How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

[Johnny Dangerous]

Yes, I’d say that’s an accurate take on “the basics” of training the mind.

[Konstantin Sol]

It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...

[Johnny Dangerous]

It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.

If we are not present enough to discover when are on autopilot- to actually notice it-, we just continue on autopilot. It’s a common experience which you can test yourself, driving is a good way to test how present we can be because it so easily becomes an automatic activity where the mind begins wandering and is not present.

Have you ever tried Buddhist meditation? I ask because a lot of these questions are easily answerable via experience, rather than theory.

[Konstantin Sol]

yes, I was practicing one-pointed meditation for several months

Well, perhaps it is easier to answer, but the respected Dalai Lama wrote that one cannot practice meditation until the path of morality has been traversed. In general, meditation is serious. it has also been written that in Buddhism one must first study the dhamma, think and ask questions until there is confidence in the teaching.

here is the whole passage:

Guarding the doors of the senses

One way to avoid hurting yourself and keep your vows is to guard your own sense doors and stay in awareness. Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sense objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created.

Therefore, one must be careful to create good and not evil kamma, which we might later regret. For example, when someone says unpleasant words to us, an unpleasant feeling immediately arises. If we are mindful, then we know that feeling irritated can lead to something harmful. So we immediately discard our anger, and if we cannot do this, then we simply leave. Sight is another sense door through which it is easy to accumulate negative kamma. For example, the sight of a beautiful girl can develop a flame of lust in a married man. If he is mindful, he will remember his responsibility and refrain from doing what he later regrets. Thus, we must constantly be attentive to our feelings and not let them drag us along.

[Johnny Dangerous]

yes, I was practicing one-pointed meditation for several months

Well, perhaps it is easier to answer, but the respected Dalai Lama wrote that one cannot practice meditation until the path of morality has been traversed. In general, meditation is serious. it has also been written that in Buddhism one must first study the dhamma, think and ask questions until there is confidence in the teaching.

here is the whole passage:

Guarding the doors of the senses

One way to avoid hurting yourself and keep your vows is to guard your own sense doors and stay in awareness. Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sense objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created.

Therefore, one must be careful to create good and not evil kamma, which we might later regret. For example, when someone says unpleasant words to us, an unpleasant feeling immediately arises. If we are mindful, then we know that feeling irritated can lead to something harmful. So we immediately discard our anger, and if we cannot do this, then we simply leave. Sight is another sense door through which it is easy to accumulate negative kamma. For example, the sight of a beautiful girl can develop a flame of lust in a married man. If he is mindful, he will remember his responsibility and refrain from doing what he later regrets. Thus, we must constantly be attentive to our feelings and not let them drag us along.

This is true, but unless one is really struggling with study and contemplation, there is no real reason to not begin putting study into action. HHDL would definitely agree here, if he did not he would give the public teachings he does.

If you have already practiced meditation though, it’s worth considering what you can verify through your own experience of when you are fully aware, and when you are not.

Theory and study is one thing, but where the question boils down to “how often can we be present and full aware” the best answer is to try it and see.

[Konstantin Sol]

I understand, but for now I'd rather study the dhamma and practice morality.
In my opinion, Buddhism is incredibly difficult)

I will continue.

Accordingly, with the help of choice, we have the opportunity to regulate the performance of good and bad deeds.
Because the mind has the ability consciously to choose
thoughts and reactions to thoughts, and there is our ability to decide our own destiny, that is, to create or remove karma. Otherwise, there would be no possibility of liberation. Therefore, conditioning is neither determinism nor fatalism. But there is no absolute freedom either.
Right?

[PadmaVonSamba]

Theory and study is one thing, but where the question boils down to “how often can we be present and full aware” the best answer is to try it and see.

I think this is really important. I see so many posts where people are just talking hypothetically when not only is it easy to find out (what could be easier than watching one’s breath?), but the hesitancy and delay sort of develops it’s own solid barrier, like the mortar in a brick wall hardening. This really just creates more self-grasping which I think actually has the effect of making constant speculation about a teaching (without trying it out) counter-productive. In a sense, harmful from a Buddhist perspective.
Most people familiar with my comments are aware that I’m not shy about throwing doubt on things. So, I’m not against constant questioning per se, as long as one is willing to test the teachings out for oneself, which is already what the Buddha instructed.

[Konstantin Sol]

I understand, but for now I'd rather study the dhamma and practice morality.
In my opinion, Buddhism is incredibly difficult)

I will continue.

Accordingly, with the help of choice, we have the opportunity to regulate the performance of good and bad deeds.
Because the mind has the ability consciously to choose
thoughts and reactions to thoughts, and there is our ability to decide our own destiny, that is, to create or remove karma. Otherwise, there would be no possibility of liberation. Therefore, conditioning is neither determinism nor fatalism. But there is no absolute freedom either.
Right?

I understand. But Buddhism is so unusual and raises so many questions that I can't meditate yet. I practice morality and look at my thoughts, experience. I hope you understand me. Looks like it's time to finish.
Please answer the question in the attachment and I hope that's all.

[Kim O'Hara]

Attachment?


Kim

[Konstantin Sol]

My question is:

Accordingly, with the help of choice, we have the opportunity to regulate the performance of good and bad deeds.
Because the mind has the ability consciously to choose
thoughts and reactions to thoughts, and there is our ability to decide our own destiny, that is, to create or remove karma. Otherwise, there would be no possibility of liberation. Therefore, conditioning is neither determinism nor fatalism. But there is no absolute freedom either.
Right?

K. Sri Dhammananda, "What Buddhists Believe"
"...Do it yourself
Self-dependence plays an important role in all aspects of our life. Knowing that no external forces, no faith and no rituals can us save, the Buddhist understands the need to rely on one's own efforts. By relying on ourselves, we develop confidence. We are aware that all themselves. Responsibility for both the present life and the future rests entirely with us. Everyone must strive for salvation on their own. One must follow the rules, directions or advice of the Buddha (who gives emancipation orders) by controlling or suppressing greed, hatred and ignorance. Buddhism is not a religion in which people can to obtain salvation by mere prayers or petitions. For achievement perfection, they should strive hard by controlling the mind to eradicate their selfish desires and feelings. According to the Buddha, people are the creators of their own destiny. They have no one to blame for her, because they alone are responsible for their own lives. They create their own life
doing good or harm to oneself. "

[Konstantin Sol]

It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.

I don't quite understand what you are talking about. The translator cannot connect the words.
What does it mean to "be aware of every decision by willpower?"

In general, you wanted to say that if we are conscious, we can make a strong-willed decision, make a conscious choice.
If we are not aware, then the decision will be "on autopilot".
And awareness is supported by willpower (effort, diligence). The more diligence, the more awareness.
Right?

[Johnny Dangerous]

It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.

I don't quite understand what you are talking about. The translator cannot connect the words.
What does it mean to "be aware of every decision by willpower?"

In general, you wanted to say that if we are conscious, we can make a strong-willed decision, make a conscious choice.
If we are not aware, then the decision will be "on autopilot".
And awareness is supported by willpower (effort, diligence). The more diligence, the more awareness.
Right?

Again, the passage takes certain assumptions as a backdrop - the fact that we -are not- fully conscious or aware of our minds and bodies much of the time is the whole reason we need to practice being aware/conscious of what is happening with them.

When you post about it you keep using very absolute language such as “at any time”, what I am trying to tell you is that no, from a Buddhist perspective you do not have total free will at any time, you must apply the teachings to gain greater awareness gradually, and the amount of actual agency you have over your own mind will be proportional to how successful you are in increasing that awareness.

Maybe you already know this and I am just mistaking the meaning of your questions.

It’s tough to answer you well because some of the ways you are stating things are very declarative and absolute, and Buddhism does not always fit into neat boxes that way.

This is why me and others have mentioned practice, it is very difficult to sum up the nuances of the process of Buddhist meditation in simple black and white statements.

[Konstantin Sol]

It turns out that there is always a choice. In every action. But whether we see it or not, whether we are aware of it or not, that's the problem?

Buddha's message
Dhammawuddho Thera

... Our six sense organs - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind - cognize six sensual objects - respectively forms, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations and thoughts. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (deliberate action) is created...

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.

Ok, I'll try to be less categorical.
In general, you wanted to say that with an increase in the degree of awareness, we increase the degree of control over the mind and the ability to increasingly make volitional decisions about what to do.
And the degree of awareness depends on the degree of volitional efforts (diligence). The more diligence, the more awareness.
All right?

[PadmaVonSamba]

In general, you wanted to say that with an increase in the degree of awareness, we increase the degree of control over the mind and the ability to increasingly make volitional decisions about what to do.
And the degree of awareness depends on the degree of volitional efforts (diligence). The more diligence, the more awareness.
All right?

The more you pay attention
to what you are thinking, saying, and doing,
the more control you’ll have
over what you are thinking, saying, and doing.

If you ride a bike or drive a car, or cook, or garden, or bathe, you already know this.

[Konstantin Sol]

Thank you!

[Konstantin Sol]

This passage is talking about what is possible with mindfulness, not saying you can just choose to be conscious of every decision by force of will, but describing how things can be with the right tools.

I don't quite understand what you are talking about. The translator cannot connect the words.
What does it mean to "be aware of every decision by willpower?"

In general, you wanted to say that if we are conscious, we can make a strong-willed decision, make a conscious choice.
If we are not aware, then the decision will be "on autopilot".
And awareness is supported by willpower (effort, diligence). The more diligence, the more awareness.
Right?

When you post about it you keep using very absolute language such as “at any time”, what I am trying to tell you is that no, from a Buddhist perspective you do not have total free will at any time, you must apply the teachings to gain greater awareness gradually, and the amount of actual agency you have over your own mind will be proportional to how successful you are in increasing that awareness.

Accordingly, there is no complete free will at any time, but there is some actual freedom that periodically appears, depending on awareness.
The more often we practice mindfulness, the greater the freedom of action.
Right?

[PadmaVonSamba]

what I am trying to tell you is that no, from a Buddhist perspective you do not have total free will at any time,

Accordingly, there is no complete free will at any time, but there is some actual freedom that periodically appears, depending on awareness.

What are you defining as free will and why do you say it doesn’t exist?

There is an Arabic adage: you can’t choose what cards you are dealt, but you can choose how you play them.

If by no free will, one means that we can’t control all of our circumstances, such as how tall we are or where we are born, that’s a mistaken use of the term. Not controlling conditions is not about having a lack of free will.

[Johnny Dangerous]

what I am trying to tell you is that no, from a Buddhist perspective you do not have total free will at any time,

Accordingly, there is no complete free will at any time, but there is some actual freedom that periodically appears, depending on awareness.

What are you defining as free will and why do you say it doesn’t exist?

There is an Arabic adage: you can’t choose what cards you are dealt, but you can choose how you play them.

If by no free will, one means that we can’t control all of our circumstances, such as how tall we are or where we are born, that’s a mistaken use of the term. Not controlling conditions is not about having a lack of free will.

I'm not quite sure I understand the distinction here, it seems as if you are saying that what is "outside" is not in our control, but that what is "inside" is, i.e. emotion, cognition and behavior. While I think this is true in a very limited sense, IMO it is not entirely accurate, and it is important to get as precise as possible here because it's a fairly important part of Buddhist practice, directly related to both Sati and Samadhi, as well as general ethics, etc.

A simple and pithy explanation is fine for motivational slogans, basic encouragement of ethical behavior, etc., but the OP is asking detailed questions here and I think a deeper examination of this notion of "free will" is fundamental to understanding how all the parts of Buddhadharma work together.

What I'm saying is that "free will" - (i.e. agency in the context Konstanin is asking about) is directly connected to awareness or unawareness of one's state at the time, where there is ignorance (as in one of three poisons ignorance specifically) there is by definition a lack of agency, because we are literally ignorant of causes, conditions, results, etc. Where there is awareness there is agency and ability to act with freedom.

I think it is a mistake (well, in the line of work I am in I pretty much -know- it is, both in terms of anecdotal evidence and research) to believe we have total agency over our emotions, cognition and behaviors, again the amount of agency we have depends on our awareness of these.

This is a thing which has been studied also by modern psychology and neuroscience, the idea that we have complete free agency with how we act, think, and feel is not borne out by anecdotal or empirical evidence, or even mechanistic models of brain or behavior. It's one place where I would say that Buddhism and modern science are often in agreement.

I can provide a very simple mechanistic example:

in FMRI scans which have been done on the brains of heavily addicted people the frontal lobe - which is involved in decision making, reasoning, etc. is actually less active, impaired, whereas the areas of the brain associated with craving and survival are lit up. Believe it or not, a similar neurological (and thus likely cognitive) process is at work with things like infatuation, romantic love, obsession, etc.There is a literal and observable process of narrowing of awareness of things other than the object of fixation/obsession, and this affects the decision making process itself, as well as prioritization and generally what gets focused on by the mind and what gets trimmed off.

I am bringing up the modern science because it is a mechanistic illustration of the fact that "choice" itself is actually a pretty malleable thing, and not a consistent or fixed principle, again choice and ability to act depends on awareness, even in the simplest terms - such as lack of awareness of the position of a car meaning one might get hit by it. It might seem like a flip example, but it is not so different, lack of awareness of one's anger takes away one's agency to not fall under it's sway, which affects one's cognition and behavior, and in turn continues to loop back and affect emotion, etc.

Sorry in advance if I'm misinterpreting you, I just think this is an important point to drill down on, and I'm not understanding how you are explaining free will here.

[PadmaVonSamba]

What I'm saying is that "free will" - (i.e. agency in the context Konstanin is asking about) is directly connected to awareness or unawareness of one's state at the time, where there is ignorance (as in one of three poisons ignorance specifically) there is by definition a lack of agency, because we are literally ignorant of causes, conditions, results, etc. Where there is awareness there is agency and ability to act with freedom.

Thanks. Now I understand better what you are referring to.
It’s like, a person may free to walk wherever they want, but they are also limited by how far their legs will carry them.
But of course, this is because everything arises conditionally you begin with.
Everybody could theoretically become a Buddha tomorrow. Yet, here we are.

Awareness is like money. You can’t use more than you have.

[Konstantin Sol]

Well, let's finally sum up a little.

Accordingly, there is no complete free will (freedom of action, freedom of choice) at any time, but there is periodically emerging free will (freedom of action, freedom of choice), depending on awareness.

Any ordinary person has awareness, but in a not very developed state. But there is an opportunity to develop it.
The more often we practice and develop mindfulness through diligence and effort, the more we gain freedom of action, increase the control of the mind, and the greater its degree. You can achieve a very high degree of freedom of action degree of control, and, ideally, at any time.

Right?