A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

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Queequeg
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Queequeg »

There are many anthologies out there. Interesting that no one has mentioned any of those - these tend to be books intended as textbooks for college intro to Buddhism courses. Looking at my book shelf

The Experience of Buddhism, Strong
The Story of Buddhism, Lopez
The Buddhist Tradition, de Bary
Buddhist Mahayana Texts, Cowell
Buddhist Scriptures, Conze

I'm not sure an anthology of passages would be practical.

I think you have to start with, what is Mahayana? What voice is one assuming? Who is the audience? What is the story you are telling?

I don't think organizing around the life arc of the historical Buddha is particularly useful for conveying the spirit of Mahayana, least of all because Mahayana is only loosely based on the historical Buddha. It would need to be made clear at the beginning that Mahayana is to an extent a reaction against what we call Hinayana. Moreover, if presenting to a modern audience, I don't think the biography of the cosmic buddha would be all that compelling.

Rather I would suggest that Mahayana starts and ends with bodhicitta. And as far as I know, this is affirmed by every strain of Mahayana tradition. Between those two brackets you could have a bio of the Buddha, a brief history of the Mahayana movement, and then move on to teachings on compassion, dependent arising, emptiness, Buddha-nature, practice, etc. etc.

As for the voice - I would think it should be the voice of a teacher speaking to their student. It should have that intimacy, kindness, and care for the other. There should be an underlying tenor that the speaker has the conviction that these are ideas the student should adopt and cultivate for themselves.

2 cents.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Queequeg »

There are many anthologies out there. Interesting that no one has mentioned any of those - these tend to be books intended as textbooks for college intro to Buddhism courses. Looking at my book shelf

The Experience of Buddhism, Strong
The Story of Buddhism, Lopez
The Buddhist Tradition, de Bary
Buddhist Mahayana Texts, Cowell
Buddhist Scriptures, Conze

I'm not sure an anthology of passages would be practical.

I think you have to start with, what is Mahayana? What voice is one assuming? Who is the audience? What is the story you are telling?

I don't think organizing around the life arc of the historical Buddha is particularly useful for conveying the spirit of Mahayana, least of all because Mahayana is only loosely based on the historical Buddha. It would need to be made clear at the beginning that Mahayana is to an extent a reaction against what we call Hinayana. Moreover, if presenting to a modern audience, I don't think the biography of the cosmic buddha would be all that compelling.

Rather I would suggest that Mahayana starts and ends with bodhicitta. And as far as I know, this is affirmed by every strain of Mahayana tradition. Between those two brackets you could have a bio of the Buddha, a brief history of the Mahayana movement, and then move on to teachings on compassion, dependent arising, emptiness, Buddha-nature, practice, etc. etc.

As for the voice - I would think it should be the voice of a teacher speaking to their student. It should have that intimacy, kindness, and care for the other. There should be an underlying tenor that the speaker has the conviction that these are ideas the student should adopt and cultivate for themselves.

2 cents.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Malcolm »

StillJustJames wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:51 pm
"A Buddhist Bible" (edition 2) edited by Dwight Goddard.
Horrible book, full of theosophical, eternalist misconceptions and badly edited translations. Complete waste of money and bandwidth.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Zhen Li »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:08 pm The Experience of Buddhism, Strong
The Story of Buddhism, Lopez
The Buddhist Tradition, de Bary
Buddhist Mahayana Texts, Cowell
Buddhist Scriptures, Conze

I'm not sure an anthology of passages would be practical.

I think you have to start with, what is Mahayana? What voice is one assuming? Who is the audience? What is the story you are telling?
I think the idea is a good one, I mean, "In the Buddha's Words" was a great success as a book. "Buddha-Dharma" is probably burdened by trying to fit everything possible in one book and it's massive and can't be carried around. The organisation and style of Bhikkhu Bodhi, moreover, is consistent and logical, whereas Buddha-Dharma does come off as something both made by a committee and translated from a Japanese simplification (which it is).

Those anthologies (except Cowell's) are really more about giving an overview of the tradition, rather than quoting from sutras. It's kind of like if Bhikkhu Bodhi were quoting from Buddhaghosa and Dhammapāla rather than the Nikāyas.
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:08 pm I don't think organizing around the life arc of the historical Buddha is particularly useful for conveying the spirit of Mahayana, least of all because Mahayana is only loosely based on the historical Buddha. It would need to be made clear at the beginning that Mahayana is to an extent a reaction against what we call Hinayana. Moreover, if presenting to a modern audience, I don't think the biography of the cosmic buddha would be all that compelling.
Well, this is one, secular, perspective. I don't think all Mahāyāna Buddhists agree with this stance, and I don't personally. I think the academic anthologies you mentioned have already filled this kind of niche.

I would just add that I think the main reason this is difficult with Mahāyāna, whereas it isn't for Śrāvakayāna, is that Mahāyāna sūtras are massive, whereas Nikāya and Āgama suttas are usually only a page or two long, with the Digha/Dirgha exceptions.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Queequeg »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:52 pm Well, this is one, secular, perspective. I don't think all Mahāyāna Buddhists agree with this stance, and I don't personally. I think the academic anthologies you mentioned have already filled this kind of niche.
I don't know if my perspective is secular. It is rather unconcerned with the historicity of the Mahayana Buddha which is actually suggested in Mahayana texts like the Lotus explicitly and in the Avatamsaka implicitly. But that's a bit beside the point.

The most important concern is the audience. Is this for Mahayanists? Is this for someone newly approaching Mahayana? I don't know if a Mahayanists needs a text like this; at least the practical value wouldn't balance with the need. For a Mahayanists, there are already curricula to follow. An anthology would follow a particular curricula.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by StillJustJames »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:40 pm
StillJustJames wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:51 pm
"A Buddhist Bible" (edition 2) edited by Dwight Goddard.
Horrible book, full of theosophical, eternalist misconceptions and badly edited translations. Complete waste of money and bandwidth.
And yet, so effective in inspiring thousands to follow the Buddha and learn the Dharma.

I do have to correct you on the “theosophy” assertion, yeah, and the “eternalist” assertion too. Badly edited — also unfair since his states his reasons for doing what he did. You can criticize his desire to make a “reading copy” of the sutras for those who knew nothing about Buddhism though.

Yet, how bad could it be, if Robert A.F. Thurman was initially inspired to follow the Dharma by reading references in Kerouac’s writing to it?
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:18 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:52 pm Well, this is one, secular, perspective. I don't think all Mahāyāna Buddhists agree with this stance, and I don't personally. I think the academic anthologies you mentioned have already filled this kind of niche.
I don't know if my perspective is secular. It is rather unconcerned with the historicity of the Mahayana Buddha which is actually suggested in Mahayana texts like the Lotus explicitly and in the Avatamsaka implicitly. But that's a bit beside the point.

The most important concern is the audience. Is this for Mahayanists? Is this for someone newly approaching Mahayana? I don't know if a Mahayanists needs a text like this; at least the practical value wouldn't balance with the need. For a Mahayanists, there are already curricula to follow. An anthology would follow a particular curricula.
These are all good points, and maybe Javier is best to answer these since it was his question. I'm a Mahayanist but my school doesn't have a curriculum. Nor did the school I was part of before the current one.

Personally, I think there is value in having a text that you go over to review all the essential points.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

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I still have my copy of A Buddhist Bible. It’s the book that got me into Dharma around age 17. It’s really not worth reading by today’s standards, but I’m glad it was around pre-Internet, and available at whatever crappy big bookseller I bought it at.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Queequeg »

Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:30 pm Personally, I think there is value in having a text that you go over to review all the essential points.
Agree. The caveat is, what are the essential points? If our scope is the Mahayana, this is a very diverse group. The point that binds us all I think is Bodhicitta. Beyond that, we all start drifting our own ways.

Assuming there's an idea of the essential points, what are the bounds of comprehensiveness or brevity? For someone well learned, a series of pithy quotes could suffice. For someone with less learning, that's going to be inadequate. One has to determine the right balance.

I suggested above, I think this wheel has been invented already (punny). Shantideva's Bodhisattvacaryavatara is a pretty damn good summary of the Mahayana path.

As you suggest, maybe Javier needs to articulate the particular need that would be addressed by this hypothetical work.

Interesting thought exercise and interesting to read people's ideas about this.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

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By curricula I meant each tradition has their treasured texts that stand out above others, they have ideas that they emphasize over others. I suppose curricula is not quite the right word.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Idk, the Mahayana canon is so vast, and puttin different classes of sutras together- for instance Prajnaparamita and Tathagatagarbha can be very confusing if you are new.

In that sense, (ironically) the Mahayana lends itself more to oral teaching and pithy instruction than purely text-based approaches. Pali material is a lot more thematically homogeneous, and it makes it easier to anthologize.

Personally, when I was first reading sutras/suttas (The Buddhist Bible was all I had to begin with, other than some Theosophy nonsense) I found Mahayana stuff inscrutable, it definitely spoke to me on some level, but I feel like there is more unpacking necessary to understand Mahayana sutras.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Malcolm »

StillJustJames wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:27 pm

I do have to correct you on the “theosophy” assertion, yeah, and the “eternalist” assertion too.
His Universal Mind is pretty adjacent to the Akashic records of Blavatsky. It's understandable, DT Suzuki himself was a member of the Theosophical Society.

https://www.theosophical.org/publicatio ... t-in-japan
Although a Buddhist Mrs. Suzuki never lost her interest in Theosophy and once was head of the T.S. in Japan. She told me that Prof. Suzuki's first gift to her was the "Voice of the Silence" which he wrote her was "pure Mahayana Buddhism." He was a student at Oxford at the time and she was at Columbia University. Mrs. Suzuki was devoted to Dr. Besant and Theosophical notables visiting Japan were always welcome guests....
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:16 pm Idk, the Mahayana canon is so vast, and puttin different classes of sutras together- for instance Prajnaparamita and Tathagatagarbha can be very confusing if you are new.

In that sense, (ironically) the Mahayana lends itself more to oral teaching and pithy instruction than purely text-based approaches. Pali material is a lot more thematically homogeneous, and it makes it easier to anthologize.

Personally, when I was first reading sutras/suttas (The Buddhist Bible was all I had to begin with, other than some Theosophy nonsense) I found Mahayana stuff inscrutable, it definitely spoke to me on some level, but I feel like there is more unpacking necessary there.
I think this is true to a certain point. I got my feet wet in the Mahāyāna first with the Diamond Sutra, but couldn't have really got there without some good commentaries, and then getting closely acquainted with the Aṣṭasāhasrika was not such a big deal. After you get your foot in the door, the rest sort of comes together naturally (I see this as jinen honi, naturalness).

Just going off Buddha-Dharma as a starting point, maybe extracting the Śrāvakayāna stuff, one could probably shorten it by making it focus only on the Mahāyāna. The chart of sources at the end (p. 766) is a pretty good jumping off point for that. Mahāyāna selections would be:
  1. Lalitavistara (for the Buddha's life up to awakening)
  2. Avataṃsaka (for the transcendent incidents directly after awakening) including Daśabhūmika
  3. Laṅkāvatāra
  4. Śūraṅgama Sūtra
  5. Avataṃsaka, Gaṇḍavyūha and Bhadracarī
  6. Vajracchedikā
  7. PP Hṛdaya
  8. Mahāprajñāpāramitā - Sadāprarudita and Dharmodgata sections
  9. Avataṃsaka, Vajraketu Bodhisattva section
  10. Vimalakīrtinirdeśa
  11. Rāṣṭrapāla Sūtra
  12. Brāhmajālā Sūtra
  13. Aṅgulimāla Sūtra
  14. More Avataṃsaka selections...
  15. Sukhāvatīvyūha
  16. Śrīmālādevī
  17. Saddharmapuṇḍarīka
  18. Ajātaśatrukaukṛtyavinodana
  19. Amitāyurdhyāna
  20. Mahāparinirvāṇa (section on Ajātaśatru)
  21. Sumatidārika
  22. Suvarṇaprabhāsa
  23. Mahāvairocanābhisaṃbodhi
  24. Mahāparinirvāṇa Sūtra
What makes this possible is that they significantly abbreviate their selections from these sūtras. But this does make it hard to find parallel passages in the source texts.

What is this missing? Personally, I would add the Tathāgataguhya.

Also, there's not a lot of the apotropaic stuff: Pañcarakṣā, Medicine Buddha, Kṣitigarbha, etc. These are daily bread and butter for most Mahāyānists. I think it is proper not to have anything esoteric. Such a book shouldn't have anything you need an initiation to read.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:04 pm
Zhen Li wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:30 pm Personally, I think there is value in having a text that you go over to review all the essential points.
Agree. The caveat is, what are the essential points? If our scope is the Mahayana, this is a very diverse group. The point that binds us all I think is Bodhicitta. Beyond that, we all start drifting our own ways.

Assuming there's an idea of the essential points, what are the bounds of comprehensiveness or brevity? For someone well learned, a series of pithy quotes could suffice. For someone with less learning, that's going to be inadequate. One has to determine the right balance.

I suggested above, I think this wheel has been invented already (punny). Shantideva's Bodhisattvacaryavatara is a pretty damn good summary of the Mahayana path.

As you suggest, maybe Javier needs to articulate the particular need that would be addressed by this hypothetical work.

Interesting thought exercise and interesting to read people's ideas about this.

Such a digest can be easily organized around basis, path, and result, with appropriate readings for each.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Shunyatagarbha »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 pm Such a digest can be easily organized around basis, path, and result, with appropriate readings for each.
In that respect, what would be Mahayana sutra sections you could point to for the "basis" section?
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Shunyatagarbha »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:08 pm The Experience of Buddhism, Strong
The Story of Buddhism, Lopez
The Buddhist Tradition, de Bary
Buddhist Mahayana Texts, Cowell
Buddhist Scriptures, Conze
That just reminded me of the deeply wonderful book by renowned early 20th century classicist and Buddhist scholar Edward (E. J.) Thomas, "The Perfection of Wisdom: The Career of the Predestined Buddhas", originally published in around 1952. It contains some beautifully translated, skillfully selected sections from several important Great Vehicle scriptures. It is not a big nor an exhaustive book but manages to include a lot of powerful material into its pages and is well worth it for anyone looking for that type of thing and it is currently in print and readily available.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_J._Thomas
Last edited by Shunyatagarbha on Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Malcolm »

Shunyatagarbha wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 pm Such a digest can be easily organized around basis, path, and result, with appropriate readings for each.
In that respect, what would be Mahayana sutra sections you could point to for the "basis" section?
Prajnaparamita/tathagatagarbha sutras.
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Queequeg »

I'd be interested in this book, if for anything but what the results would look like. I had a flash of the DW crowd editing such a book. I bet it would be very good. I'm not kidding. If someone were to step up and do the admin based on input from our regulars, it could be pretty great. Bet we could find a publisher. DW sourced Mahayana compendium.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Zhen Li »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:40 pm I'd be interested in this book, if for anything but what the results would look like. I had a flash of the DW crowd editing such a book. I bet it would be very good. I'm not kidding. If someone were to step up and do the admin based on input from our regulars, it could be pretty great. Bet we could find a publisher. DW sourced Mahayana compendium.
Publishing something like that could be a bit complicated since it would involve multiple copyright holders and royalty payees, but would be very interesting...

It might make sense to start off with some kind of google sites with multiple contributers assigned as editors. If it ends up looking good and not the possible dog's breakfast, publishing might be a nice option.

In my experience, online versions of texts/translations are accessed more than print these days (which is why I always make mine available for free), but the latter still has prestige and gets listings in bibliographies.

Agreeing on a structure would also be necessary groundwork. The idea of 1. Basis, 2. Path, and 3. Result sounds interesting.

Besides PP and TG fitting into Basis, is there some kind of clear breakdown of what the aspects of each are?
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Re: A Mahayana version of "In the Buddha's Words"

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:40 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:40 pm I'd be interested in this book, if for anything but what the results would look like. I had a flash of the DW crowd editing such a book. I bet it would be very good. I'm not kidding. If someone were to step up and do the admin based on input from our regulars, it could be pretty great. Bet we could find a publisher. DW sourced Mahayana compendium.
Publishing something like that could be a bit complicated since it would involve multiple copyright holders and royalty payees, but would be very interesting...

It might make sense to start off with some kind of google sites with multiple contributers assigned as editors. If it ends up looking good and not the possible dog's breakfast, publishing might be a nice option.

In my experience, online versions of texts/translations are accessed more than print these days (which is why I always make mine available for free), but the latter still has prestige and gets listings in bibliographies.

Agreeing on a structure would also be necessary groundwork. The idea of 1. Basis, 2. Path, and 3. Result sounds interesting.

Besides PP and TG fitting into Basis, is there some kind of clear breakdown of what the aspects of each are?

The basis represents two things: the basis of purification (skandhas, etc.) as well as the nature of reality, emptiness, suchness, dharmatā; the heart sutras is a perfect example; also readings from Lanka on the three natures, etc., there so many sources.

As for the path, readings on ethics, the six perfections, śamatha and vipaśyāna, pure land,

And for the result, clearly, readings on ten stages, the nature of the two or three kāyas such as the lifespan of the Tathāgata chapter in the Lotus, etc.

Granted, it is a scheme take from the Guhyasamāja Tantra, but it is a useful way to see things.
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