The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
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The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
Something I have been thinking recently is that in order to really understand Buddhism in any substantive way, one would need to be at least somewhat familiar with the original languages or at least the languages related to one's tradition. For example, some familiarity with Pali/Sanskrit, Tibetan, classical Chinese, Sino-Japanese etc., and really trying to understand the ancient texts to some extent in their original languages. There are many fine translations into English and other languages. Nevertheless, when some people in the west who are considered as experts on Buddhism, yet haven't even made an effort to learn the language of the Sutras and other ancient texts, it's hard for me to take their "expertise" seriously. Not that the practise of Buddhism requires linguistic ability, but certainly it would seem that being considered an expert in the field would require at least some mastery of the original languages of Buddhism.
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on this?
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
"To really understand Buddhism in any substantive way," as you say, requires direct perception. Direct perception of emptiness, etc. do not depend on linguistic skills. Everything else is intellectual, conceptual understanding.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
It’s important that people do that. But not everyone has to do that or can do that. Supporting the work of knowledgeable translators so that their translations can be of benefit is probably a better use of one’s resources.
Having said that, Hindi is not a terribly difficult language to learn (I’m currently learning Nepali but for different reasons) and it is very close to Sanskrit, and would be helpful to some extent.
Having said that, Hindi is not a terribly difficult language to learn (I’m currently learning Nepali but for different reasons) and it is very close to Sanskrit, and would be helpful to some extent.
EMPTIFUL.
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An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
There have been realized persons who were completely illiterate.
As far academic and/or deep text study, then sure things like etymology and good understanding of Dharma vocabulary in a given language is important.
Striving to be “expert on Buddhism” as a subject and striving towards realizing the Dharma are not the same thing at all, though sure they can and do overlap..
Intellectual knowledge is important up to a point of course, but one can "understand Buddhism", and then one can actually practice Dharma, the difference isn’t trivial. To use an analogy, being a cartographer is not the same as being a traveler, though they are both important, and the two need each other for successful journeys to happen.
That said, supporting people who choose to learn these languages and engage in this way is really important for the continuity of the teachings.
I think you need to define “understand Buddhism in a substantive way” though.
Similarly, if you want to object to “ Western experts on Buddhism” who you believe are not, that probably needs further unpacking.
As far academic and/or deep text study, then sure things like etymology and good understanding of Dharma vocabulary in a given language is important.
Striving to be “expert on Buddhism” as a subject and striving towards realizing the Dharma are not the same thing at all, though sure they can and do overlap..
Intellectual knowledge is important up to a point of course, but one can "understand Buddhism", and then one can actually practice Dharma, the difference isn’t trivial. To use an analogy, being a cartographer is not the same as being a traveler, though they are both important, and the two need each other for successful journeys to happen.
That said, supporting people who choose to learn these languages and engage in this way is really important for the continuity of the teachings.
I think you need to define “understand Buddhism in a substantive way” though.
Similarly, if you want to object to “ Western experts on Buddhism” who you believe are not, that probably needs further unpacking.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
I think learning a language through which practitioners have expressed understanding is helpful for sure. But not because there is something intrinsic to those languages in terms of dharma, but because people speaking those languages have gained insight and worked out linguistic conventions that approximate well the experiences, and utilizing the conventions in those languages to express bodhi.
We'll get there with English and other languages. We are part of that process. The best thing we can do to make English a dharma language is to be a native English speaker who wakes up.
We'll get there with English and other languages. We are part of that process. The best thing we can do to make English a dharma language is to be a native English speaker who wakes up.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
You require very little philosophical/academic knowledge to be a practitioner. Of course it helps but what really matters is practice and realization.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
Literally nobody who would be considered an expert does not know at least one Dharma language. Who do you think fits this description?yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:49 am Nevertheless, when some people in the west who are considered as experts on Buddhism, yet haven't even made an effort to learn the language of the Sutras and other ancient texts, it's hard for me to take their "expertise" seriously.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
Naturally, the western "experts" on Buddhism get very sensitive if one calls them out on this. No, not my feelings nor beliefs, by all means they may well all be experts despite their lack of any knowledge of the original languages. After all, the whole point of arrogant white dudes coming to Asia and telling us what Buddhism "really means" depends on us not questioning this, they make a lot of money from their expertise.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:13 pm There have been realized persons who were completely illiterate.
As far academic and/or deep text study, then sure things like etymology and good understanding of Dharma vocabulary in a given language is important.
Striving to be “expert on Buddhism” as a subject and striving towards realizing the Dharma are not the same thing at all, though sure they can and do overlap..
Intellectual knowledge is important up to a point of course, but one can "understand Buddhism", and then one can actually practice Dharma, the difference isn’t trivial. To use an analogy, being a cartographer is not the same as being a traveler, though they are both important, and the two need each other for successful journeys to happen.
That said, supporting people who choose to learn these languages and engage in this way is really important for the continuity of the teachings.
I think you need to define “understand Buddhism in a substantive way” though.
Similarly, if you want to object to “ Western experts on Buddhism” who you believe are not, that probably needs further unpacking.
Let's unpack it, you go first.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
Lots of westerners who have written books on Buddhism haven't any background in ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, ancient Chinese, probably most of the authors of books on Buddhism would fit this description.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:21 am You require very little philosophical/academic knowledge to be a practitioner. Of course it helps but what really matters is practice and realization.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
Literally nobody who would be considered an expert does not know at least one Dharma language. Who do you think fits this description?yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:49 am Nevertheless, when some people in the west who are considered as experts on Buddhism, yet haven't even made an effort to learn the language of the Sutras and other ancient texts, it's hard for me to take their "expertise" seriously.
Yes, true, most westerners who have written books on Buddhism are most certainly not "experts" for this reason, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not scholars, not experts in any way.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
If they had authentic teachers who well communicated the Dharma, and have realization, that is much more important...at least in terms of their quality as teachers themselves. From my observations many such people get some knowledge of said languages simply through immersion, however.yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:03 amLots of westerners who have written books on Buddhism haven't any background in ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, ancient Chinese, probably most of the authors of books on Buddhism would fit this description.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:21 am You require very little philosophical/academic knowledge to be a practitioner. Of course it helps but what really matters is practice and realization.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
Literally nobody who would be considered an expert does not know at least one Dharma language. Who do you think fits this description?yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:49 am Nevertheless, when some people in the west who are considered as experts on Buddhism, yet haven't even made an effort to learn the language of the Sutras and other ancient texts, it's hard for me to take their "expertise" seriously.
Like everyone is saying, scholar, expert doesn't necessarily say anything about qualifications in terms of Dharma.Yes, true, most westerners who have written books on Buddhism are most certainly not "experts" for this reason, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not scholars, not experts in any way.
It's pretty silly to throw this out multiple times without examples though, can you please provide one?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:03 amLots of westerners who have written books on Buddhism haven't any background in ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, ancient Chinese, probably most of the authors of books on Buddhism would fit this description.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:21 am You require very little philosophical/academic knowledge to be a practitioner. Of course it helps but what really matters is practice and realization.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
Literally nobody who would be considered an expert does not know at least one Dharma language. Who do you think fits this description?yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:49 am Nevertheless, when some people in the west who are considered as experts on Buddhism, yet haven't even made an effort to learn the language of the Sutras and other ancient texts, it's hard for me to take their "expertise" seriously.
Yes, true, most westerners who have written books on Buddhism are most certainly not "experts" for this reason, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not scholars, not experts in any way.
True, practice doesn't require linguistic ability. Actual knowledge of Buddhism, perhaps.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
What exactly is "knowledge of Buddhism" you are talking about here? You really need to be less vague to keep this thread productive.yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:06 amyokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:03 amLots of westerners who have written books on Buddhism haven't any background in ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, ancient Chinese, probably most of the authors of books on Buddhism would fit this description.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:21 am You require very little philosophical/academic knowledge to be a practitioner. Of course it helps but what really matters is practice and realization.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
Literally nobody who would be considered an expert does not know at least one Dharma language. Who do you think fits this description?
Yes, true, most westerners who have written books on Buddhism are most certainly not "experts" for this reason, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not scholars, not experts in any way.
True, practice doesn't require linguistic ability. Actual knowledge of Buddhism, perhaps.
Please be specific about your claims and terms.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
[/quote]Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:06 amIf they had authentic teachers who well communicated the Dharma, and have realization, that is much more important...at least in terms of their quality as teachers themselves.yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:03 amLots of westerners who have written books on Buddhism haven't any background in ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, ancient Chinese, probably most of the authors of books on Buddhism would fit this description.PeterC wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:21 am You require very little philosophical/academic knowledge to be a practitioner. Of course it helps but what really matters is practice and realization.
As a practitioner one does need a certain about of vocabulary whether or not you learn a language. There are technical terms in every school which are simply inefficient to translate.
For the survival and spread of the Dharma, translators are absolutely essential. And they need to be translator/practitioners, so that they’re not just working on texts in a vacuum.
Literally nobody who would be considered an expert does not know at least one Dharma language. Who do you think fits this description?Like everyone is saying, scholar, expert doesn't necessarily say anything about qualifications in terms of Dharma.Yes, true, most westerners who have written books on Buddhism are most certainly not "experts" for this reason, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not scholars, not experts in any way.
It's pretty silly to throw this out multiple times without examples though, can you please provide one?
I'm a silly person with nothing of value to add. I am a person of low intelligence, silly and people can disrespect me. No ego. It reflects on them, not self.
True, scholarship and expertise has nothing to do with qualifications in terms of Dharma. Everyone is an expert. Languages are of no value. Sorry, yes, I stand corrected.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
No, it's your thread and you need to be more specific.yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:59 amNaturally, the western "experts" on Buddhism get very sensitive if one calls them out on this. No, not my feelings nor beliefs, by all means they may well all be experts despite their lack of any knowledge of the original languages. After all, the whole point of arrogant white dudes coming to Asia and telling us what Buddhism "really means" depends on us not questioning this, they make a lot of money from their expertise.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:13 pm There have been realized persons who were completely illiterate.
As far academic and/or deep text study, then sure things like etymology and good understanding of Dharma vocabulary in a given language is important.
Striving to be “expert on Buddhism” as a subject and striving towards realizing the Dharma are not the same thing at all, though sure they can and do overlap..
Intellectual knowledge is important up to a point of course, but one can "understand Buddhism", and then one can actually practice Dharma, the difference isn’t trivial. To use an analogy, being a cartographer is not the same as being a traveler, though they are both important, and the two need each other for successful journeys to happen.
That said, supporting people who choose to learn these languages and engage in this way is really important for the continuity of the teachings.
I think you need to define “understand Buddhism in a substantive way” though.
Similarly, if you want to object to “ Western experts on Buddhism” who you believe are not, that probably needs further unpacking.
Let's unpack it, you go first.
I hope that comment doesn't mean that you think I view myself as an "expert on Buddhism", I most definitely don't, and most definitely am not, in any way. I am a nobody practitioner with very limited academic knowledge, some beginner level experience, but I have been fortunate enough to have good teachers.
So no, I have no sensitivity on the subject at all, but If you refuse to get specific on the subject the thread is pointless and circular, so please do so if you want it to stay open.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
True, the expression of "knowledge of Buddhism" has no meaning. There is no such thing as scholarship nor expertise in Buddhism, this is an entirely vague term.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:10 amWhat exactly is "knowledge of Buddhism" you are talking about here? You really need to be less vague to keep this thread productive.yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:06 amyokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:03 am
Lots of westerners who have written books on Buddhism haven't any background in ancient languages, Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, ancient Chinese, probably most of the authors of books on Buddhism would fit this description.
Yes, true, most westerners who have written books on Buddhism are most certainly not "experts" for this reason, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Not scholars, not experts in any way.
True, practice doesn't require linguistic ability. Actual knowledge of Buddhism, perhaps.
Please be specific about your claims and terms.
This thread cannot be productive because the original question has no value. Please disregard. Hahaha yes, I can understand why this question might strike a sensitive nerve on DW. Expertise and academic knowledge is very vague and ephemeral. It has no meaning.
Admittedly, Dharma practice doesn't require any academic knowledge, look at some famous teachers who couldn't read, yet they had very high attainments.
Sorry, I won't bring this up again.
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
Yeah, no one said any of that, that's a straw man.yokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:11 am
I'm a silly person with nothing of value to add. I am a person of low intelligence, silly and people can disrespect me. No ego. It reflects on them, not self.
True, scholarship and expertise has nothing to do with qualifications in terms of Dharma. Everyone is an expert. Languages are of no value. Sorry, yes, I stand corrected.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The importance of learning languages related to Buddhism if one is able
Seems kinda juvenile, but ok. I will lock the thread, anyone can PM me if they want it opened again, or wants to seriously engage the questionyokosukasailorboy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:16 amTrue, the expression of "knowledge of Buddhism" has no meaning. There is no such thing as scholarship nor expertise in Buddhism, this is an entirely vague term.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:10 amWhat exactly is "knowledge of Buddhism" you are talking about here? You really need to be less vague to keep this thread productive.
Please be specific about your claims and terms.
This thread cannot be productive because the original question has no value. Please disregard. Hahaha yes, I can understand why this question might strike a sensitive nerve on DW. Expertise and academic knowledge is very vague and ephemeral. It has no meaning.
Admittedly, Dharma practice doesn't require any academic knowledge, look at some famous teachers who couldn't read, yet they had very high attainments.
Sorry, I won't bring this up again.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama