Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

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cyril
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Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

Those familiar with the works of Dr. Ian Stevenson will probably recall several cases where the presumed previous incarnation died less than 9 months prior to the birth of the subject in question. From The European Cases of the Reincarnation Type:
- Marja Liisa Kaartinen - her previous reincarnation died 6 months prior to her birth
- Wolfgang Neurath - previous reincarnation died 2 months prior to his birth
- Einar Johnson - presumed previous reincarnation died 2 weeks prior to his birth
There was also a similar case in Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation but I don't have that book with me now so I cannot point which one.
How are we to square such cases with the Buddhist model where the bardo being sees its future parents engaged in intercourse and feels attraction/ aversion which propells it into its next reincarnation?

Also, in the 20 Cases book, there is the curious case of Jasbir, where the reincarnation occurs three and a half years after the subject's birth.
https://cdn5-ss7.sharpschool.com/UserFi ... Jasbir.pdf
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

All reincarnation data is purely anecdotal, even the really convincing stories. It could easily all be bullshit, even the Buddhist stuff.
Until, as part of an independent study, someone leaves VERY specific details about where they will be born, or leaves a specific item to be found, and a few years after their passing, some child starts talking about it and this is all documented by disinterested third parties, there will never be a way to “prove” rebirth, even if a million people are thoroughly convinced.
As Carl Sagan said, “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”.
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Nosta
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Nosta »

cyril wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:26 pm Those familiar with the works of Dr. Ian Stevenson will probably recall several cases where the presumed previous incarnation died less than 9 months prior to the birth of the subject in question. From The European Cases of the Reincarnation Type:
- Marja Liisa Kaartinen - her previous reincarnation died 6 months prior to her birth
- Wolfgang Neurath - previous reincarnation died 2 months prior to his birth
- Einar Johnson - presumed previous reincarnation died 2 weeks prior to his birth
There was also a similar case in Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation but I don't have that book with me now so I cannot point which one.
How are we to square such cases with the Buddhist model where the bardo being sees its future parents engaged in intercourse and feels attraction/ aversion which propells it into its next reincarnation?

Also, in the 20 Cases book, there is the curious case of Jasbir, where the reincarnation occurs three and a half years after the subject's birth.
https://cdn5-ss7.sharpschool.com/UserFi ... Jasbir.pdf
Thoughts?

Hi! I have the same questions too. For coincidence I created a thread some days before you. Look here:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=40655
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cyril
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:06 pm All reincarnation data is purely anecdotal, even the really convincing stories. It could easily all be bullshit, even the Buddhist stuff.
Until, as part of an independent study, someone leaves VERY specific details about where they will be born, or leaves a specific item to be found, and a few years after their passing, some child starts talking about it and this is all documented by disinterested third parties, there will never be a way to “prove” rebirth, even if a million people are thoroughly convinced.
As Carl Sagan said, “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”.
Well, there are such cases documented by Dr. Stevenson. A child, thought to be the reincarnation of an older sibling who had died a couple of years before, asking for a specific toy which the father had promised the previous reincarnation prior to her death. A girl announcing she would come back as a boy in the neighboring family. And so on...But even such evidence is also anecdotal. Hell, even the account of the Buddha recalling all his previous births is anecdotal, yet most folks frequenting this board probably take that at face value. That "extraordinary" in Carl Sagan's quote is a pretty subjective term after all.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tao »

Some fetus die inside his mother, some babies die very young, with months of age.

So if you find a long interval, maybe there's a intermediate life that didnt succeed. And that can hardly have any memories.

So there're possible reasons.

Said that, I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Aemilius »

cyril wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:26 pm Those familiar with the works of Dr. Ian Stevenson will probably recall several cases where the presumed previous incarnation died less than 9 months prior to the birth of the subject in question. From The European Cases of the Reincarnation Type:
- Marja Liisa Kaartinen - her previous reincarnation died 6 months prior to her birth
- Wolfgang Neurath - previous reincarnation died 2 months prior to his birth
- Einar Johnson - presumed previous reincarnation died 2 weeks prior to his birth
There was also a similar case in Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation but I don't have that book with me now so I cannot point which one.
How are we to square such cases with the Buddhist model where the bardo being sees its future parents engaged in intercourse and feels attraction/ aversion which propells it into its next reincarnation?

Also, in the 20 Cases book, there is the curious case of Jasbir, where the reincarnation occurs three and a half years after the subject's birth.
https://cdn5-ss7.sharpschool.com/UserFi ... Jasbir.pdf
Thoughts?
I have thought about this in the past. The answer lies in the fact that consciousness is a heap/skandha in a literal sense. But some years ago people became furious over this view. They were so attached to the view that their consciousness is "one", which it isn't.
The same thing happens in the end phase of life. The heap of consciousnesses leaves the body gradually over several years.
The skandha of consciousness consists of many consciousnesses. You are a heap of personalities/persons.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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cyril
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am Some fetus die inside his mother, some babies die very young, with months of age.

So if you find a long interval, maybe there's a intermediate life that didnt succeed. And that can hardly have any memories.

So there're possible reasons.

Said that, I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
The issue here is that, according to the Buddhist teachings, there should be an interval of at least nine months between the death of the previous human incarnation and the birth of the new one, or at least 7 months for infants born preterm; however, in some of the cases investigated by Dr. Stevenson, this time frame appears to be way shorter. I read your post several times but I still don’t understand how it addresses the issue in question. You mean the baby dies inside the womb and then is revived by a new reincarnated consciousness or something like that?
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Giovanni
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Giovanni »

Stevensons methodology was dismissed even by scientists with a Buddhist belief system.
They are pseudo science and should be discounted from any serious discussion of the actual Dharmic concept of Rebirth.
They are more akin to populist “Hindu” beliefs.
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cyril
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:24 am

I have thought about this in the past. The answer lies in the fact that consciousness is a heap/skandha in a literal sense. But some years ago people became furious over this view. They were so attached to the view that their consciousness is "one", which it isn't.
The same thing happens in the end phase of life. The heap of consciousnesses leaves the body gradually over several years.
The skandha of consciousness consists of many consciousnesses. You are a heap of personalities/persons.
According to the teachings, the conception occurs due three simultaneous conditions: coitus of the parents, the mother being in season and the gandhabba or the bardo being being present. So, at this point, the ganddhabba is already a distinct entity which no longer has anything to do with how suddenly or gradually the consciousness leaves the body. Now, if the gandhabba must be present at conception, the event which gave rise to gandhabba (the death of he previous incarnation) must have occurred even earlier. If such death occurred later, like those cases suggest, it means there was no gandhabba at conception which contradicts the whole model.
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Nosta »

For moderation team: if it makes any sense, I would suggest the merge of this topic with my topic here:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=40655

I think that the debate is very similar, but this is just a suggestion.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Giovanni »

Given the fact that I have never seen a serious Dharma student cite Stevenson’s work the thread seems to be something of a “man of straw.”
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

cyril wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:45 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:06 pm All reincarnation data is purely anecdotal, even the really convincing stories. It could easily all be bullshit, even the Buddhist stuff.
Until, as part of an independent study, someone leaves VERY specific details about where they will be born, or leaves a specific item to be found, and a few years after their passing, some child starts talking about it and this is all documented by disinterested third parties, there will never be a way to “prove” rebirth, even if a million people are thoroughly convinced.
As Carl Sagan said, “extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence”.
Well, there are such cases documented by Dr. Stevenson. A child, thought to be the reincarnation of an older sibling who had died a couple of years before, asking for a specific toy which the father had promised the previous reincarnation prior to her death. A girl announcing she would come back as a boy in the neighboring family. And so on...But even such evidence is also anecdotal. Hell, even the account of the Buddha recalling all his previous births is anecdotal, yet most folks frequenting this board probably take that at face value. That "extraordinary" in Carl Sagan's quote is a pretty subjective term after all.
Yes, and the thing is, this is all anecdotal meaning that according to someone, somebody said something. There’s no direct independent and unbiased observation. So, there’s all kinds of room for hoaxes or prompting or even rehearsing a child. And while this is perhaps unlikely (or maybe not unlikely if you have something to gain by having your kid declared to be a tulku), it is still a more plausible explanation than reincarnation, simply because it can be explained and reincarnation can’t be (yet). That’s why extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I personally think that a logical theory for temoving the reasons why the process by which something such as rebirth. can’t happen is easily constructed. But that doesn’t mean individual cases can be proven.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Aemilius »

cyril wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:53 am
Aemilius wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:24 am

I have thought about this in the past. The answer lies in the fact that consciousness is a heap/skandha in a literal sense. But some years ago people became furious over this view. They were so attached to the view that their consciousness is "one", which it isn't.
The same thing happens in the end phase of life. The heap of consciousnesses leaves the body gradually over several years.
The skandha of consciousness consists of many consciousnesses. You are a heap of personalities/persons.
According to the teachings, the conception occurs due three simultaneous conditions: coitus of the parents, the mother being in season and the gandhabba or the bardo being being present. So, at this point, the ganddhabba is already a distinct entity which no longer has anything to do with how suddenly or gradually the consciousness leaves the body. Now, if the gandhabba must be present at conception, the event which gave rise to gandhabba (the death of he previous incarnation) must have occurred even earlier. If such death occurred later, like those cases suggest, it means there was no gandhabba at conception which contradicts the whole model.
It does not contradict the model. The model is a general teaching, but there are always more details and exceptions, that can not be told in general teachings. The idea of a bundle of selves is an old one, see here: Chapter 7: Egos, bundles, and multiple selves http://www.wutsamada.com/phlmind/Blackmore7.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Tenma »

Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am Some fetus die inside his mother, some babies die very young, with months of age.

So if you find a long interval, maybe there's a intermediate life that didnt succeed. And that can hardly have any memories.

So there're possible reasons.

Said that, I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
What if one's reborn as an ant, an unconscious jellyfish, a polyp, a butterfly, etc.? Also, how much merit is needed to even have the chance of another human rebirth?
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tenma wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:57 pm
Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am Some fetus die inside his mother, some babies die very young, with months of age.

So if you find a long interval, maybe there's a intermediate life that didnt succeed. And that can hardly have any memories.

So there're possible reasons.

Said that, I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
What if one's reborn as an ant, an unconscious jellyfish, a polyp, a butterfly, etc.? Also, how much merit is needed to even have the chance of another human rebirth?
The merit can reflect actions in other previous lifetimes other than the immediately preceding g one
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
I have yet to meet someone whose disbelief in rebirth isn’t ultimately a disbelief in the rebirth of some kind of self (which is not what Buddhism teaches anyway).
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Malcolm »

Tao wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:45 am
Said that, I dont belive in rebirth at all, but you have one explanation.
:rolling:
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

Giovanni wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:46 am Stevensons methodology was dismissed even by scientists with a Buddhist belief system.
They are pseudo science and should be discounted from any serious discussion of the actual Dharmic concept of Rebirth.
They are more akin to populist “Hindu” beliefs.
Can you point to a link or something with the criticism of those scientists with Buddhist beliefs? Did they come with arguments pertaining to the Buddhist doctrine or just the same stuff as their non-Buddhist colleagues?
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by cyril »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:26 pm

Yes, and the thing is, this is all anecdotal meaning that according to someone, somebody said something. There’s no direct independent and unbiased observation. So, there’s all kinds of room for hoaxes or prompting or even rehearsing a child. And while this is perhaps unlikely (or maybe not unlikely if you have something to gain by having your kid declared to be a tulku), it is still a more plausible explanation than reincarnation, simply because it can be explained and reincarnation can’t be (yet). That’s why extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I personally think that a logical theory for temoving the reasons why the process by which something such as rebirth. can’t happen is easily constructed. But that doesn’t mean individual cases can be proven.
Well, criminal investigation uses cross-interrogation a lot and it usually works. Anecdotal information is gathered, assessed and matched against the hard facts available. Stevenson's methodology follows the same pattern. He assesses the potential for fraud, bias and the alternative avenues the child in question could have got that information from. If a child's statements cannot be compared with the details in the life of the presumed former incarnation, the case is held to be weak. The more of the child's statements coincide with such details, the harder the case. But even in his strongest cases, Stevenson never concluded that was the definite proof of reincarnation. Reincarnation is just thought to be a possible explaination. Other explaination would be that the child simply got those memories via a mechanism yet unknown. Now, this being a Buddhist forum, I thought people would give more weight to the former one; talking about personal bias....
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Re: Reincarnation cases not following the Buddhist model

Post by Giovanni »

cyril wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:16 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:46 am Stevensons methodology was dismissed even by scientists with a Buddhist belief system.
They are pseudo science and should be discounted from any serious discussion of the actual Dharmic concept of Rebirth.
They are more akin to populist “Hindu” beliefs.
Can you point to a link or something with the criticism of those scientists with Buddhist beliefs? Did they come with arguments pertaining to the Buddhist doctrine or just the same stuff as their non-Buddhist colleagues?
Just a little knowledge of the actual Buddhist doctrine of Purnabhava will be enough to show that Stevensons anecdotes have nothing to do with it. They are the stuff of Hollywood or Sai Baba devotees. I could find the references but I sense that is not really what you want.
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