Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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Gnowm
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Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Gnowm »

I was thinking of making a habit of reciting sutras at home in Chinese, such as the Heart Sutra. I say this because reciting in English can often feel a bit clunky whereas when I've been to Dharma services held in Chinese it has felt more elegant. I question though whether there would be the same benefits since I don't know Chinese (or any other language traditionally used for Dharma texts). What do you think?
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by kirtu »

Gnowm wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:52 am I was thinking of making a habit of reciting sutras at home in Chinese, such as the Heart Sutra. I say this because reciting in English can often feel a bit clunky whereas when I've been to Dharma services held in Chinese it has felt more elegant. I question though whether there would be the same benefits since I don't know Chinese (or any other language traditionally used for Dharma texts). What do you think?
Many people who do that learn at least the gist of what they are reciting so it can be a positive approach. But some people don't for some reason even pick up the gist over time so for them this would not be a positive approach.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Queequeg »

kirtu wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:46 pm
Gnowm wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:52 am I was thinking of making a habit of reciting sutras at home in Chinese, such as the Heart Sutra. I say this because reciting in English can often feel a bit clunky whereas when I've been to Dharma services held in Chinese it has felt more elegant. I question though whether there would be the same benefits since I don't know Chinese (or any other language traditionally used for Dharma texts). What do you think?
Many people who do that learn at least the gist of what they are reciting so it can be a positive approach. But some people don't for some reason even pick up the gist over time so for them this would not be a positive approach.
I confirm this observation. Perhaps it is a resonance with unconscious memories. Perhaps it is the simple fact that the goal of Buddhist practice is naturally achieved through time tested practices; chanting practice has the effect of calming the mind and neutralizing obstacles. Whether this calming and clearing is done through a breath following, circumambulation, etc. this is not an effect that can be said to be dependent on understanding in the frontal cortex part of the mind. It is an effect that is deep and beyond words (literally) and thoughts. Release of attachments and purification are the means to insight that arises when obscurations are removed.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

You should know and understand the content of whatever it is you are chanting.

Two benefits from chanting a text or sutra in a foreign language are
1. You familiarize yourself a little bit with another language (always a good thing)
2. Particularly if you belong to a particular sect or lineage, if everyone uses the same language when chanting sutras, then if there are occasions when buddhists of that group, from different countries, get together, they can all practice together.

I think the Mahayana Sutras “flow” particularly well when chanted in Chinese because almost every syllable in the Chinese language(s) is also an individual word (even if it is also part of another word when combined with another syllable).
Sutra reciting, traditionally, is a bit choppy. For example, if one is keeping rhythm with a wooden (fish) block, each syllable is spoken along with one tap (beat) on the block.

In English, we have long words that are many syllables strung together, such as the word, “association” and if you were to rhythmically say
“a - so - ci - a - tion” it sounds like you are a robot. That has been my experience anyway, particularly since there is no variation in pitch.

To my ear, anyway, this is not the case in Chinese sutra chanting.

In Japanese, multi-syllable words (“busatsu”), as I recall, are quickly compressed into one ‘beat’. This adds a somewhat melodic quality to the chanting even if there is no variation in pitch.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:10 pm You should know and understand the content of whatever it is you are chanting.

Two benefits from chanting a text or sutra in a foreign language are
1. You familiarize yourself a little bit with another language (always a good thing)
2. Particularly if you belong to a particular sect or lineage, if everyone uses the same language when chanting sutras, then if there are occasions when buddhists of that group, from different countries, get together, they can all practice together.

I think the Mahayana Sutras “flow” particularly well when chanted in Chinese because almost every syllable in the Chinese language(s) is also an individual word (even if it is also part of another word when combined with another syllable).
Sutra reciting, traditionally, is a bit choppy. For example, if one is keeping rhythm with a wooden (fish) block, each syllable is spoken along with one tap (beat) on the block.

In English, we have long words that are many syllables strung together, such as the word, “association” and if you were to rhythmically say
“a - so - ci - a - tion” it sounds like you are a robot. That has been my experience anyway, particularly since there is no variation in pitch.

To my ear, anyway, this is not the case in Chinese sutra chanting.

In Japanese, multi-syllable words (“busatsu”), as I recall, are quickly compressed into one ‘beat’. This adds a somewhat melodic quality to the chanting even if there is no variation in pitch.
At least in Japanese reading of Chinese, a slight correction - each beat is generally one character. Many characters are a single syllable, but can be two. Transliterated Sanskrit words do not follow this and two characters may be a single beat with two or more syllables. For instance 舎利弗 sharihotsu ie. Sariputra. The first two characters sha ri are one beat. The third character, hotsu, is also one beat with two syllables. There are other exceptions that are not transliterations of Sanskrit. Liturgies will include notations for correct readings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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PVS, there are stories of mynah birds that recite verses gaining benefit and being reborn as adepts. They don't understand what they are chirping. I think these stories aim to emphasize the intrinsic benefit of chanting Buddhist teachings regardless of understanding. Also, there are dharani that actually make no sense at all but are said to bring benefit. I've often puzzled at these teachings and I think it comes down to the intrinsic effect of chanting on the body and mind. Of course, chanting "cocacola" could then said to have beneficial effects, and that's probably true to an extent, but when that practice is mastered, "cocacola" leads nowhere, whereas chanting the Heart Sutra, for instance, actually has instructive meaning leading to insight.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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Queequeg wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:36 pm At least in Japanese reading of Chinese, a slight correction - each beat is generally one character. Many characters are a single syllable, but can be two. Transliterated Sanskrit words do not follow this and two characters may be a single beat with two or more syllables. For instance 舎利弗 sharihotsu ie. Sariputra. The first two characters sha ri are one beat. The third character, hotsu, is also one beat with two syllables. There are other exceptions that are not transliterations of Sanskrit. Liturgies will include notations for correct readings.
As a follow up... I just realized, 舎利 (sha-ri, the transliteration of Sari of Sariputra) is sometimes recited in two beats. In chanting the Lotus Sutra, the pronunciation is two beats as described above. When reciting the Heart Sutra, 舎利子 sha-ri-shi, each character is one beat.

I guess, its complicated. Anyways, the rule I suppose is, follow the liturgy notations.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Personally, I think it is better to recite sutras in a language one understands. This way you get to learn a bit and it is still the speach of the Buddha.

So sutras despite being used "for magic purpouses" mostly are still extremely educational. With beautiful narratives that can teach quite a bit about dharma and how to lead life. Not to mention a mere inspiration.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Lethemyr »

AFAIK while educated Chinese people can understand the sutras in Classical Chinese pretty well, your average Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese Buddhist cannot. Yet, they still recite sutras in their respective languages' pronunciations of Classical Chinese instead of translations. So reciting sutras in a mostly unintelligible language is quite common in the wider East Asian Buddhist tradition. I'd say that both English and the Chinese you don't understand are fine and you should do whichever you prefer. Chanting sutras isn't really about understanding anyways, at least that's what I've been taught.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Soma999 »

You should understand what you are saying, at least the general meaning.

That being said, from my experience i can say chanting in one own language clearly has effects, the sutra shines its benefits in all langage.

Still, certain langage involve a specific rythmns, and generate an energy of its own. And more especially with ancient langage, chinese, sanskrit etc

I have made experiences of cymatics to see the structure generated by sounds. And certain sounds generate very specific geometry. So, sound is a technology. This is very scientific how certain sounds combines together can have a specific effects,

I suggest you read in your langage first, and when you are familiarised with the sutra, chant it in its original langage and feel how it is different.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by curtstein »

The majority of Buddhists who chant the Heart Sutra do so in Chinese - including Buddhists in Korea, Japan, and (I believe) Vietnam. And they all chant the same version of the Heart Sutra: Xuanzang's 260 character version that dates back about 1400 years. Of course there are are variations in how the characters are pronounced - but everyone who chants Xuanzang's Heart Sutra is chanting the same thing. If you go to a Japanese Buddhist center in the US they probably chant the "Japanese" version, just as a Korean Buddhist center will chant the "Korean" version - but they are really chanting Xuanzang's version with different pronunciations. Even if they are chanting an English translation - it is a translation (usually a pretty sketchy one in my opinion) of Xuanzang's Chinese. Note that modern day Chinese people do not chant a modern Chinese adaptation of Xuanzang's Heart Sutra. They chant it the same as it was originally written. (Although some do use the modern "simplified" characters, which is another issue.)

So if you chant the Heart Sutra in Chinese you are in very good company. And you can study Xuanzang's Chinese version to your heart's content, as Buddhists have been doing for 14 centuries.

Also, the idea that people "understand what they are chanting" just because it happens to be in a language they understand, is pretty questionable when it comes to the Heart Sutra. If anything the translations get in the way of having any real understanding what the Heart Sutra actually means, in my personal opinion.

Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhists do have a different (and somewhat longer) version. Also, the Japanese, for some reason, decided to add two extra characters (一切) - but these two characters do not change the meaning in any way.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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curtstein wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:11 pm The majority of Buddhists who chant the Heart Sutra do so in Chinese - including Buddhists in Korea, Japan, and (I believe) Vietnam. And they all chant the same version of the Heart Sutra: Xuanzang's 260 character version that dates back about 1400 years. Of course there are are variations in how the characters are pronounced - but everyone who chants Xuanzang's Heart Sutra is chanting the same thing. If you go to a Japanese Buddhist center in the US they probably chant the "Japanese" version, just as a Korean Buddhist center will chant the "Korean" version - but they are really chanting Xuanzang's version with different pronunciations. Even if they are chanting an English translation - it is a translation (usually a pretty sketchy one in my opinion) of Xuanzang's Chinese. Note that modern day Chinese people do not chant a modern Chinese adaptation of Xuanzang's Heart Sutra. They chant it the same as it was originally written. (Although some do use the modern "simplified" characters, which is another issue.)

So if you chant the Heart Sutra in Chinese you are in very good company. And you can study Xuanzang's Chinese version to your heart's content, as Buddhists have been doing for 14 centuries.

Also, the idea that people "understand what they are chanting" just because it happens to be in a language they understand, is pretty questionable when it comes to the Heart Sutra. If anything the translations get in the way of having any real understanding what the Heart Sutra actually means, in my personal opinion.

Tibetan/Vajrayana Buddhists do have a different (and somewhat longer) version. Also, the Japanese, for some reason, decided to add two extra characters (一切) - but these two characters do not change the meaning in any way.
Sure Heart Sutra is one matter.

However, there are plenty people reciting different ustra such as Sutra of Golden light which has like 70 A4 pages (if I remember correctly), or some other long sutras. I was mostly talking about these cases. It would be a waste of time to recite it in tibetan if I didnt understand tibetan. Not to mention how it would be a wasted opportunity of being exposed to some beautiful teachings.

Sutras are not just some magical merit creating texts that just have to be sang. Majority of them are here to educate us, encourage our practice and help us on the way. That simply cannot happen when chanted in a language one does not undestand.
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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by curtstein »

Sure Heart Sutra is one matter.

However, there are plenty people reciting different ustra such as Sutra of Golden light which has like 70 A4 pages (if I remember correctly), or some other long sutras. I was mostly talking about these cases. It would be a waste of time to recite it in tibetan if I didnt understand tibetan. Not to mention how it would be a wasted opportunity of being exposed to some beautiful teachings.

Sutras are not just some magical merit creating texts that just have to be sang. Majority of them are here to educate us, encourage our practice and help us on the way. That simply cannot happen when chanted in a language one does not undestand.
I definitely agree that reading and studying and reciting longer sutras in one's native language is also a very good practice. I recently had the chance to participate in a virtual group where we took turns reading the entire Ksitigarbha Sutra. It took about 3 hours. We used an English translation and it was a very powerful experience. We are planning to do it again soon, but this time with the Medicine Buddha Sutra (which is much shorter - about 1/3 the length of the Ksitigarbha), again using a translation.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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Lethemyr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:59 pm Chanting sutras isn't really about understanding anyways, at least that's what I've been taught.
That is the standard position from virtually every school except the Zen/Chan/Soen schools - sutra recitation has become relegated strictly to a merit making activity. This was not the case (at least not merit making alone) in the Zen/Chan/Soen schools and esp. not for the Heart Sutra (in the Zen tradition people read the sutras to develop insight and in the west merit making is often no even mentioned). Even in the Theravada, people have been encouraged to read sutras for their content as well and to get away from strictly merit making (ie. it is also to train one's mind and eventually lead to insight).

However in the other Mahayana schools there is also a move to get away from reading sutras just for merit. Many Chinese bhikkshus have urged people to read for content and even some Tibetan lamas have as well.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

kirtu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:28 am That is the standard position from virtually every school except the Zen/Chan/Soen schools - sutra recitation has become relegated strictly to a merit making activity.
It was once a common practice in Chinese monasteries for monks to basically sit at the table and quickly turn the pages one by one, just briefly looking at each page, not even reciting. That was regarded as a way to gain merit. Like being exposed to quick blasts of radiation.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:30 am
kirtu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:28 am That is the standard position from virtually every school except the Zen/Chan/Soen schools - sutra recitation has become relegated strictly to a merit making activity.
It was once a common practice in Chinese monasteries for monks to basically sit at the table and quickly turn the pages one by one, just briefly looking at each page, not even reciting. That was regarded as a way to gain merit. Like being exposed to quick blasts of radiation.
Yes I know so I spoke too glibbly.

However Zen/Chan/Soen in the west since the 80s has emphasized primarily reading and understanding sutras rather than just merit making.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:35 pm Sutras are not just some magical merit creating texts that just have to be sang. Majority of them are here to educate us, encourage our practice and help us on the way. That simply cannot happen when chanted in a language one does not undestand.
:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Ayu »

On the other hand I can resonate well with the idea of reciting not in one's mother tongue.

The own language carries not only well understanding but there could be some disadvantages as well.
E. g. my unconscious monkeymind projects undesired connotations and even likes to tweak meanings by confusing letters. It loves to make "furchtbar" (horrible) from "fruchtbar" (fruitful). And the sound of my mother tongue always reads in a little tone of accusation or command. It is seldomly soft.

These disadvantages I can circumvent by reciting in another language which is not that close to my ordinary day-to-day life. If the meaning of the text is not too complicated, it's much better to visualize that meaning and recite in an unknown language.

But long and meaningful scripts I rather recite silently in my language. It's better to understand the exact meaning then.
I then just change those words I always stumble upon (fruitful to wholesome).
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

:good: Ayu, I’m on the the same page with those observations.

For our group sadhana practice we sing in Tibetan, recite In English, and of course mantra in Sanskrit. On my own I tend towards much simpler practice anyway so it’s less an issue, usually a little English and singing mantra.

When we do the Heart Sutra as a group it’s mostly English with the Tibetan practitioners kind of quietly chanting it in Tibetan…it used to bother me because the cadence etc. is off but I’ve grown to like kind of soft cacophony it creates.

I think part of this is how much working with a given melody or melodic chanting puts one into a meditative state. If it does not, I might as well recite it in English for the precise meaning…especially if it’s somewhat new to me.

If I understand the content well enough to visualize or intuitively grasp it, then the melody is in some way an “activation” of my contemplation of the text, and is pretty indispensable.

The few times I have heard a version of English melodic singing of Buddhist texts was uh…underwhelming to me, so that’s off the table for now.

Another thing that is useful about a “mixed” approach is that it encourages study of the text and a little bit of etymology study, IME this is a fairly big deal in terms of long term Dharma learning.

As many of us will never formally learn Tibetan, Chinese, etc. it is extremely useful to not just understand a text in terms of given English translations, but also to investigate the deeper meaning of Dharma terms in languages that are often capable of more precise meaning with them than English is.

Studying/understanding Dharma terms themselves deepens the practice of any text and in my experience is made stronger by understanding precise meanings that you can’t always find in English translation. Eventually we can end up with a much deeper understanding of vital terms like “Buddha” for instance, whereas if we simply went with “awakened one” etc. we would have a narrower view.

The other related advantage of a multi-language approach is that often it brings an opportunity to directly see how we are conditioned by language.
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Re: Reciting Sutras in Not Spoken Languages

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 3:57 pm When we do the Heart Sutra as a group it’s mostly English with the Tibetan practitioners kind of quietly chanting it in Tibetan…it used to bother me because the cadence etc. is off but I’ve grown to like kind of soft cacophony it creates.
The following *IS NOT* the best English chant of the Heart Sutra that I have heard but it's not bad (pretty good actually)

“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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