Teacher-Student Consent

[Johnny Dangerous]

These abuses exist in all religions, and in none at all - schools, workplaces, virtually any kind of institution.

Given this, I have not seen a compelling argument that Vajrayana Buddhism is unique in the amount or type of abuse that goes on.

Though I get why it’s a tempting claim, it’s really pure conjecture to assume it is mainly religious tenets leading to abuse. It is contrary to the evidence given the extent of the problem. This is a problem that extends everywhere there are hierarchical systems and/or misogyny, which unfortunately is pretty much everywhere.

That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be addressed to the best of our abilities here, it certainly should….only that if we are looking for causes specific religious practice might not be the place.

[Malcolm]

In my view it's about time that we understand spiritual teachers to be none other than coaches, essentially. There is no magic sauce here, just because we are dealing with things like "enlightenment" and the like. A teacher is not only supposed to be a good teacher, but s/he is supposed to have some elusive realization that nobody except a fully realized buddha can judge, and of course nobody knows who a fully realized buddha is.

One's guru can be a coach from their own perspective, but from one's own perspective it is better to understand they are a fully realized buddha. And since we have impure vision, when we practice Guru yoga, etc., we rarely visualize them in their own form, but rather in the form of Vajradhara, etc.

So, by this very logic a teacher's authority is established not by qualities such as learning and qualities in teaching but first and foremost by some transcendental, elusive realization that nobody has ever seen or touched, and that we all must believe is there, because, well, because <reason>.

The teacher's authority is established through one accepting someone as one's guru, fully understanding the parameters of the relationship. Sadly, many people jump into such relationships, both teachers and students, without proper examination. It is a little harder from the teacher's side, because of course we want everyone to connect with whatever teachers we offer, not for personal gain (hopefully), but because we believe in the teachings we have to give. The students have an easier time, because they can observe a given teacher for a long while and make sure a relationship with them will be fruitful before entering into a samaya relationship.

[Knotty Veneer]

These abuses exist in all religions, and in none at all - schools, workplaces, virtually any kind of institution.

Given this, I have not seen a compelling argument that Vajrayana Buddhism is unique in the amount or type of abuse that goes on.

Though I get why it’s a tempting claim, it’s really pure conjecture to assume it is mainly religious tenets leading to abuse. It is contrary to the evidence given the extent of the problem. This is a problem that extends everywhere there are hierarchical systems and/or misogyny, which unfortunately is pretty much everywhere.

That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be addressed to the best of our abilities here, it certainly should….only that if we are looking for causes specific religious practice might not be the place.

I'd agree that no more abuse goes on in Vajrayana Buddhism than other schools or religions.

However, because of the centrality of the role of the guru and the concepts of samaya and pure view, the abuse that does take place, in my opinion, is of a particularly nasty sort. It's not just a monk breaking his vows, or at least position of trust, but gaslighting someone into believing that it is a spiritual act. Even if it is not explicitly presented as such the person abused cannot fathom that the fake guru is doing anything that is not for their benefit. This is compounded by fact that the fake guru's community is made complicit through their samaya promise and disposed to believe his rationalization of the abuse.

When a Zen teacher sleeps with a student's wife, I don't believe anyone involved thinks there is a spiritual purpose to it. The Zen teacher loses any faith that students have in their enlightened status. In TBism, somehow, a fake guru gets to brazen it out more easily and his students are less likely to question their enlightened status. I think some of the partners of women Trungpa slept with saw it at least as a teaching, if not actually an honor.

[Johnny Dangerous]

These abuses exist in all religions, and in none at all - schools, workplaces, virtually any kind of institution.

Given this, I have not seen a compelling argument that Vajrayana Buddhism is unique in the amount or type of abuse that goes on.

Though I get why it’s a tempting claim, it’s really pure conjecture to assume it is mainly religious tenets leading to abuse. It is contrary to the evidence given the extent of the problem. This is a problem that extends everywhere there are hierarchical systems and/or misogyny, which unfortunately is pretty much everywhere.

That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be addressed to the best of our abilities here, it certainly should….only that if we are looking for causes specific religious practice might not be the place.

I'd agree that no more abuse goes on in Vajrayana Buddhism than other schools or religions.

However, because of the centrality of the role of the guru and the concepts of samaya and pure view, the abuse that does take place, in my opinion, is of a particularly nasty sort. It's not just a monk breaking his vows, or at least position of trust, but gaslighting someone into believing that it is a spiritual act. Even if it is not explicitly presented as such the person abused cannot fathom that the fake guru is doing anything that is not for their benefit. This is compounded by fact that the fake guru's community is made complicit through their samaya promise and disposed to believe his rationalization of the abuse.

When a Zen teacher sleeps with a student's wife, I don't believe anyone involved thinks there is a spiritual purpose to it. The Zen teacher loses any faith that students in their enlightened status. In TBism, somehow, a fake guru gets to brazen it out more easily and his students are less likely to question their enlightened status. I think some of the partners of women Trungpa slept with saw it at least as a teaching, if not actually an honor.

Given the prevalence of such abuse, it has to do with power pretty generically. We can criticize Buddhist institutions here in the generic sense that they are often not egalitarian, are misogynistic etc., there is nothing uniquely Buddhist, Zen, or Vajrayana about those situations other the trappings.

There is a dark side to devotion in combination with rigid, hierarchical structures and unscrupulous people, including but not limited to the spiritual variety.

A lot of people’s reaction to this seems to be to blame the devotion, but I am not convinced the devotion is the problem, and I think devotion is a natural human inclination, anyway.

All abuse is of a nasty sort, go read an account of sexual abuse in the military, a school, or similar. The stories are all pretty similar, unfortunately.

I had a job a few years ago that would sometimes involve reading police reports of abuse, and my job today often involves hearing accounts of it, the basic facts of situations do not seem very different to me. They have to do very often with misogyny, and also with social structures that deny basic autonomy to some people. Like I said, it’s a pervasive problem. To me the way people discuss it as if is some specific religious issue borders on absurd.

[Genjo Conan]

These abuses exist in all religions, and in none at all - schools, workplaces, virtually any kind of institution.

Given this, I have not seen a compelling argument that Vajrayana Buddhism is unique in the amount or type of abuse that goes on.

Though I get why it’s a tempting claim, it’s really pure conjecture to assume it is mainly religious tenets leading to abuse. It is contrary to the evidence given the extent of the problem. This is a problem that extends everywhere there are hierarchical systems and/or misogyny, which unfortunately is pretty much everywhere.

That isn’t to say it shouldn’t be addressed to the best of our abilities here, it certainly should….only that if we are looking for causes specific religious practice might not be the place.

Western Zen has had its own wrenching and ongoing struggles with teachers sexually abusing students. And while in Zen we are expected to revere our teachers, Zen doesn't practice guru devotion as I understand it is practiced in Vajrayana (though as I'm always at pains to say, I don't pretend to know much about Vajrayana). And there have been sex scandals in Theravadin traditions, and among secular Buddhists, and of course the Catholic Church, and the federal judiciary, and and and.

I think the OP had it partly right. Relationships in which a structural power imbalance inheres can facilitate abuse of all kinds. I think the OP was too categorical in their assertion that sexual relationships that arise from such structural imbalances are necessarily abusive -- but I think it's a big risk. I'm in management, and I'm flatly prohibited from having any sort of sexual relationship with anyone in the rank and file. That's a condition of my employment, and if I violate that term, it doesn't matter whether the relationship was consensual, I'm out. I understand and agree with that prohibition, because I think the subject is so fraught. But of course, there are times when it's not.

I certainly don't think that this is something unique to Vajrayana, in any event.

[Genjo Conan]

When a Zen teacher sleeps with a student's wife, I don't believe anyone involved thinks there is a spiritual purpose to it. The Zen teacher loses any faith that students have in their enlightened status.

I agree with the first sentence, but the second has proven false many times. Zen teachers have been credibly accused of all kinds of misconduct, and even when their temple responds quickly and appropriately--which itself is not always a given--these folks just often go on to hang out a shingle somewhere else.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I think the OP had it partly right. Relationships in which a structural power imbalance inheres can facilitate abuse of all kinds. I think the OP was too categorical in their assertion that sexual relationships that arise from such structural imbalances are necessarily abusive -- but I think it's a big risk. I'm in management, and I'm flatly prohibited from having any sort of sexual relationship with anyone in the rank and file. That's a condition of my employment, and if I violate that term, it doesn't matter whether the relationship was consensual, I'm out. I understand and agree with that prohibition, because I think the subject is so fraught. But of course, there are times when it's not.

I certainly don't think that this is something unique to Vajrayana, in any event.

Yes, but people will not stop having such relationships, at least to begin with, they are often entered into with some kind of consent, however lopsided. Then there are also the cases of such relationships which end up being ok.

So, we are basically left with trying to create more egalitarian social structures which are less prone to these abuses. I am not sure anyone has managed to create such a system yet.

I’m not sure workplace conduct-style rules are a great idea at all for sangha groups.

The position of being a manager at a job is quite different from the position of spiritual teacher.

[Knotty Veneer]

I think the OP had it partly right. Relationships in which a structural power imbalance inheres can facilitate abuse of all kinds. I think the OP was too categorical in their assertion that sexual relationships that arise from such structural imbalances are necessarily abusive -- but I think it's a big risk. I'm in management, and I'm flatly prohibited from having any sort of sexual relationship with anyone in the rank and file. That's a condition of my employment, and if I violate that term, it doesn't matter whether the relationship was consensual, I'm out. I understand and agree with that prohibition, because I think the subject is so fraught. But of course, there are times when it's not.

I certainly don't think that this is something unique to Vajrayana, in any event.

When I taught college 25 years ago - I had the same prohibition with regard to my students. I've suggested on this forum before, to no small outrage, that the same rules should apply to religious teachers of any persuasion.

While nobody wants to believe abuse is possible, it really is. And I believe our Bodhisattva vow to all save beings from suffering includes those who might suffer at the hands of unscrupulous Buddhist teachers. If the Karmapa situation does prove to be true, an ugly spotlight will be turned onto TBism. Other questions will be asked not just about teachers abusing Western women: about the abuse of child monks in monasteries, and the sexual abuse of nuns etc.

Things will have to change.

[Knotty Veneer]

When a Zen teacher sleeps with a student's wife, I don't believe anyone involved thinks there is a spiritual purpose to it. The Zen teacher loses any faith that students have in their enlightened status.

I agree with the first sentence, but the second has proven false many times. Zen teachers have been credibly accused of all kinds of misconduct, and even when their temple responds quickly and appropriately--which itself is not always a given--these folks just often go on to hang out a shingle somewhere else.

Yes that's what happened with Richard Baker and Genpo Roshi. But at least they got tossed out of the Sanghas they were leading at the time. I've never heard of that happening in TBist circles.

[Malcolm]

No they are not contradictory. You are continuing again to twist my words here. I never claimed that "legally somehow there could not be consent in voluntary relationships between a teacher and student".

I clearly stated in my original post that I was talking about sexual misconduct. That includes harassments, assault, etc. When it comes to spiritual teachers and students this is usually coerced through the abuse of power differential. There is no consent here. Again, I will re-post for the 3rd time, from the sexual assault attorney:

Your original post framed in the issue in such a way that any relationship that involved a power differential could not possibly be consensual. Either you think all teacher/student relationships that involve such power differential render consent impossible, causing all such relationships to be instances of misconduct, or you don't. It's binary.

If you think some teacher student relationships are not misconduct, then you are also admitting that power differentials are not a fact that defines misconduct, there must be some other facts in play.

[KathyLauren]

Alas, it appears again because of the emphasis on the role of the guru, TBist scandals seems to involve issues of consent in addition to the above. The ability to refuse consent is short-circuited by the belief that the abuser is incapable of wrongdoing and even to think such a thing is a wrong view. To my mind that makes the scandals that affect TBist groups more unpleasant and therefore more serious (not to downplay any wrongdoing in Sanghas).

I believe you have gotten to the heart of the issue with this paragraph.

Even if the guru makes no claim to that effect, often the lay disciples surrounding the guru do make such claims. I have heard exactly those words spoken to me in the context of, if I was asked, consent would be mandatory. Failure to consent would end me up in vajra hell.

Such mythology is common enough in Tibetan Buddhism. It is by no means unique to that particular group. Whether the guru supports it or not, whether it has scriptural basis or not, it circulates among the laity and is promulgated to newcomers.

Mandatory consent, of course, is not consent at all. I believe that was the point that the OP was trying to make.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[PadmaVonSamba]

These abuses exist in all religions, and in none at all - schools, workplaces, virtually any kind of institution.

Given this, I have not seen a compelling argument that Vajrayana Buddhism is unique in the amount or type of abuse that goes on.

Yes, which is why I mentioned that in every other environment, coercion, intimidation, abuse is usually possible because there is some kind of reward/punishment involved if the victim does/doesn’t comply. Some kind of carrot-and-stick.
So, either Vajrayana has invented it’s own magical carrot-and-stick? I don’t know what that would be, or, Vajrayana has some unique alternative method of coercion? What would that be?
If someone makes a claim that Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism in particular, is particularly ripe for this kind of coercion and abuse, then one needs to identify the basis on which that can happen, specifically.

[Konchog1]

Alas, it appears again because of the emphasis on the role of the guru, TBist scandals seems to involve issues of consent in addition to the above. The ability to refuse consent is short-circuited by the belief that the abuser is incapable of wrongdoing and even to think such a thing is a wrong view. To my mind that makes the scandals that affect TBist groups more unpleasant and therefore more serious (not to downplay any wrongdoing in Sanghas).

I agree 100%. But I wonder where this comes from. As I quoted before, Lama Tsongkhapa says to hold your Guru to his vows and the general guidelines of the pratimoksha even though he's a Buddha. Where does the attitude that if your Guru is a Buddha he can do whatever he wants come from?

[Johnny Dangerous]

Alas, it appears again because of the emphasis on the role of the guru, TBist scandals seems to involve issues of consent in addition to the above. The ability to refuse consent is short-circuited by the belief that the abuser is incapable of wrongdoing and even to think such a thing is a wrong view. To my mind that makes the scandals that affect TBist groups more unpleasant and therefore more serious (not to downplay any wrongdoing in Sanghas).

I believe you have gotten to the heart of the issue with this paragraph.

Even if the guru makes no claim to that effect, often the lay disciples surrounding the guru do make such claims. I have heard exactly those words spoken to me in the context of, if I was asked, consent would be mandatory. Failure to consent would end me up in vajra hell.

Such mythology is common enough in Tibetan Buddhism. It is by no means unique to that particular group. Whether the guru supports it or not, whether it has scriptural basis or not, it circulates among the laity and is promulgated to newcomers.

Mandatory consent, of course, is not consent at all. I believe that was the point that the OP was trying to make.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

I’m curious, have you ever experienced this?

Most of the time when I have seen a newer Vajrayana person doing this, it is because they heard something ( or likely read it, with no context) like the snake in the tube analogy, and they basically are approaching scrupulosity or some form of religious OCD. I mean, if we want to point this out as a possible Avenue of abuse, then we would have to attribute abuse in the entire Christian religion to this sort of factor, where it is -far-stronger than what is typically found in Vajrayana. That’s a tempting but seemingly lazy claim.

If we are going to evaluate this kind of thing, I think real world examples of threats of damnation in Vajrayana would be good to have. I have personally had the snake in the tube analogy explained to me by teachers, including high and well known Lamas. It is was not in any case explained in this way. I know such fundamentalist explanations exist of course.

At any rate, it is flimsy and speculative to connect this directly to abuse claims, there are just too many variables involved to take the connection seriously as a primary cause, and we have to acknowledge that when threatened with hell, people have some agency to believe it or not.

I am not convinced that this is a primary factor bringing about abuse in Vajrayana, compared to say, general misogyny, “see nothing say nothing” attitudes, etc.

[Malcolm]

Where does the attitude that if your Guru is a Buddha he can do whatever he wants come from?

It comes from the idea that one should tolerate strange behavior on the part of one's teacher's, like Tilopa killing fish, etc.

[Johnny Dangerous]

These abuses exist in all religions, and in none at all - schools, workplaces, virtually any kind of institution.

Given this, I have not seen a compelling argument that Vajrayana Buddhism is unique in the amount or type of abuse that goes on.

Yes, which is why I mentioned that in every other environment, coercion, intimidation, abuse is usually possible because there is some kind of reward/punishment involved if the victim does/doesn’t comply. Some kind of carrot-and-stick.
So, either Vajrayana has invented it’s own magical carrot-and-stick? I don’t know what that would be, or, Vajrayana has some unique alternative method of coercion? What would that be?
If someone makes a claim that Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism in particular, is particularly ripe for this kind of coercion and abuse, then one needs to identify the basis on which that can happen, specifically.

The argument is always the same, it’s a simplistic argument based on the fact that religions usually have some built in claims about what happens to heretics, vow breakers, what have you.

Again due to the presence of quite similar abuse in environments involving none of these things, I don’t find the line of reasoning convincing.

Those things certainly are part of the ‘how’ in some cases, but I am not convinced they are part of the ‘why’ at all.

[Knotty Veneer]

I am not convinced that this is a primary factor bringing about abuse in Vajrayana, compared to say, general misogyny, “see nothing say nothing” attitudes, etc.

Although there is something in what you say, I think that it is wishful thinking to believe guru/samaya stuff is not the major factor in abuse in TBist groups, JD.

I think back to the Trungpa podcast thread a while back which reported on how he was witnessed by a group of adults French kissing a 13 year old girl - and they all did nothing.

They all did nothing because they had been convinced that he could do no wrong. No one spoke up. No one stopped him. That's not attributable to simple misogyny.

Nor is the years-long denial of abusive behavior by Sogyal Lakar because of simple misogyny either.

[Johnny Dangerous]

I am not convinced that this is a primary factor bringing about abuse in Vajrayana, compared to say, general misogyny, “see nothing say nothing” attitudes, etc.

Although there is something in what you say, I think that it is wishful thinking to believe guru/samaya stuff is not the major factor in abuse in TBist groups, JD.

It’s easy to think that way when such abuse is front and center in the environment you frequent, it’s understandable, but as far as evaluating causes of abuse, it’s a clear case of tunnel vision as far as I’m concerned.

I think back to the Trungpa podcast thread a while back which reported on how he was witnessed by a group of adults French kissing a 13 year old girl - and they all did nothing.

Not uncommon in such situations, hell, do you know what the bystander effect is? No religiousity at all required for such happenings.

They all did nothing because they had been convinced that he could do no wrong. No one spoke up. No one stopped him. That's not attributable to simple misogyny.

Again, a religious super imposition on an unfortunately all too common occurrence.

Misogyny is not simple, it is built into a large part of our social thinking and doing, I didn’t only mention misogyny as a factor anyway.

Nor is the years-long denial of abusive behavior by Sogyal Lakar because of simple misogyny eit

Yes, abuse like that is very complicated, it can’t be reduced to one factor, but if we are going to “because he threatened them with hell” or “they thought he could do wrong” is not a convincing one to me. Like I said, it may be a part of the how, but it is not the why, if it were we would not see the same stories all over the place, outside of religion, but we do.

[PadmaVonSamba]

I think back to the Trungpa podcast thread a while back which reported on how he was witnessed by a group of adults French kissing a 13 year old girl - and they all did nothing.

that’s the 1970’s for you.

[Konchog1]

I think back to the Trungpa podcast thread a while back which reported on how he was witnessed by a group of adults French kissing a 13 year old girl - and they all did nothing.

that’s the 1970’s for you.

Agree. It's just boomers booming. For decades, whenever I criticized Trungpa for doing drugs, having six wives, raping women, torturing dogs and creating a state within a state like Rajneesh, the reply wasn't 'vajra hell' it was "you don't get it, it was a special teaching for us". Ok.