Sub-schools of Kagyu

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Pårl
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Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Pårl »

Hi all

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. What actually are the different sub-schools of Kagyu, and what fundamentally differentiates them?

Thanks!

Pårl.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Knotty Veneer »

Wikipedia is your friend on this one:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kagyu
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Pårl »

Thanks Knotty! Nice name by the way.

Erm. I think I need to ask my Lama exactly which school we are. I haven't got round to that yet. Although I don't think it has made any difference one way or the other thus far for me. Still a novice for sure.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

Drikung Kagyu is one of the minor branches and what is characteristic in the teachings is this obnoxiousness of loving friends and enemies alike, friends for being friends and enemies for being teachers of patience, etc.
An adept of this lineage is supposed to place the enemies as a jewel to the crown of the head.

Then, a very important figure for Drikung lineage is Lord Jigten Sumgon (1143-1217), the founder of the lineage. He has the mind of the Buddha.
I ought to read one of their restricted books, but Malcolm prevented me. It would have taught me moral principles.
The lineage has two heads leading together.
There were maybe no scandals involving Drikung teachers or students.

In one documentary movie on YT there were secret techniques disclosed to the public out of fear that even these may be lost.
Tibet has had many great meditators and I find that practice was more arduous in the absence of the internet, the tv, the iphones and all other distractions of modern life.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Pårl »

Quick follow-on question... Is the Karmapa regarded as the head of just the Karma Kagyu lineage, or all the sub-schools of Kagyu? Googleing on the internet, I'm pretty sure it's just the Karma Kagyu sub-school, but thought I'd check. Always good to get an answer from an actual individual!
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Pårl wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:59 pm Quick follow-on question... Is the Karmapa regarded as the head of just the Karma Kagyu lineage, or all the sub-schools of Kagyu? Googleing on the internet, I'm pretty sure it's just the Karma Kagyu sub-school, but thought I'd check. Always good to get an answer from an actual individual!
Only Karma Kagyu. Other kagyu schools have their own lineage heads.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by birthdaycakespirit »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:10 pm
Pårl wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:59 pm Quick follow-on question... Is the Karmapa regarded as the head of just the Karma Kagyu lineage, or all the sub-schools of Kagyu? Googleing on the internet, I'm pretty sure it's just the Karma Kagyu sub-school, but thought I'd check. Always good to get an answer from an actual individual!
Only Karma Kagyu. Other kagyu schools have their own lineage heads.
https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (1924-1981) was the head of the entire Kagyu tradition.
[ . . . ]
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwang Karmapa has been the head of the Kagyu lineage in Tibet and in exile India.
According to this the Karmapa is the head of the Kagyu lineage. Did that stop at the 16th Karmapa, or is their website incorrect? I don't see any mentions of that continuing onto the 17th Karmapa though so I guess the seat being contested has caused a split?
Last edited by birthdaycakespirit on Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Ayu »

Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:30 am Drikung Kagyu is one of the minor branches and what is characteristic in the teachings is this obnoxiousness of loving friends and enemies alike, friends for being friends and enemies for being teachers of patience, etc.
An adept of this lineage is supposed to place the enemies as a jewel to the crown of the head.
...
As far as I know, this is a general teaching. At least Gelugs never cease to teach it.
It saves much quarrel 😉.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

The head of the Drukpa Kagyu is the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa: https://g.co/kgs/FWesyH
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

There are different heads of lineage for the different lineages, but the Karmapa is a protector of all Kagyu branches.
This is up until he ran from Tibet.
I can see in him his previous incarnation more than in Thaye Dorje Karmapa.. The previous incarnation was bold, yes, but this one is growing bolder by the day.
Regarding his financial entanglements, my former lama had something to say but I conveniently forgot. He can also go in a retreat and forget about claims on money. The entanglements are well documented on Wikipedia.
By fathering a child, I think he set the tone for what Tibetans have to do if they want to survive as a nation. It's that or going into oblivion!
By the way, I've seen him hanging around the Dalai Lama a lot. Something good must've rubbed on him that he acted quickly. Don't mess with him! As a protector, he is faster than a cheetah.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by yagmort »

imho it is inproper to put kagyu schools under the same canopy and call them "sub-" schools. even though they kagyu technically, they have their own head lamas and maintain their own practices. big ones these days are Drikung, Drukpa and Zurmang. Drikung and Drukpa are big on 6 yogas of Naropa, Zurmang don't practice six yogas but have their own karnatantra lineage from Trung Mase which they call "zurmang nyengyu"
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:59 pm By fathering a child, I think he set the tone for what Tibetans have to do if they want to survive as a nation. It's that or going into oblivion!
Have sex with nuns in a retreat center?

Sorry, couldn't help but tease you. I guess you have a heck of a pure view.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:21 pm
Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:59 pm By fathering a child, I think he set the tone for what Tibetans have to do if they want to survive as a nation. It's that or going into oblivion!
Have sex with nuns in a retreat center?

Sorry, couldn't help but tease you. I guess you have a heck of a pure view.
What's wrong with that?
You fail to see the end product.
Children are not brought on by storks. :crazy:
Try life outside your own country for a run! See if you like being kept captive and what sort of thoughts arise within yourself!
As a human, he can love and be loved. You can't take that right away from him. If you have understanding, maybe you are able to bend your own rules.
It's not your karma, it's his and he assumed the risks.
Have a good and peaceful day, Könchok Thrinley!
Last edited by Miorita on Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Chenda »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:21 pm
Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:59 pm By fathering a child, I think he set the tone for what Tibetans have to do if they want to survive as a nation. It's that or going into oblivion!
Have sex with nuns in a retreat center?

Sorry, couldn't help but tease you. I guess you have a heck of a pure view.
I think he's referring to TTD, the other one, not OTD, who is currently facing charges. TTD left monastic life to get married and have a family.
With the wisdom of threefold purity, dedicate all the virtue gained from having made such effort toward enlightenment. Dedicate it to clear away the suffering of infinite beings. This is the way of a Bodhisattva.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:19 pm
Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:30 am Drikung Kagyu is one of the minor branches and what is characteristic in the teachings is this obnoxiousness of loving friends and enemies alike, friends for being friends and enemies for being teachers of patience, etc.
An adept of this lineage is supposed to place the enemies as a jewel to the crown of the head.
...
As far as I know, this is a general teaching. At least Gelugs never cease to teach it.
It saves much quarrel 😉.
It is unique Drikung feature.

From the prayer book:
DHAG-LA DANG-WAR JYE-PAY-DRA/
NÖE-PAR JYE-PAY GEG/
THAR-PA DANG THAM-CHE KHYEN-PAY
BAR-DU CHÖE-PAR JYE-PA TAM-CHE
KYI TSO JYE-PAY/
MA NAM KHA DANG NYAM-PAY SEMCHEN TAM-CHE DEWA DANG-DEN/
DHUG-NYAL DANG DRAL NYUR-DU
LA-NA ME-PA YANG DAG-PAR DZOGPAY JYANG-CHUB RINPOCHE
THOB-PAR-JYA//

All mother sentient beings, especially
those enemies who hate me,
obstructers who harm me, and those
who create obstacles on my path to
liberation and all-knowingness;
may they experience happiness, and
be separated from suffering. I will
quickly establish them in the state of
the most perfect and precious Buddhahood.

The Karmapa succeeded in finding remnants similar to the Eucharist but did not come as close as Drikung in valuing one's enemies.

Then the are:
* the refuge tree: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p367619
The Drikung does not have Acala as protector as taught by the Karmapa.

* the phowa practice where one invokes the lineage holders for blessings.
* the sky burial practice

* the hats they wear. Garchen R. has a unique, unmistakable hat.

* the person who brought the Dharma to North America,
Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen is another great contemporary scholar of the Drikung and has published multiple works with an emphasis on the Drikung Kagyu teachings.

Opening the Treasure of the Profound: Teachings on the Songs of Jigten Sumgön and Milarepa is a wonderful collection of vajra songs. It also includes over sixty pages on Jigten Sumgön by His Holiness Chetsang Rinpoche, Ngorje Repa (a student of Sakya Sribhadra and Jigten Sumgön) and Drikung Kyabgon Padmai Gyaltsen.

A Complete Guide to the Buddhist Path is Khenchen's presentation of The Jewel Treasury of Advice, a text composed by Drikung Bhande Dharmaradza (1704–1754), the reincarnation of Drikung Dharmakirti, Rigdzin Chokyi Drakpa (1595–1659). This work includes advice for meditators, Mahayana practitioners, and Vajrayana practitioners. The teachings include Mahamudra preparation and practice, dispelling obstacles, the Six Yogas of Naropa, and the final result of practice.

The Great Kagyu Masters: The Golden Lineage Treasury brings the lives and teachings of many of the great Kagyupas to light. From Vajradhara to Jigten Sumgön, this collection also includes Shakyamuni Buddha himself, Tilopa, Naropa, the Four Great Dharma Kings, Marpa, Milarepa, Atisha, Gampopa, Phagmo Drupa, and more.

The Garland of Mahamudra Practices is a translation of Clarifying the Jewel Rosary of the Profound Five-Fold Path by Kunga Rinchen, the Dharma heir to Jigten Sumgön. It begins with instructions on ngondro followed by a special set of preliminary practices focused on generating love, compassion, and bodhichitta. It then goes into the main practices of deity yoga, meditation on the guru as the four kayas, meditation on Mahamudra and the view, and the pith instructions on the nature of mind.

Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen has also translated Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, which is a core text across all Dakpo Kagyu traditions.
From The Drikung Kagyu: A Reader's Guide

It sets clear delineations in practice and physically.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Kai lord »

Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:30 am In one documentary movie on YT there were secret techniques disclosed to the public out of fear that even these may be lost.
Disclosed in public? More like during specific group practice sessions or retreats. But of course, some people might see group practice as "public"
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Konchog1 »

birthdaycakespirit wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:10 pm
Pårl wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:59 pm Quick follow-on question... Is the Karmapa regarded as the head of just the Karma Kagyu lineage, or all the sub-schools of Kagyu? Googleing on the internet, I'm pretty sure it's just the Karma Kagyu sub-school, but thought I'd check. Always good to get an answer from an actual individual!
Only Karma Kagyu. Other kagyu schools have their own lineage heads.
https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (1924-1981) was the head of the entire Kagyu tradition.
[ . . . ]
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwang Karmapa has been the head of the Kagyu lineage in Tibet and in exile India.
According to this the Karmapa is the head of the Kagyu lineage. Did that stop at the 16th Karmapa, or is their website incorrect? I don't see any mentions of that continuing onto the 17th Karmapa though so I guess the seat being contested has caused a split?
That's what the Karma Kagyupa say I think. I remember the head of the Drukpa school saying they would now be the Drukpa, not the Drukpa Kagyu thank you very much.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Natan »

birthdaycakespirit wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:10 pm
Pårl wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:59 pm Quick follow-on question... Is the Karmapa regarded as the head of just the Karma Kagyu lineage, or all the sub-schools of Kagyu? Googleing on the internet, I'm pretty sure it's just the Karma Kagyu sub-school, but thought I'd check. Always good to get an answer from an actual individual!
Only Karma Kagyu. Other kagyu schools have their own lineage heads.
https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (1924-1981) was the head of the entire Kagyu tradition.
[ . . . ]
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwang Karmapa has been the head of the Kagyu lineage in Tibet and in exile India.
According to this the Karmapa is the head of the Kagyu lineage. Did that stop at the 16th Karmapa, or is their website incorrect? I don't see any mentions of that continuing onto the 17th Karmapa though so I guess the seat being contested has caused a split?
The Karma Kagyu is so big it had become synonymous with Kagyu, so much that Drukpa Kagyu dropped the Kagyu and now they're just Drukpa Lineage. But from the time of Naropa and Marpa it has been called Kagyu which means four transmissions. And from that time different lineages emerged. For example Shangpa Kagyu came from Naropa's sister, Niguma. The biggies followed Milarepa's disciple Gampopa. The first Karmapa was one. Another important one was Phagmo Drupa, who had a number of important disciples who started their own lineages, like Jigten Sumgon. Some of those lineages are no more. But from that time all these lineages had their own lineage masters. Drinkung kagyu splits the seat between two men.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Natan »

yagmort wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 6:00 pm imho it is inproper to put kagyu schools under the same canopy and call them "sub-" schools. even though they kagyu technically, they have their own head lamas and maintain their own practices. big ones these days are Drikung, Drukpa and Zurmang. Drikung and Drukpa are big on 6 yogas of Naropa, Zurmang don't practice six yogas but have their own karnatantra lineage from Trung Mase which they call "zurmang nyengyu"
They are called sub-schools in their own histories after they branched off of Phagmo Drupa. For example, the Taklung Kagyu is Kagyu although their tulkus are associated with Nyingma now, except Taklung Matul Rinpoche, whom I know. He has been working in tandem with Drikung Kagyu to keep that tradition going. Our transmission of Ganga Mahamudra was with an outline provided by him.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Natan »

Miorita wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:19 pm
Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:30 am Drikung Kagyu is one of the minor branches and what is characteristic in the teachings is this obnoxiousness of loving friends and enemies alike, friends for being friends and enemies for being teachers of patience, etc.
An adept of this lineage is supposed to place the enemies as a jewel to the crown of the head.
...
As far as I know, this is a general teaching. At least Gelugs never cease to teach it.
It saves much quarrel 😉.
It is unique Drikung feature.

From the prayer book:
DHAG-LA DANG-WAR JYE-PAY-DRA/
NÖE-PAR JYE-PAY GEG/
THAR-PA DANG THAM-CHE KHYEN-PAY
BAR-DU CHÖE-PAR JYE-PA TAM-CHE
KYI TSO JYE-PAY/
MA NAM KHA DANG NYAM-PAY SEMCHEN TAM-CHE DEWA DANG-DEN/
DHUG-NYAL DANG DRAL NYUR-DU
LA-NA ME-PA YANG DAG-PAR DZOGPAY JYANG-CHUB RINPOCHE
THOB-PAR-JYA//

All mother sentient beings, especially
those enemies who hate me,
obstructers who harm me, and those
who create obstacles on my path to
liberation and all-knowingness;
may they experience happiness, and
be separated from suffering. I will
quickly establish them in the state of
the most perfect and precious Buddhahood.

The Karmapa succeeded in finding remnants similar to the Eucharist but did not come as close as Drikung in valuing one's enemies.

Then the are:
* the refuge tree: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p367619
The Drikung does not have Acala as protector as taught by the Karmapa.

* the phowa practice where one invokes the lineage holders for blessings.
* the sky burial practice

* the hats they wear. Garchen R. has a unique, unmistakable hat.

* the person who brought the Dharma to North America,
Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen is another great contemporary scholar of the Drikung and has published multiple works with an emphasis on the Drikung Kagyu teachings.

Opening the Treasure of the Profound: Teachings on the Songs of Jigten Sumgön and Milarepa is a wonderful collection of vajra songs. It also includes over sixty pages on Jigten Sumgön by His Holiness Chetsang Rinpoche, Ngorje Repa (a student of Sakya Sribhadra and Jigten Sumgön) and Drikung Kyabgon Padmai Gyaltsen.

A Complete Guide to the Buddhist Path is Khenchen's presentation of The Jewel Treasury of Advice, a text composed by Drikung Bhande Dharmaradza (1704–1754), the reincarnation of Drikung Dharmakirti, Rigdzin Chokyi Drakpa (1595–1659). This work includes advice for meditators, Mahayana practitioners, and Vajrayana practitioners. The teachings include Mahamudra preparation and practice, dispelling obstacles, the Six Yogas of Naropa, and the final result of practice.

The Great Kagyu Masters: The Golden Lineage Treasury brings the lives and teachings of many of the great Kagyupas to light. From Vajradhara to Jigten Sumgön, this collection also includes Shakyamuni Buddha himself, Tilopa, Naropa, the Four Great Dharma Kings, Marpa, Milarepa, Atisha, Gampopa, Phagmo Drupa, and more.

The Garland of Mahamudra Practices is a translation of Clarifying the Jewel Rosary of the Profound Five-Fold Path by Kunga Rinchen, the Dharma heir to Jigten Sumgön. It begins with instructions on ngondro followed by a special set of preliminary practices focused on generating love, compassion, and bodhichitta. It then goes into the main practices of deity yoga, meditation on the guru as the four kayas, meditation on Mahamudra and the view, and the pith instructions on the nature of mind.

Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen has also translated Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, which is a core text across all Dakpo Kagyu traditions.
From The Drikung Kagyu: A Reader's Guide

It sets clear delineations in practice and physically.
A real devout Drikungpa here that's great. I studied many years with DK drubpon. My vajra sister was a Taiwanese nun and followed him for many years and we received many transmissions together. She was always happy and smiling, but didn't do any long retreat. She was abbot of a nunnery She shed her body in January and sat up in Tukdam for 8 days and there were rainbows around the monastery and many signs. That was an inspiring story. Our lama taught very simple pure dharma, focused on devotion and pith instructions.
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