four Bodhisattva Vows:
Living beings are limitless; I vow to deliver them.
Mental afflictions are inexhaustible; I vow to cut them off .
Dharma gates are incalculable; I vow to practice them.
The buddha way is unsurpassed; I vow to attain it.
My main Zen teacher's monastery teaches them like this:
Sentient beings are numberless; I vow to save them.
Desires are inexhaustible; I vow to put an end to them.
The Dharmas are boundless; I vow to master them.
The Buddha Way is unattainable; I vow to attain it.
How can we save or deliver sentient beings? We have to practice love, kindness and compassion. Whenever possible we have to be ready to help if we can. If we can't help others, then we should never harm them.

To me, reciting the Zen liturgy is one way to begin engaging with Bodhicitta.

Beyond that are the sutras/suttas and the teaching of Dogen, especially the Shobogenzo.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
passel
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Re: Refining a Meditative Practice

Post by passel »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:41 pm
Parsifal wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:25 am like Yoga which could make me mentally healthier. Is this kind of solution too simple?
Not too simple at all!! Make all the time in the world for simple mentally healthy practices. They're the "other ngondro."
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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