Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

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Stigg
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Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Stigg »

Are there any accounts of enlightened practitioners (lay/ordained, dead/alive) in Mahayana? I roughly remember people honouring Master Hsi Yun (who lived to 120 yrs old), but as far as accounts go, the status was bestowed by his followers rather than him claiming enlightenment. Is there anyone else? It's rather hard to find a self-proclaimed awakened practitioner in Mahayana (except for Zen, where almost everyone has some sort of awakening).
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Kai lord »

So many......basically any practitioners who died and remained in the state of Thukdam for days and other more advanced displays of parinirvana....You can easily google about the list of people who achieved that in the recent decades.

They were all considered liberated.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Aemilius »

You can search the web with Inka (jp) or Yinke (ch), which means kind of formal recognition of seeing the Dharmata, or whatever you want to call it.

In the Pureland schools there are different signs that will appear when the person dies (and is reborn in the pureland). You can search this with "death bed signs pureland school".

Some teachers in the Mahayana that have been or are considered to be enlightened: Yogi C. M. Chen, Upasaka Lu Kuan Yu, Ven. Hsuan Hua, Hsing Yun,..

An old discussion about Yinke https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=38198
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Nalanda »

In Mahayana, at what point can we say that a person is enlightened?

a) on the 8th bhumi?

b) 10th bhumi? upon attaining complete Buddhahood?

c) any bhumi level

d) other
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Kai lord »

Nalanda wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:51 am In Mahayana, at what point can we say that a person is enlightened?
Based on my experience, Its a complex question that varying from the path and tradition that you follow. You will receive lots of answers that might contradict each other.
a) on the 8th bhumi?
According to the sutras, 8th bhumi is first pure bhumi where all your afflictive obstructions are removed just like Arhats and that bodhisattva will never lose his direct perception of emptiness even in post meditation state like a 24/7 thing. Thats why they are said to be on the irreversible path to Buddhahood and even receive a prophecy of future Buddhahood from Buddha(s)
b) 10th bhumi? upon attaining complete Buddhahood?
10th bhumi is the first stage of Buddhahood but all the obstructions to omniscience are not completely removed and complete Buddhahood is either 11th or 13th or 16th bhumi depending on which tradition and practices that you follow
c) any bhumi level
Basically if you want to reduce confusion, the main idea is to focus on the obstructions that are removed rather than bhumi.
d) other
To give you an idea on how complicated this issue can be. In many Vajrayana traditions, if you attained the first bhumi within this life, all your afflictive obstructions will be removed instead of doing that in the eight bhumi as described in the sutras. And this life will essentially be your final karmic rebirth in Samara.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Aemilius »

How can you measure which bhumi you or someone else are on? or Who can measure it for you?
svaha
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Kai lord »

Signs of accomplishment.....as written and described like the four aspects of approach and accomplishment

Or it can be as simple as a drastic change in behaviour towards wholesomeness and greater display of renunciation and compassion
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Nalanda »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:09 pm
To give you an idea on how complicated this issue can be. In many Vajrayana traditions, if you attained the first bhumi within this life, all your afflictive obstructions will be removed instead of doing that in the eight bhumi as described in the sutras. And this life will essentially be your final karmic rebirth in Samara.
Haha, what in the world? For real?

Also, what are the traditions that say 11th, 13th, and 16th bhumis?

Why not 100? At what point is this going to be perfected if we have so many numbers to play with?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Kai lord »

Nalanda wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:57 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:09 pm
To give you an idea on how complicated this issue can be. In many Vajrayana traditions, if you attained the first bhumi within this life, all your afflictive obstructions will be removed instead of doing that in the eight bhumi as described in the sutras. And this life will essentially be your final karmic rebirth in Samara.
Haha, what in the world? For real?
Yes, its the irony of life that the more you learn the more you realize how much you don't know. :rolling:
Also, what are the traditions that say 11th, 13th, and 16th bhumis?
Sutras mention 11th, tantras mention 13th and 16th. Some systems in East Asian buddhism like Hua yua even has s system of 52 bhumis.

Some like Dogen, do away with whole concept of "bhumi' and insist on one single bhumi.

At any rate, you need to study those systems individually to know how they arrive at those numbers.
Why not 100? At what point is this going to be perfected if we have so many numbers to play with?
Thats why we should focus on the removal of obstructions, not bhumis which is a system of measurement based on the former.
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ItsRaining
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by ItsRaining »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:48 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:57 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:09 pm
To give you an idea on how complicated this issue can be. In many Vajrayana traditions, if you attained the first bhumi within this life, all your afflictive obstructions will be removed instead of doing that in the eight bhumi as described in the sutras. And this life will essentially be your final karmic rebirth in Samara.
Haha, what in the world? For real?
Yes, its the irony of life that the more you learn the more you realize how much you don't know. :rolling:
Also, what are the traditions that say 11th, 13th, and 16th bhumis?
Sutras mention 11th, tantras mention 13th and 16th. Some systems in East Asian buddhism like Hua yua even has s system of 52 bhumis.

Some like Dogen, do away with whole concept of "bhumi' and insist on one single bhumi.

At any rate, you need to study those systems individually to know how they arrive at those numbers.
Why not 100? At what point is this going to be perfected if we have so many numbers to play with?
Thats why we should focus on the removal of obstructions, not bhumis which is a system of measurement based on the former.
Huayan and other East Asian schools accept 52 stages of the Bodhisattva path, of which, only the last 10 are referred to as bhumis.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Kai lord »

ItsRaining wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:54 am
Kai lord wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 11:48 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:57 pm

Haha, what in the world? For real?
Yes, its the irony of life that the more you learn the more you realize how much you don't know. :rolling:
Also, what are the traditions that say 11th, 13th, and 16th bhumis?
Sutras mention 11th, tantras mention 13th and 16th. Some systems in East Asian buddhism like Hua yua even has s system of 52 bhumis.

Some like Dogen, do away with whole concept of "bhumi' and insist on one single bhumi.

At any rate, you need to study those systems individually to know how they arrive at those numbers.
Why not 100? At what point is this going to be perfected if we have so many numbers to play with?
Thats why we should focus on the removal of obstructions, not bhumis which is a system of measurement based on the former.
Huayan and other East Asian schools accept 52 stages of the Bodhisattva path, of which, only the last 10 are referred to as bhumis.
Yes its a very unique way by the East Asian Buddhism to classify and breakdown the path of accumulation and application into 42 different stages.

Tibetans did the breakdown of that two paths into 9 +12= 21 different phases .
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Aemilius »

Actually there are 52 stages of the path in the Avatamsaka/Gandavyuha/Shurangama system of the path:

1-10 stages
Ten Faiths

11-20 stages
Ten abidings

21-30 stages
The ten practices

31-40 stages
Ten dedications (of merit)

41-50 stages
Ten stages (bhumi)

51. Equal enlightenment Bodhisattva

52. Marvelous enlightenment Bodhisattva

53. Buddha

with more detail in http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=184929407
and in https://lotus-happiness.com/52-stages-b ... practices/

These stages can further be divided into causal and resultant stages, and thus get 104 stages. Previously the last three stages were three stages of the Buddha. The above seems to be the present consensus.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Stigg »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:59 am So many......basically any practitioners who died and remained in the state of Thukdam for days and other more advanced displays of parinirvana....You can easily google about the list of people who achieved that in the recent decades.

They were all considered liberated.
Thanks, I'm looking for pure Mahayana figures (not counting the Vajrayana/Shingon sects). I think others had a good point: Which level bhumi is considered enlightened? If we are to consider only a fully awakened Buddha as enlightened, i would think no one would dare lay claim to that? Maybe essentially there are no enlightened beings as far as this goes.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by DNS »

Stigg wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:59 am I roughly remember people honouring Master Hsi Yun (who lived to 120 yrs old), but as far as accounts go, the status was bestowed by his followers rather than him claiming enlightenment.
Did you mean Master Hsing Yun? If so, he's still alive, 94 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsing_Yun

Or is Hsi Yun a different person? Do you have a link to a bio about him?
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Stigg wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 am
Kai lord wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:59 am So many......basically any practitioners who died and remained in the state of Thukdam for days and other more advanced displays of parinirvana....You can easily google about the list of people who achieved that in the recent decades.

They were all considered liberated.
Thanks, I'm looking for pure Mahayana figures (not counting the Vajrayana/Shingon sects). I think others had a good point: Which level bhumi is considered enlightened? If we are to consider only a fully awakened Buddha as enlightened, i would think no one would dare lay claim to that? Maybe essentially there are no enlightened beings as far as this goes.
There’s no such thing as ‘pure Mahayana’ figures…I guess you could count Indian pandits and yogis.

There are all kinds of people today declaring themselves fully enlightened…in general they are pretty sketchy!

Usually when a teacher is thought to have a significant level of realization, that reputation comes from the teachers students.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Kai lord »

Stigg wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 am
Kai lord wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:59 am So many......basically any practitioners who died and remained in the state of Thukdam for days and other more advanced displays of parinirvana....You can easily google about the list of people who achieved that in the recent decades.

They were all considered liberated.
Thanks, I'm looking for pure Mahayana figures (not counting the Vajrayana/Shingon sects).
Well, Vajrayana is the resultant Mahayana vehicle. But if you insist on the Causal Mahayana vehicle. We have historically Asanga, Nagarjuna. Dignaga, etc, who are Arya bodhisattvas.
I think others had a good point: Which level bhumi is considered enlightened?
I already answered that (sort of). If you consider liberation from uncontrolled rebirth in the six realms of Samara as enlightenment. Then the removal of all afflictive obstacles and their tendencies like Arahants is the key to that.

What bhumi that will be, differs from schools to traditions,
If we are to consider only a fully awakened Buddha as enlightened, i would think no one would dare lay claim to that? Maybe essentially there are no enlightened beings as far as this goes.
Why do you need them to make the claim? As I already hinted before, just look at the way and attitude they approach death to know their level of accomplishment.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I would stay away from a teacher who makes claims of their attainments.
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by DNS »

DNS wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:53 pm
Stigg wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:59 am I roughly remember people honouring Master Hsi Yun (who lived to 120 yrs old), but as far as accounts go, the status was bestowed by his followers rather than him claiming enlightenment.
Did you mean Master Hsing Yun? If so, he's still alive, 94 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsing_Yun

Or is Hsi Yun a different person? Do you have a link to a bio about him?
nvm, Nicholas found him.
https://www.dharmapaths.com/viewtopic.php?t=9325

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hsu_Yun

119 years old at his passing!
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Aemilius »

Stigg wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:03 am
Kai lord wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:59 am So many......basically any practitioners who died and remained in the state of Thukdam for days and other more advanced displays of parinirvana....You can easily google about the list of people who achieved that in the recent decades.

They were all considered liberated.
Thanks, I'm looking for pure Mahayana figures (not counting the Vajrayana/Shingon sects). I think others had a good point: Which level bhumi is considered enlightened? If we are to consider only a fully awakened Buddha as enlightened, i would think no one would dare lay claim to that? Maybe essentially there are no enlightened beings as far as this goes.
In Lankavatara sutra there is the concept and event of "Turning about in the deepest seat of consciousness", this would qualify as "enlightenment" in my opinion. If you read the descriptions and names of the ten bhumis that are available in the buddhist literature, it very much seems that the first bhumi equals enlightenment. But it does not make much difference, because you can not measure the bhumis like you can measure the results in competitive sports like marathon running, etc... You seem to be looking for an "objective scale of enlightenment", give it up! Such a thing has not been invented, so far at least. "Enlightenment" usually translates the word Bodhi. Mahayana sutras describe three kinds of bodhi: sravaka, pratyeakabuddha and bodhisattva. So it is certainly an existent thing/phenomenon.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Enlightened people in Mahayana (past or present)

Post by Nicholas2727 »

I think it will be almost impossible to say forsure what people were/are enlightened but there have been many amazing teachers in the past/present. You are asking specifically from the point of view of common Mahayana and historically there are many amazing masters in China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam and Taiwan. Zhiyi, Dogen, Hakuin, Jinul, the Chan patriarchs, etc are all considered great masters. Were they enlightened? I don't know, but they were definitely some impressive people. As far as modern teachers go there are many well known teachers like Master Hsuan Hua, Sheng Yen, Thich Nhat Hanh, Seung Sahn, Thich Thanh Tu, Omori Sogen, Kodo Sawaki, and many others who all seemed to be extraordinary practitioners. Were any of them enlightened? Still I don't know. There are probably numerous practitioners that we will never know about who are quite amazing as well. I remember in an interview Guo Gu did he discussed a Chan master he would see in Taiwan on top of a mountain. For all we know he could have been enlightened or any of the other hermits living a life of seclusion or practice could be. I try to focus on a teachers behavior and see how they truly help other beings since this is what the Mahayana comes down to. If you see them act with utmost compassion and wisdom that is already a big step in my opinion.
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