I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Mdg137
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I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Mdg137 »

Hello everyone.

Let me start by saying that I am from the west, and as such am approaching the Dharma from that perspective. I initially came to the Pure Land Dharma as a result of learning that it is the most practiced form of Buddhism in East Asia. At first, I admittedly was skeptical, because as a westerner, I had a lot of notions about what Buddhism should look like, and Pure Land Doctrine did not look like that at all, especially in Japan. However, upon studying more, I realized that I was wrong in my skepticism, and that my initial foray into Buddhism was ego-driven to some degree.

What I know for sure is this. When I recite Amida's name, I feel his presence within myself. Doing so fervently encourages my wandering thoughts to become pure, while still wandering. I feel like its a great way to stave off the three poisons from contributing to harmful actions in my life. It is arguably more powerful in some ways than meditation practice, which yields slow results in comparison. I can really only engage in meditation at home, and it is somewhat difficult to me to bring that concentration and mindfulness with me when I am out of my chair. But if I find myself in the grip of passions in everyday life, I can in that moment recite the name to help cool them. I also relate to the attitude of humility taken by figures like Honen, Shinran, and Ippen.

In addition, I feel like, if I take the mind-only approach, that Pure Land Practice is extremely powerful, because it enables one to enter a pure mind-state in the here-and-now. But I also know that this view is not universally agreed upon.

I guess, if I had to ask a series of questions, they would be these:

Is it possible to get to enlightenment (or at least, some level of transcendent realization, not necessarily full Buddhahood) through recitation of Amida's name and through other power, in the here-and-now? I have heard that Mahasthamaprapta achieved this, but I can't compare myself to him obviously.

When Pure Land Masters speak of "birth", do they mean birth in the common sense (I.E., your physical body dies, and you are reborn in a lotus in an external Western Pure Land), or do they mean birth in a more absolute sense (I.E., causal birth, from one moment to the next, "birth in one thought-moment" as Ippen said)?

Why do the Japanese Masters seem to advocate exclusive recitation, rather than mixing practices? While I would acknowledge the efficacy of Pure Land Rebirth for the purpose of supreme unsurpassed enlightenment. Doctrines like the Four Noble Truths, and practices like samatha meditation can still yield clarity of mind in this lifetime, and therefore reduce suffering, even if they don't uproot the causes of it. Why would one not want to do both?

Thank you for your time and patience with my ignorance on these subjects.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Astus »

Mdg137 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:50 pmIs it possible to get to enlightenment (or at least, some level of transcendent realization, not necessarily full Buddhahood) through recitation of Amida's name and through other power, in the here-and-now?
Recitation in and of itself can be a form of calming (samatha) practice. A calm state of mind is conducive to wisdom, but for insight one needs to engage in some form of contemplation. Then based on the insight there can be awakening of various levels.
When Pure Land Masters speak of "birth", do they mean birth in the common sense (I.E., your physical body dies, and you are reborn in a lotus in an external Western Pure Land), or do they mean birth in a more absolute sense (I.E., causal birth, from one moment to the next, "birth in one thought-moment" as Ippen said)?
Generally it is birth in the Pure Land after one has died. In an absolute sense there is no birth.
Why do the Japanese Masters seem to advocate exclusive recitation, rather than mixing practices?
Honen initiated the concept of focusing solely on recitation as the most effective method, so his followers kept up this approach. However, as long as there is no conflict with nenbutsu one may engage in other practices. However, if you prefer a more inclusive approach you might want to look at Chinese Pure Land teachings.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

When I started with Nembutsu in 2008 I went through the different vows 19-20-18 in that order over a 6 year period

Anyway reading your post what’s obvious to me is you have started with a strong connection
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Mdg137 »

Astus wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:03 pm
Mdg137 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:50 pmIs it possible to get to enlightenment (or at least, some level of transcendent realization, not necessarily full Buddhahood) through recitation of Amida's name and through other power, in the here-and-now?
Recitation in and of itself can be a form of calming (samatha) practice. A calm state of mind is conducive to wisdom, but for insight one needs to engage in some form of contemplation. Then based on the insight there can be awakening of various levels.
When Pure Land Masters speak of "birth", do they mean birth in the common sense (I.E., your physical body dies, and you are reborn in a lotus in an external Western Pure Land), or do they mean birth in a more absolute sense (I.E., causal birth, from one moment to the next, "birth in one thought-moment" as Ippen said)?
Generally it is birth in the Pure Land after one has died. In an absolute sense there is no birth.
Why do the Japanese Masters seem to advocate exclusive recitation, rather than mixing practices?
Honen initiated the concept of focusing solely on recitation as the most effective method, so his followers kept up this approach. However, as long as there is no conflict with nenbutsu one may engage in other practices. However, if you prefer a more inclusive approach you might want to look at Chinese Pure Land teachings.
Thank you for your straightforward and concise answers to these questions. I have explored the Chinese Pure Land Traditions somewhat, but I feel more drawn to the Japanese Traditions. I don't know why or how, but it is what it is. I think I just need to throw myself into this exploration fully to see where it leads. I thank you for clarifying these questions, as it will help my journey greatly.
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:29 pm When I started with Nembutsu in 2008 I went through the different vows 19-20-18 in that order over a 6 year period

Anyway reading your post what’s obvious to me is you have started with a strong connection
It brings me joy to hear this connection affirmed. Also, that your practice has changed over time, as this indicates that I can also practice vigorously while keeping my mind open to other traditions and modes of practice. If I may ask, do you still do nembutsu practice, or have you moved from 18th vow practice to something else or another tradition?
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by curtstein »

This might sound a little simplistic, but many great teachers have taught that so long as one raises the question "who is reciting Amida's name?", then this practice can lead to "enlightenment (or at least, some level of transcendent realization, not necessarily full Buddhahood)".
The gong’an exercise of Buddha recitation uses the invocation of Amituofo as a huatou. At the very moment the name is uttered, it must be the focal point in respect to which all doubts and delusions are laid aside. At the same time you ask “Who is this person reciting Amitābha’s name?” When you rely steadily on the huatou, all illusions and confused thoughts will be instantly broken down the way knotted threads are cut. When there is no longer any place for them to reappear, it is all like the shining sun in the sky. When illusion does not arise and when delusion disappears, the mind is all calm and transparent.

Hanshan Deqing (1546-1623) as quoted in Yü, Chün-fang. “The Renewal of Buddhism in China” (The Sheng Yen Series in Chinese Buddhist Studies) . Fortieth Anniversary Edition, 2020, Columbia University Press.
https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-renew ... 0231198530
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Mdg137 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:26 pm
It brings me joy to hear this connection affirmed. Also, that your practice has changed over time, as this indicates that I can also practice vigorously while keeping my mind open to other traditions and modes of practice. If I may ask, do you still do nembutsu practice, or have you moved from 18th vow practice to something else or another tradition?
Still say Amitabha
Mdg137
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Mdg137 »

curtstein wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:48 pm This might sound a little simplistic, but many great teachers have taught that so long as one raises the question "who is reciting Amida's name?", then this practice can lead to "enlightenment (or at least, some level of transcendent realization, not necessarily full Buddhahood)".
The gong’an exercise of Buddha recitation uses the invocation of Amituofo as a huatou. At the very moment the name is uttered, it must be the focal point in respect to which all doubts and delusions are laid aside. At the same time you ask “Who is this person reciting Amitābha’s name?” When you rely steadily on the huatou, all illusions and confused thoughts will be instantly broken down the way knotted threads are cut. When there is no longer any place for them to reappear, it is all like the shining sun in the sky. When illusion does not arise and when delusion disappears, the mind is all calm and transparent.

Hanshan Deqing (1546-1623) as quoted in Yü, Chün-fang. “The Renewal of Buddhism in China” (The Sheng Yen Series in Chinese Buddhist Studies) . Fortieth Anniversary Edition, 2020, Columbia University Press.
https://cup.columbia.edu/book/the-renew ... 0231198530
Thank you for this suggestion and book recommendation! I have touched on this huatou before, and found it to be very firey, like a small explosion of realization was lit within me. I do still have some questions about the suitability of huatou for someone who is new like me, but I will keep this idea in mind for when the time is right.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Shinjin »

According to Shinran mixing Nembutsu with other buddhist practices will result in birth in the borderland where you will have to remain for 500 years before being allowed in the Pure Land. On the other hand exclusive focus on the Nembutsu, the 18th Vow and abandonment of self powered buddhist practices (such as chan meditation and precepts) will result in birth in the heart of the Pure Land where Buddhahood is said to occur rapidly.

Hopefuly Zhen Li can chime in as well. He will be able to give you a more detailed response.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Shinjin wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:18 pm According to Shinran mixing Nembutsu with other buddhist practices will result in birth in the borderland where you will have to remain for 500 years before being allowed in the Pure Land. On the other hand exclusive focus on the Nembutsu, the 18th Vow and abandonment of self powered buddhist practices (such as chan meditation and precepts) will result in birth in the heart of the Pure Land where Buddhahood is said to occur rapidly.

Hopefuly Zhen Li can chime in as well. He will be able to give you a more detailed response.
Not everyone is ready for the 18th Vow all of the time, that’s why there’s the other Vows like the 19th and 20th which is the working of Great Compassion Vow Power
:sage:
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Shinjin »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:00 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:18 pm According to Shinran mixing Nembutsu with other buddhist practices will result in birth in the borderland where you will have to remain for 500 years before being allowed in the Pure Land. On the other hand exclusive focus on the Nembutsu, the 18th Vow and abandonment of self powered buddhist practices (such as chan meditation and precepts) will result in birth in the heart of the Pure Land where Buddhahood is said to occur rapidly.

Hopefuly Zhen Li can chime in as well. He will be able to give you a more detailed response.
Not everyone is ready for the 18th Vow all of the time, that’s why there’s the other Vows like the 19th and 20th which is the working of Great Compassion Vow Power
:sage:
Indeed. Shinran's teachings aren't easy to grasp for many western converts to Buddhism. 19th and 20th vows are fantastic too.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Shinjin wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:05 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:00 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:18 pm According to Shinran mixing Nembutsu with other buddhist practices will result in birth in the borderland where you will have to remain for 500 years before being allowed in the Pure Land. On the other hand exclusive focus on the Nembutsu, the 18th Vow and abandonment of self powered buddhist practices (such as chan meditation and precepts) will result in birth in the heart of the Pure Land where Buddhahood is said to occur rapidly.

Hopefuly Zhen Li can chime in as well. He will be able to give you a more detailed response.
Not everyone is ready for the 18th Vow all of the time, that’s why there’s the other Vows like the 19th and 20th which is the working of Great Compassion Vow Power
:sage:
Indeed. Shinran's teachings aren't easy to grasp for many western converts to Buddhism. 19th and 20th vows are fantastic too.
Yes I think you need a Sangha and a Teacher to really live it
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Shinjin »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:07 pm
Shinjin wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:05 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:00 pm

Not everyone is ready for the 18th Vow all of the time, that’s why there’s the other Vows like the 19th and 20th which is the working of Great Compassion Vow Power
:sage:
Indeed. Shinran's teachings aren't easy to grasp for many western converts to Buddhism. 19th and 20th vows are fantastic too.
Yes I think you need a Sangha and a Teacher to really live it
All you need to do is read and understand the Pure Land sutras and writings of Shinran and Rennyo. A well versed teacher is very helpful too.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Then on the other hand Shinran said
Just recite the name so as to be born in the Pure Land
So might as well open the dharma door wide for everyone as is the intent of the Vow

:quoteunquote:
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Shinjin »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:59 pm Then on the other hand Shinran said
Just recite the name so as to be born in the Pure Land
So might as well open the dharma door wide for everyone as is the intent of the Vow

:quoteunquote:
The deep listening aspect is important to clarify doubts and become established in faith.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Shinjin wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:38 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:59 pm Then on the other hand Shinran said
Just recite the name so as to be born in the Pure Land
So might as well open the dharma door wide for everyone as is the intent of the Vow

:quoteunquote:
The deep listening aspect is important to clarify doubts and become established in faith.
And what about how it relates to your karmic existence when the shit really hits the fan

More Ice more Water
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Mdg137 »

I wanted to come back and thank you all for your responses to this post. Considering what you have said about both Shinran's view and the different paths to birth based on the vows, I re-read vows 18, 19, and 20. In re-reading, I do feel more affinity with a combination of the 18th and 19th vows. The 18th because I believe in name recitation as cause for birth, as well as a fruitful practice overall, and the 19th because I still wish to try to do meritorious deeds in the present, and I cannot deny the efficacy of meditative practices, as well as the effect of meritorious deeds in the present life. Their fruits are slow, but nevertheless I feel the need to strive for them. One thing that tips me off to this fact is that the Masters Honen and Shinran both earnestly tried other practices before turning wholly to the Nembutsu. And if I turn to the Nembutsu now, I will forever ask the question of what if perhaps I could have walked a different path, giving fruits in this lifetime. Nevertheless, I still aspire for birth in the Pure Land, and practicing both vows allows me to honor feeling of connectedness to Amitabha, while also giving earnest effort to meditation and other practices as well. If this mixed view of practice lands me in a borderland for 500 years, at least, in that borderland, my enlightenment is still assured. Better to be born there than go another round in Samsara. At least in that case, I will still inevitably become a Bodhisattva under Amitabha's guidance and help to save sentient beings.

I suspect I should give the Chinese Pure Land traditions a more deep examination based on this. Thank you for taking the time to provide me with this information to help guide me on the path. I hope in time, I become knowledgeable enough that I can provide information to do the same for others.

Namu Amida Butsu, Namo Amituofo
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Shaku Kenshin »

From what you wrote it sounds as if Tendai Pure Land teachings might also be a good fit.
Unfortunately, there is not that much information out there if you don't read Japanese and/or classical Chinese, so you would have to find a teacher.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

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Shaku Kenshin wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:01 pm From what you wrote it sounds as if Tendai Pure Land teachings might also be a good fit.
Unfortunately, there is not that much information out there if you don't read Japanese and/or classical Chinese, so you would have to find a teacher.
That's true but Tendai has been opening up over the past 20 or so years. It seems well established now on the US East Coast (or at least in NY and the DC-NoVa area). Tendai in Japan might be more of a challenge but it can probably be done (after all, a member here just retired from teaching in Shingon and when he started there were definitely far fewer accessible resources for foreigners).
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Shinjin »

fo guang shan if hybrid practice is what you're into. they have lots of locations in the usa.
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Re: I have some confusion regarding this tradition, and have questions.

Post by Mdg137 »

Appreciate the suggestions!

I've actually found both FGS and a Tendai organization in my state, but they are both quite far. I will try to get there ASAP. Up till this point, I have been practicing and learning from the local Dharma Drum organization, which has also been enjoyable. From Master Sheng Yen's talks, I get the impression that birth specifically in the Western Pure Land is not as emphasized, as he has said that Pure Land practice need not be specifically for that Pure Land. I also know that DD is Chan Buddhism, which tends to take a more mind-only approach to these things (the talks I have attended have heavily focused on a) that the world we live in is a product of the mind and b) Buddhanature), and while I do believe in that aspect (the idea that "a pure mind is a pure land"), I also believe in the literal aspect where the Western Pure Land is a real place one goes to after one dies. In view of emptiness, both views don't seem to contradict each other to me, so it might be nice to explore schools which may take a more literal approach to this Dharma.
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