Dzogchen and the Two Stages

[Guru Dragpo]

OK. 4. Dzogchen
I know that Namkai Norbu Rinpoche directly taught Dzogchen. I only know Palyul and Shechen. They teach Nyiondro first there. This is my karma.

[yagmort]

There is no constant path pattern.
1. Example 1. Nyiondro. 2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/. 3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3. Dzogchen..

are these examples from Namchö, or you are talking generally?

[Guru Dragpo]

There is no constant path pattern.
1. Example 1. Nyiondro. 2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/. 3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3. Dzogchen..

are these examples from Namchö, or you are talking generally?

These are examples of people who walk this path. My acquaintances. My teachers always encouraged me to go through the practices of the three roots. In Palyul they recommend three roots.

[yagmort]

i see, thanks for your input Guru Dragpo

[cloudburst]

thanks everyone for the info


ok so please check if i got it right.
one first do 3 retreats on ngondro, tummo and thogal. after that one is qualified to do 3 year retreat. during 3 year retreat 3 roots is accumulated first. after 3 roots one is introduced to tregchö. i still don't see where yidam practice takes place? i mean does it come after ngöndro? before or after 3 roots? or, as Cone and Malcolm say, it is not really being practiced? from what i understand, Troworoza is generated instantly during tummo practice and is not a separate kyerim deity practice?

There is no constant path pattern.
1. Example 1. Nyiondro. 2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/. 3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3. Dzogchen.
There are many different ways to practice Dharma. It depends on you and your Guru.

You forgot 4. Dzogchen.

What percentage of practitioners would you say practice dzogchen without doing yidam practice or preliminaries?

[Malcolm]

There is no constant path pattern.
1. Example 1. Nyiondro. 2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/. 3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3. Dzogchen.
There are many different ways to practice Dharma. It depends on you and your Guru.

You forgot 4. Dzogchen.

What percentage of practitioners would you say practice dzogchen without doing yidam practice or preliminaries?

There are specific Dzogchen preliminaries, which are indispensable, but I guess what you asking is how many people who practice Dzogchen do so without having done the common and uncommon preliminaries. It's kind of a misstated question. Most Dzogchen teachers introduce Dzogchen teachings immediately, and then assist their students in helping them find the appropriate secondary practices, which might be ngondro, or some yidam, etc. The main practice of a Dzogchen practitioner is guru yoga, and that is included in any ngondro. Even Migtsema can be a Dzogchen practice, if one understands the principle of the three vajras and their relationship to the three family protectors. After all, the very first text, after his namthar, in the Lhasa edition of Tsongkhapa's collected works is a Dzogchen text.

[cloudburst]

What percentage of practitioners would you say practice dzogchen without doing yidam practice or preliminaries?

There are specific Dzogchen preliminaries, which are indispensable,

got it! Updating.....

1. Example 1. Nyiondro. 2. Tsa lung /inside the section there is Guru yoga and yidam practice/. 3. Dzogchen
2 Example 1. Nyiondro 2. Guru, Yidam, Dakini 3. Dzogchen
3. Example Nyiondro 2. Chod 3. Dzogchen.
4. Example 1. Ngondro 2. Dzogchen.

Most Dzogchen teachers introduce Dzogchen teachings immediately, and then assist their students in helping them find the appropriate secondary practices, which might be ngondro, or some yidam, etc.

Just like in HYT. Fourth empowerment, followed by Yidam practice if necessary

The main practice of a Dzogchen practitioner is guru yoga, and that is included in any ngondro. Even Migtsema can be a Dzogchen practice, if one understands the principle of the three vajras and their relationship to the three family protectors.

The Heart of HYT is guru yoga as well. I dont see why picking one's nose should not be a practice of dzogchen or HYT, with the right understanding ....

After all, the very first text, after his namthar, in the Lhasa edition of Tsongkhapa's collected works is a Dzogchen text.

Isn't that lovely? Of course, neither work is actual a work of JTK, but still very interesting

[Malcolm]

4. Example 1. Ngondro 2. Dzogchen.

It does not involve any yidam practice at all. Neither does Dzogchen guru yoga, necessarily, unless you consider ཨ a yidam.

The two stages are not part of the path of Dzogchen, yidams are practiced primarily to remove obstacles and so on.

[cloudburst]

4. Example 1. Ngondro 2. Dzogchen.

It does not involve any yidam practice at all. Neither does Dzogchen guru yoga, necessarily, unless you consider ཨ a yidam.

I never said it did

The two stages are not part of the path of Dzogchen, yidams are practiced primarily to remove obstacles and so on.

What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

[PeterC]

The two stages are not part of the path of Dzogchen, yidams are practiced primarily to remove obstacles and so on.

What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

Tibetans like doing yidam practice so at some point many people will end up doing it even if their main practice is Dzogchen. But it really doesn’t matter, as the practice of the two stages is not Dzogchen, it’s a different path. But this topic has been discussed to death in other threads here.

[Malcolm]

What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

How can I possibly answer such a question? I don't know all people who call themselves Dzogchen practitioners.

[cloudburst]

What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

How can I possibly answer such a question? I don't know all people who call themselves Dzogchen practitioners.

no one was asking for accuracy, just "what percentage do you think?"

Maybe it's easier if I ask:
How many of the great dzogchen practioners of the past never engaged in the two stages?

[cloudburst]

The two stages are not part of the path of Dzogchen, yidams are practiced primarily to remove obstacles and so on.

What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

Tibetans like doing yidam practice so at some point many people will end up doing it even if their main practice is Dzogchen. But it really doesn’t matter, as the practice of the two stages is not Dzogchen, it’s a different path. But this topic has been discussed to death in other threads here.

Hi Peter

when you say "tibetans like doing yidam practice" it feels like you are trying to pass it off as some cultural diversion, like a national pastime.
Are you suggesting lamas like Jigme Lingpa or Patrul Rinpoche spent years on the two stages out of cultural habit?

the practice of the two stages is not Dzogchen

Is it a common thing to be able to practice dzogchen without engaging in the two stages?

this topic has been discussed to death in other threads here.

If the topic bores you I'm sure there are other threads you could comment on

[Malcolm]

Is it a common thing to be able to practice dzogchen without engaging in the two stages?

Yes. It is not our path. Personally, I did not come up that way, having done a three year retreat on Lamdre, etc. Many people do not meet proper Dzogchen teachings until quite well into their path, so you will find many people with experience in the two stages who practice Dzogchen, but the path of transformation and the path of self-liberation are completely distinct. And when they finally meet the Dzogchen path, they usually give up practicing the two stages, other than for prophylactic reasons such as long life practice, sang offerings, protectors, etc., practices that deal with our adventitious karma conditions.

As I mentioned before, guru yoga is the main relative practice of Dzogchen teachings.

[PeterC]

the practice of the two stages is not Dzogchen

Is it a common thing to be able to practice dzogchen without engaging in the two stages?

Literally anyone could. Dzogchen as a path is complete in itself and does not rely on the two stages.

this topic has been discussed to death in other threads here.

If the topic bores you I'm sure there are other threads you could comment on

I’m pointing out that you should take the time to read other threads before reopening old discussions.

[Kai lord]

What percentage of Dzogchen practitioners do you think end up engaging in two stages practice?

How can I possibly answer such a question? I don't know all people who call themselves Dzogchen practitioners.

How many of the great dzogchen practioners of the past never engaged in the two stages?

We can speculate about that. Like twelve Buddhas of dzogchen, Garab dorje, Shri Singha, Jñanasutra, Vimalamitra, Vairotsana, etc. Here are the names straight off from my head. Feel free to add to the list......

[cloudburst]

Is it a common thing to be able to practice dzogchen without engaging in the two stages?

Yes. It is not our path. Personally, I did not come up that way, having done a three year retreat on Lamdre, etc. Many people do not meet proper Dzogchen teachings until quite well into their path, so you will find many people with experience in the two stages who practice Dzogchen, but the path of transformation and the path of self-liberation are completely distinct. And when they finally meet the Dzogchen path, they usually give up practicing the two stages, other than for prophylactic reasons such as long life practice, sang offerings, protectors, etc., practices that deal with our adventitious karma conditions.

As I mentioned before, guru yoga is the main relative practice of Dzogchen teachings.

I think there is a certain strain of dzogchen triumphalism that is disingenuous. It is not true that these masters, such as Jigme Lingpa and Patrul Rinpoche, dropped their two stages practice other than for long life practice etc. They focused on it for years, simultaneous with their practice of Dzogchen. Jigme Lingpa's retreat schedule involved togal and generation stage and in fact he did more sessions of the latter.

most of the Nyinthig practices are majority two stages sadhanas

Of course it would be possible not to do two stages, this is also possible in mahamudra, but the type of person who can do this is vanishingly rare. It looks like selling dzogchen as its own path that is so high you dont need to engage in "lesser practices" excites a certain kind of person who hopes for quick results without doing the basic work that would allow these higher paths to function. There is the odd chigchar that you hear about in history,
but everyone else pratices everything, from moral discipline to the final stages

[yagmort]

there is the topic on dzogchen without deity yoga/two stages
as far as i get it from the practical standpoint, i think we can safely say for the average practitioner it is not really possible to practice dzogchen without some sort of sadhana/deity yoga/2 stages. Gangteng Tulku can teach dzogchen proper straight after ngöndro, perhaps it is possible to do something similar in Mindrollling tradition since Ati Zabdön Nyingpo doesn't have any deity yoga/2 stages, but otherwise it seems inevitable to do some sort of sadhana before dzogchen for an average joe. not to say it is a bad thing, but it is how it is.

[Malcolm]

most of the Nyinthig practices are majority two stages sadhanas

Nyinthig, such as Longchen Nyinthig, became a fashionable name in Nyingma for Mahā/Anu yoga cycles which also have some Dzogchen teachings . However, the whole of the Vima Nyinthig, there isn't a single deity practice, not one. That cycle is the original "Nyinthig." The along came the Khandro Nyinthig, which indeed has anuyoga pratices. However. its clearly stated in this cycle that Dzogchen practitioners do not meditate on deities, we merely think we are the deity, and that is sufficient.

Of course it would be possible not to do two stages, this is also possible in mahamudra, but the type of person who can do this is vanishingly rare. It looks like selling dzogchen as its own path that is so high you dont need to engage in "lesser practices" excites a certain kind of person who hopes for quick results without doing the basic work that would allow these higher paths to function.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Anyway, I am supposed to believe you, someone who does not even practice Dzogchen as far as we know, since you are Geluk practitioner, or my Gurus, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, etc? What do you think?

[Norwegian]

I think there is a certain strain of dzogchen triumphalism that is disingenuous.

I don't think you quite understand what is said in Dzogchen, and why these things are said.

Of course it would be possible not to do two stages, this is also possible in mahamudra, but the type of person who can do this is vanishingly rare.

Not really. Anybody who have a fortunate connection with Dzogchen, and receives it, can do this. It depends on them as a student and on their teacher, and then what teachings and instructions they have received and how they should practice. That's all there is to it.

It looks like selling dzogchen as its own path that is so high you dont need to engage in "lesser practices" excites a certain kind of person who hopes for quick results without doing the basic work that would allow these higher paths to function.

This is a mistaken view, one refuted in Dzogchen. There are three paths in Buddhadharma, that of Sutra, which is the path of renunciation, that of Tantra, which is the path of transformation, and that of Dzogchen, which is the path of self-liberation. These are three complete paths on their own which are not dependent on the other. One can practice Sutra only, Tantra only, and Dzogchen only. There is no fault in doing so whatsoever. It is a total mistake and a fault however, to think that Dzogchen cannot work if you don't engage in say practice of Sutra and/or Tantra first, or in tandem with Dzogchen practice.

As Rogben said about the practice and path of Dzogchen:

"With methods numbering in the hundreds and thousands,
Whichever one you practice generates the nonconceptual state."

Further, there are also instructions outlining the clear superiority of specific practices in Dzogchen.

If you haven't received Dzogchen and don't have faith in Dzogchen, hearing such things may likely cause you discomfort and unease.

There is the odd chigchar that you hear about in history, but everyone else pratices everything, from moral discipline to the final stages

Practicing only Dzogchen does not mean that you're a chigcharwa at all, and to think so is an error. This idea that Dzogchen is not a standalone path, that it somehow lacks something which Sutra or Tantra has, and that Dzogchen does not, and that Dzogchen on its own is inferior, weak, insufficient, etc. is actually a heretical view and it amounts to denigrating the teachings.

Your comments are simply a result of you not knowing Dzogchen very well. At all.

Also, all of this has been discussed ad nauseam before in numerous threads here. Just click on some of them and read them.