The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

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gelukman
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The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by gelukman »

Lama Chris Wilkinson is giving the Lung Transmission of the Early Tantras in English, live for the first time to the English speaking world

https://mindfulnessmeditationcenters.co ... nsmissions


Started last week and it will continue probably two years.
Chris reads the texts very calmly. Personally loving this very much.
gelukman
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by gelukman »

Scholarships are available. You dont need to pay anything. I am attending my self with scholarship. But I will
probably pay later due to gratitude and wonderful opportunity to learn dharma.
You are able to transmit dzogchen tantras your self after you have received the transmission.
Precious opportunity to hear it directly from the translator. The transmission will still continue
for long time.
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Lingpupa
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Lingpupa »

gelukman wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:27 pm
You are able to transmit dzogchen tantras your self after you have received the transmission.
Isn't there some old-fashioned thing about studying and practising them first somewhere in the mix?
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
krodha
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by krodha »

gelukman wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:27 pm You are able to transmit dzogchen tantras your self after you have received the transmission.
Oh boy.
gelukman
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by gelukman »

Lingpupa wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:12 pm
gelukman wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:27 pm
You are able to transmit dzogchen tantras your self after you have received the transmission.
Isn't there some old-fashioned thing about studying and practising them first somewhere in the mix?
I was referring to the textual transmission
jamesrigzin
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by jamesrigzin »

I think it is incorrect to say that one can offer textual transmission after receiving it from this person.

Did Chris Wilkinson say that?
Last edited by jamesrigzin on Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterC
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by PeterC »

gelukman wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:25 am
Lingpupa wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 6:12 pm
gelukman wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 12:27 pm
You are able to transmit dzogchen tantras your self after you have received the transmission.
Isn't there some old-fashioned thing about studying and practising them first somewhere in the mix?
I was referring to the textual transmission
Well, if you received a lung, you can give that lung. Whether you *should* be giving lungs of texts is another question entirely. In this case the answer would be almost certainly no.
gelukman
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by gelukman »

jamesrigzin wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 am I think it is incorrect to say that one can offer textual transmission after receiving it from this person.

Did Chris Wilkinson say that?
Yes, I think I will agree with him on this point.

I am of course willing to listen to the "nay sayers" if they provide some
better arguments like "certainly no".
Malcolm
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Malcolm »

gelukman wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:07 pm
jamesrigzin wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:53 am I think it is incorrect to say that one can offer textual transmission after receiving it from this person.

Did Chris Wilkinson say that?
Yes, I think I will agree with him on this point.

I am of course willing to listen to the "nay sayers" if they provide some
better arguments like "certainly no".
There are three kinds of gurus: gurus who give empowerments, gurus who give lungs, and gurus who give upadeshas. The best of course is the guru who gives all three. But to give a lung of a tantra means that people to whom one is giving the lung are becoming one's disciples. Thus it is not really a samaya-free transmission.

This means that people need to have empowerment, etc., before they can read said texts, even if they have received the lung. Otherwise, there is the root downfall of revealing secrets to the unripened. These are the kinds of things one has to take into consideration before one begins to act as a guide for others by giving them lungs, especially the seventeen tantras, which list severe punishments for promulgating them to unqualified recipients. Simply put, people should not read these texts if they are not qualified to do so.

Finally, frankly, most people in the west do not have a good understanding of this literature. People who do not have a good understanding of this literature and do not know Tibetan have no business givings lungs of translations of these texts, because they cannot correct errors when they find them. We must not assume that any translations of Dzogchen texts are perfect, and they all need to be explained point by point.
gelukman
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by gelukman »

Thanks Malcolm. even you give transmission online.
And there are several others who give transmissions online.
Even dalai lama gives transmission online.
And one should remember this is not an empowerment?
Just a text transmission aka lung.
Malcolm
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Malcolm »

gelukman wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:40 pm And one should remember this is not an empowerment?
Just a text transmission aka lung.
Lungs of tantras carry samaya. That's why, for example, I know the background of every person who receives a lung of a Dzgchen text from me. It is not a free for all. I know who they received empowerment from, when they received it, etc.
gelukman
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by gelukman »

Thanks Malcolm

Do you have any sources to text transmissions or lungs carry samaya?
Preferably english I would be interested to read more.
Malcolm
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Malcolm »

gelukman wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:50 pm Thanks Malcolm

Do you have any sources to text transmissions or lungs carry samaya?
Preferably english I would be interested to read more.
It is axiomatic. If you give lungs of tantric texts, they carry samaya. Otherwise, one is revealing secrets to the unripened. It is the seventh root downfall, of the 14 root downfalls.

And for Dzogchen specifically, Longchenpa writes in the Lama Yangthig's Ocean of Liberation:

"The appropriate secrets are the commitments substances of mantra; the five meats, the five nectars, the vajra and bell, skulls, kīlas, etc., pictures of the forms of mandalas of inner deitieis, etc., because the mentalities of lower vehicles have no room, if such articles are shown to the less fortunate, they may become hostile; thus they should be concealed.

The Crystal Mountain Tantra:

If a holder of mantra endeavors in yoga,
the māras become interested,
endeavoring to cause breaks in commitments,
since that it is so, understand this well.


It is stated in a thousand places that one needs to be careful in how Dzogchen teachings are promulgated. We cannot do anything about the samaya of other people, but we can guard our own samaya.
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Jules 09
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Jules 09 »

Samaya in Dzogchen is to remain in that which was pointed out, no?
And if one can't do that, then the samayas of Tantra come into play.

- Anyone disagree? :smile:
Last edited by Jules 09 on Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Malcolm »

Jules 09 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:52 pm Samaya in Dzogchen is to remain in that which was pointed out, no?
And if one can't do that, then the samayas of Tantra come into play.

- Anyone disagree? :smile:
VImalamitra disagrees, Buddhahood in This Life:

Further, the result of buddhahood arises without impediment from the conjunction of a qualified guru, a disciple who possesses samaya, and the blessings of the empowerment. For example, like grain ripening after a seed is planted in fertile soil, well-tended with water, and so on, the result ripens based on not damaging samaya after the empowerment has been conferred upon one’s pure continuum.

Longchenpa disagrees, in the Lama Yangthig:

Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great completion being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments.

The 27 samayas are the samayas of Dzogchen, as well as the five things to accept, etc. These samayas are mentioned in the Self-arisen VIdyā tantra, etc. The root and branch samayas, and so on, are stated in the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra:

Though the different explanations of the samayas that
support the empowerment
cannot be covered by speech,
in brief, [the vows of] body, speech, and mind
are to be applied to the yogi’s body, voice, and mind.
The object is the guru and vajra siblings.
The divisions of the field of protection
are the vows of body, voice, and mind,
and maintaining the place of the secret vajra.


Of course there are four unbreakable samayas related to the basis, but they are unbreakable. The others are breakable, and have the following consequences. The Self-Arisen Vidyā states:

You must maintain the samaya vows.
Keep in mind the concise explanation
of the samayas, said to number one hundred thousand.
Further, the brief explanation includes
the samayas of the view to be realized,
the samayas of continuous conduct,
the samayas of general practice,
the common general samayas,
the samayas of body, speech, and mind,
the secondary samayas,

The master and disciple who possess the meaning
abide in equipoise in utter purity,
and likewise, they are endowed with samaya.
If samaya is damaged, both master and disciple will be
burned.



So who can say that the samayas are not critical in Dzogchen teachings?
krodha
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by krodha »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:08 amSo who can say that the samayas are not critical in Dzogchen teachings?
The great chigcharwa, Jules who has evidently exhausted dharmatā.
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:08 am
Jules 09 wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:52 pm Samaya in Dzogchen is to remain in that which was pointed out, no?
And if one can't do that, then the samayas of Tantra come into play.

- Anyone disagree? :smile:
VImalamitra disagrees, Buddhahood in This Life:

Further, the result of buddhahood arises without impediment from the conjunction of a qualified guru, a disciple who possesses samaya, and the blessings of the empowerment. For example, like grain ripening after a seed is planted in fertile soil, well-tended with water, and so on, the result ripens based on not damaging samaya after the empowerment has been conferred upon one’s pure continuum.

Longchenpa disagrees, in the Lama Yangthig:

Now then, although there is nothing to damage or transgress, the natural great completion being beyond a boundary to protect, it is necessary for yogins on the path of practice to abide in commitments.

The 27 samayas are the samayas of Dzogchen, as well as the five things to accept, etc. These samayas are mentioned in the Self-arisen VIdyā tantra, etc. The root and branch samayas, and so on, are stated in the Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra:

Though the different explanations of the samayas that
support the empowerment
cannot be covered by speech,
in brief, [the vows of] body, speech, and mind
are to be applied to the yogi’s body, voice, and mind.
The object is the guru and vajra siblings.
The divisions of the field of protection
are the vows of body, voice, and mind,
and maintaining the place of the secret vajra.


Of course there are four unbreakable samayas related to the basis, but they are unbreakable. The others are breakable, and have the following consequences. The Self-Arisen Vidyā states:

You must maintain the samaya vows.
Keep in mind the concise explanation
of the samayas, said to number one hundred thousand.
Further, the brief explanation includes
the samayas of the view to be realized,
the samayas of continuous conduct,
the samayas of general practice,
the common general samayas,
the samayas of body, speech, and mind,
the secondary samayas,

The master and disciple who possess the meaning
abide in equipoise in utter purity,
and likewise, they are endowed with samaya.
If samaya is damaged, both master and disciple will be
burned.



So who can say that the samayas are not critical in Dzogchen teachings?
Great posts Acharya
oldbob
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Re: The Transmission of the Dzogchen Great Perfection Tantras with Chris Wilkinson

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... na#p438016

If someone reaches direct and immediate enlightenment through a "Hearing" transmission, is that a lesser enlightenment than someone who reaches enlightenment through years and years of study and practice, and then can finely slice (smash) the views posted by new folks on DW, (including views as to what is Samaya)?

Maybe there needs to be a special class of learned Gyalpos, and their followers, whose job it is to make others suffer who do not hold their own views. If this is kindness - or not - maybe only an enlightened Master can tell.

So from a Dzogchen point of view, everything is perfect just as it is and one taste is not two taste.

Going back to the OPs announcement, how many will achieve enlightenment just by listening to the reading transmission by Lama Chris Wilkinson? If only one person "gets it" through the "hearing" transmission, isn't it a wonderful event that should be applauded by all?

Maybe only a realized Master can say who is enlightened and who can give transmission.

So what to do in the face of political Dharma?

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 12#p139512

and so - this is why we practice - to go beyond the effects of good and bad circumstances - but we have no name for it, and could not if we tried.

So Lord Buddha taught 84,000 different Teachings so that there would be something for everyone.

The dimension of a frog at the bottom of a well is different from that of an eagle flying overhead and these two views are perfect "as they are".

With very best wishes for frogs, eagles and everyone else,

:heart:
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