Teacher-Student Consent
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Teacher-Student Consent
I was recently reading a topic on here about sexual misconduct between teacher-student and saw multiple posts framing the issue within whether or not there was consent. From what I understand having researched sexual misconduct and power differentials in religious community, there is no such thing as consent when it comes to the type of power differential that exists between a spiritual teacher and student. I have heard that some Sanghas have rules that the only way a teacher and student can get involved sexually is if the teacher-student relationship is terminated for a certain amount of time before there can be consensual romantic involvement. I think this issue is important to talk about within the current climate of debate around different misconduct scandals. Thank you for your time and I appreciate any further insight into this issue for the protection and proliferation of the Buddha dharma healing through misconduct in Sangha's.
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
That’s a common, but puritanical and ultimately absurd position.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:56 pm I was recently reading a topic on here about sexual misconduct between teacher-student and saw multiple posts framing the issue within whether or not there was consent. From what I understand having researched sexual misconduct and power differentials in religious community, there is no such thing as consent when it comes to the type of power differential that exists between a spiritual teacher and student. I have heard that some Sanghas have rules that the only way a teacher and student can get involved sexually is if the teacher-student relationship is terminated for a certain amount of time before there can be consensual romantic involvement. I think this issue is important to talk about within the current climate of debate around different misconduct scandals. Thank you for your time and I appreciate any further insight into this issue for the protection and proliferation of the Buddha dharma healing through misconduct in Sangha's.
People have consensual relationships within relationships with power differentials *all the time* the idea that ‘there is no such thing as consent’ in such situations is so overly simplistic it can be dismissed on the face of it.
Such situations tend to be complicated, and for sure the greater the power differential, the more fraught such relationships are.
The idea that there is no consent is ridiculous though, it comes from a purely ideological place and makes faulty assumptions about human agency.
‘Consent’ is its own thing, it does not imply ‘fair’, ‘equal’, or ‘a good idea’.
I find the idea that people believe they can eliminate such relationships curious…such an attitude if prohibition has never worked for much of anything, and certainly not human romance and sexual behavior.
It seems to me that aiming for harm reduction is a better goal than black and white moralism.
As far as rules, Buddhism is a diverse religion, some Western groups seem to be moving in the direction of basically have workplace style HR regulations for their sangha. I get the rationale, abuse must be addressed, but I’m not sure I’m entirely comfortable with trying to impose these HR structures on an ancient relationship - I.e. sangha.
It makes me glad my meat space Dharma circle is small, I am not sure I would want to practice in such an environment. Not because I think such relationships are a good idea, they are often disasters, but because to me the more sangha feels like my workplace, the more there is impediment to the unflinchingly honest, sometimes difficult relationships that are part of spiritual growth.
I fear that in the name of addressing abuse, etc. sangha will be sterilized into meaninglessness. Perhaps that’s extreme, but that is the direction I see some Western-oriented sangha going….no thanks.
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
"Strictly from a legal context, a power imbalance negates consent. If there is the potential for any form of coercive influence, consent cannot be given. "Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:15 pmThat’s a common, but puritanical and ultimately absurd position.
People have consensual relationships within relationships with power differentials *all the time* the idea that ‘there is no such thing as consent’ in such situations is so overly simplistic it can be dismissed on the face of it.
https://www.mypacertimes.com/home/2021/ ... %20consent.
We are talking specifically about the power differential between a spiritual teacher and their student(s). To generalize here is a gross diversion from the argument at hand. Your point here is beyond invalid to equate and lump it all together. It is not an oversimplification to say that consent is negated in such situations.
Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Misconduct is definitely an important topic to discuss openly and to be clear about.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:56 pm I was recently reading a topic on here about sexual misconduct between teacher-student and saw multiple posts framing the issue within whether or not there was consent. From what I understand having researched sexual misconduct and power differentials in religious community, there is no such thing as consent when it comes to the type of power differential that exists between a spiritual teacher and student. I have heard that some Sanghas have rules that the only way a teacher and student can get involved sexually is if the teacher-student relationship is terminated for a certain amount of time before there can be consensual romantic involvement. I think this issue is important to talk about within the current climate of debate around different misconduct scandals. Thank you for your time and I appreciate any further insight into this issue for the protection and proliferation of the Buddha dharma healing through misconduct in Sangha's.
The idea that it is defacto unacceptable to have relations between a student and teacher is certainly not traditional, I don’t think we should consider Yeshe Tsogyal as having been taken advantage of by Padmasambhava (!).
The ideas about the power differentials are very modern and may show a need to be more clear about the role of the teacher and that it is acceptable to say no to a teacher.
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
I think we all resist any idea of regulating teacher/student relationships to some degree or another.
I think some of the reason for this lies in the stories we all tell ourselves about our spiritual practice - most notably that our practice, our teacher and our spiritual community are somehow beyond the scope of mundane activity and relationships, and we don't want to admit that the messy world of normal human foolishness, insincerity, and even sexual predation can be found there too.
We need our teacher to be beyond reproach and our practice world a pure land of wisdom and the best of intentions. To put any kind of mundane limit on that would kill the fantasy.
I do believe that Sanghas should have a code of conduct for ALL members. The real deal crazy wisdom guys will not be impeded, only the phony sex pests who prey on the naive. Even if the current leader is a saint, the next might not be. I don't think there is anything to lose doing this except the fantasy of our 'pure' spirituality. And the loss of that is no bad thing either
I think some of the reason for this lies in the stories we all tell ourselves about our spiritual practice - most notably that our practice, our teacher and our spiritual community are somehow beyond the scope of mundane activity and relationships, and we don't want to admit that the messy world of normal human foolishness, insincerity, and even sexual predation can be found there too.
We need our teacher to be beyond reproach and our practice world a pure land of wisdom and the best of intentions. To put any kind of mundane limit on that would kill the fantasy.
I do believe that Sanghas should have a code of conduct for ALL members. The real deal crazy wisdom guys will not be impeded, only the phony sex pests who prey on the naive. Even if the current leader is a saint, the next might not be. I don't think there is anything to lose doing this except the fantasy of our 'pure' spirituality. And the loss of that is no bad thing either
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Of course not! Very different situations. I'm kind of tired seeing this argument in discussions about current abuse scandals and how to address it. All too often people pull out the whole Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava highest yoga tantra relationship..climb-up wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:19 pm Misconduct is definitely an important topic to discuss openly and to be clear about.
The idea that it is defacto unacceptable to have relations between a student and teacher is certainly not traditional, I don’t think we should consider Yeshe Tsogyal as having been taken advantage of by Padmasambhava (!).
The whole point is that the specific spiritual teacher-student power differentials make it so difficult for a student to say No to a teacher. Especially if that student is told to accept every action of the teacher to be the Buddha's actions.
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
The claim that any adult entering into any relationship with a spiritual teacher magically loses their agency to make decisions is absurd, even in Vajrayana circles.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:10 pm"Strictly from a legal context, a power imbalance negates consent. If there is the potential for any form of coercive influence, consent cannot be given. "Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:15 pmThat’s a common, but puritanical and ultimately absurd position.
People have consensual relationships within relationships with power differentials *all the time* the idea that ‘there is no such thing as consent’ in such situations is so overly simplistic it can be dismissed on the face of it.
https://www.mypacertimes.com/home/2021/ ... %20consent.
We are talking specifically about the power differential between a spiritual teacher and their student(s). To generalize here is a gross diversion from the argument at hand. Your point here is beyond invalid to equate and lump it all together. It is not an oversimplification to say that consent is negated in such situations.
On the legal issue, I’ll look into it more, I was under the impression it was not so clear cut, especially with a vague category such as “spiritual teacher”.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Exactly, as HHDL has said, one has every right to leave an abusive teacher, there is no fault.climb-up wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:19 pmMisconduct is definitely an important topic to discuss openly and to be clear about.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:56 pm I was recently reading a topic on here about sexual misconduct between teacher-student and saw multiple posts framing the issue within whether or not there was consent. From what I understand having researched sexual misconduct and power differentials in religious community, there is no such thing as consent when it comes to the type of power differential that exists between a spiritual teacher and student. I have heard that some Sanghas have rules that the only way a teacher and student can get involved sexually is if the teacher-student relationship is terminated for a certain amount of time before there can be consensual romantic involvement. I think this issue is important to talk about within the current climate of debate around different misconduct scandals. Thank you for your time and I appreciate any further insight into this issue for the protection and proliferation of the Buddha dharma healing through misconduct in Sangha's.
The idea that it is defacto unacceptable to have relations between a student and teacher is certainly not traditional, I don’t think we should consider Yeshe Tsogyal as having been taken advantage of by Padmasambhava (!).
The ideas about the power differentials are very modern and may show a need to be more clear about the role of the teacher and that it is acceptable to say no to a teacher.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
How are the situations completely different?“solastalgia” wrote:
Of course not! Very different situations. I'm kind of tired seeing this argument in discussions about current abuse scandals and how to address it. All too often people pull out the whole Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava highest yoga tantra relationship..
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Great points, Knotty. I think some people see any regulation as some sort of HR imposition on their puritanical idea of an ancient Sangha. I think this is part of the orientalist purity ideal some westerners fantasize about their museum Buddhism. Meanwhile I know actual Tibetan teachers that really appreciate so-called "modern" "western" help when it comes to dealing with these issues. Let's stop with this whole purity politics notion that the power differentials and protective preventive measures is just "modern" concepts being imposed on this pure pristine oriental Shambala.Knotty Veneer wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:52 pm I think we all resist any idea of regulating teacher/student relationships to some degree or another.
I think some of the reason for this lies in the stories we all tell ourselves about our spiritual practice - most notably that our practice, our teacher and our spiritual community are somehow beyond the scope of mundane activity and relationships, and we don't want to admit that the messy world of normal human foolishness, insincerity, and even sexual predation can be found there too.
We need our teacher to be beyond reproach and our practice world a pure land of wisdom and the best of intentions. To put any kind of mundane limit on that would kill the fantasy.
I do believe that Sanghas should have a code of conduct for ALL members. The real deal crazy wisdom guys will not be impeded, only the phony sex pests who prey on the naive. Even if the current leader is a saint, the next might not be. I don't think there is anything to lose doing this except the fantasy of our 'pure' spirituality. And the loss of that is no bad thing thing either
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
I am not comfortable with either extreme. Saying that consent can never be given in a student-teacher relationship is one extreme. Saying that if the (tantric) teacher wants to have sex with you it is the greatest honour and the greatest teaching and you must agree to it is the other extreme. I have heard both positions advocated.
However, having said that I do not like extremes, I do not take a neutral position between them. The power dynamic in a teacher-student rrelationship makes sexual relations problematic, and usually a really, really bad idea. I would be more comfortable receiving teachings from a lama who advocated the first extreme than one who advocated for the second.
Given the prevalence of sexual abuse allegations in sanghas, I do not think that rules for teachers are out of place. The idea that a teacher can do no wrong is ripe for abuse. Even if a teacher is not a monastic, they should be required to follow some Vinaya-type rules while in the role of teacher.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
However, having said that I do not like extremes, I do not take a neutral position between them. The power dynamic in a teacher-student rrelationship makes sexual relations problematic, and usually a really, really bad idea. I would be more comfortable receiving teachings from a lama who advocated the first extreme than one who advocated for the second.
Given the prevalence of sexual abuse allegations in sanghas, I do not think that rules for teachers are out of place. The idea that a teacher can do no wrong is ripe for abuse. Even if a teacher is not a monastic, they should be required to follow some Vinaya-type rules while in the role of teacher.
Om mani padme hum
Kathy
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
If only it were that easy to just leave an abusive situation... You must not have that much experience around any sort of abuse, Johnny.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:55 pm Exactly, as HHDL has said, one has every right to leave an abusive teacher, there is no fault.
WHY IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO LEAVE
All too often the question “Why do people stay in abusive relationships?” is posed to survivors, implying that they are to blame for the abuse.
https://www.womenagainstabuse.org/educa ... t-to-leave
11 Reasons Why People in Abusive Relationships Can’t “Just Leave”
https://www.joinonelove.org/learn/why_l ... e_is_hard/
Unless You've Been There, You Can't Understand Why It's So Hard To Leave A Toxic Or Abusive Relationship
https://www.scarymommy.com/hard-to-leav ... lationship
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Hmmmmm..... let's see, two completely enlightened beings in a highest yoga tantra consort relationship, versus today's degenerate age current teacher-student abuse scandals... just a little different I would say...Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:01 pmHow are the situations completely different?“solastalgia” wrote:
Of course not! Very different situations. I'm kind of tired seeing this argument in discussions about current abuse scandals and how to address it. All too often people pull out the whole Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava highest yoga tantra relationship..
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
This is a complete straw man argument.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:53 pm The claim that any adult entering into any relationship with a spiritual teacher magically loses their agency to make decisions is absurd, even in Vajrayana circles.
On the legal issue, I’ll look into it more, I was under the impression it was not so clear cut, especially with a vague category such as “spiritual teacher”.
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Your first post seems pretty clear that you believe -any- relationship between a spiritual teacher is non-consensual, and (I guess) implicitly abusive.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:18 pmThis is a complete straw man argument.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:53 pm The claim that any adult entering into any relationship with a spiritual teacher magically loses their agency to make decisions is absurd, even in Vajrayana circles.
On the legal issue, I’ll look into it more, I was under the impression it was not so clear cut, especially with a vague category such as “spiritual teacher”.
How is that a straw man, what am I getting wrong about what you are trying to say?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Hmm in Vajrayana most view their teachers as at the very least realized, and the lucky/diligent ones view all beings the same way, so actually that relationship is not something so far removed from mere mortals.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:15 pmHmmmmm..... let's see, two completely enlightened beings in a highest yoga tantra consort relationship, versus today's degenerate age current teacher-student abuse scandals... just a little different I would say...Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:01 pmHow are the situations completely different?“solastalgia” wrote:
Of course not! Very different situations. I'm kind of tired seeing this argument in discussions about current abuse scandals and how to address it. All too often people pull out the whole Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava highest yoga tantra relationship..
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
I have actually, but plenty of relationships involving power differential are not clear cut examples of abuse at all, and not all are these sorts of situations.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:11 pmIf only it were that easy to just leave an abusive situation... You must not have that much experience around any sort of abuse, Johnny.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:55 pm Exactly, as HHDL has said, one has every right to leave an abusive teacher, there is no fault.
WHY IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO LEAVE
All too often the question “Why do people stay in abusive relationships?” is posed to survivors, implying that they are to blame for the abuse.
https://www.womenagainstabuse.org/educa ... t-to-leave
11 Reasons Why People in Abusive Relationships Can’t “Just Leave”
https://www.joinonelove.org/learn/why_l ... e_is_hard/
Unless You've Been There, You Can't Understand Why It's So Hard To Leave A Toxic Or Abusive Relationship
https://www.scarymommy.com/hard-to-leav ... lationship
Also, I don’t know who you are or what prompted you to start a hot thread on DW immediately upon your arrival, but you will probably get a lot further sticking to picking apart arguments than in picking apart people.
Btw. I think some basic guidelines in sangha and for teachers are fine, once things start impugning on the autonomy of sangha members to date, etc. and regulating sexual relationships, naw, I’ll pass.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
I didn't say any relationship between a spiritual teacher is non-consensual and implicitly abusive. I will no longer engage in debate with you because of these straw mans and twisting of words is completely unfair. Take care.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:31 pm Your first post seems pretty clear that you believe -any- relationship between a spiritual teacher is non-consensual, and (I guess) implicitly abusive.
How is that a straw man, what am I getting wrong about what you are trying to say?
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Re: Teacher-Student Consent
You could always just be more clear about what you are trying to say, too, because it is not that clear to me.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:37 pmI didn't say any relationship between a spiritual teacher is non-consensual and implicitly abusive. I will no longer engage in debate with you because of these straw mans and twisting of words is completely unfair. Take care.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:31 pm Your first post seems pretty clear that you believe -any- relationship between a spiritual teacher is non-consensual, and (I guess) implicitly abusive.
How is that a straw man, what am I getting wrong about what you are trying to say?
I imagine almost everyone here agrees to one degree or another that abuse in the sangha is a serious thing that needs to be addressed.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Teacher-Student Consent
Please explain why this is "of course" not the same.solastalgia wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:52 pmOf course not! Very different situations. I'm kind of tired seeing this argument in discussions about current abuse scandals and how to address it. All too often people pull out the whole Yeshe Tsogyal and Padmasambhava highest yoga tantra relationship..climb-up wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:19 pm Misconduct is definitely an important topic to discuss openly and to be clear about.
The idea that it is defacto unacceptable to have relations between a student and teacher is certainly not traditional, I don’t think we should consider Yeshe Tsogyal as having been taken advantage of by Padmasambhava (!).
You said in you OP that you did understand that consent is not possible in the context of a spiritual teacher and student, but say that "of course" this HYT realationship is not the same.
Why? Are we not talking about HYT teachers?
For more modern situations, my root teacher's wife was his student for decades until he died, there has never been any hint of abuse or misconduct. My current primary teacher has two children with one of his students who continues to study with him and is a teacher in his organization, not only has there been no talk of misconduct, but he actively spreads information dedicated to working against teachers taking advantage of teir students.
Right, and that power differential is a mistaken view and is the problem, whether there is sexual contact with students or not.The whole point is that the specific spiritual teacher-student power differentials make it so difficult for a student to say No to a teacher. Especially if that student is told to accept every action of the teacher to be the Buddha's actions.
Last edited by climb-up on Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Death's second name is 'omnipresent.' On the relative truth it seems we become separate. But on the absolute there is no separation." Lama Dawa