Sub-schools of Kagyu

Miorita
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

Thank you everyone!
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Konchog1 wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 pm
birthdaycakespirit wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:10 pm

Only Karma Kagyu. Other kagyu schools have their own lineage heads.
https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (1924-1981) was the head of the entire Kagyu tradition.
[ . . . ]
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwang Karmapa has been the head of the Kagyu lineage in Tibet and in exile India.
According to this the Karmapa is the head of the Kagyu lineage. Did that stop at the 16th Karmapa, or is their website incorrect? I don't see any mentions of that continuing onto the 17th Karmapa though so I guess the seat being contested has caused a split?
That's what the Karma Kagyupa say I think. I remember the head of the Drukpa school saying they would now be the Drukpa, not the Drukpa Kagyu thank you very much.
Yeah, I remember reading somewhere that back in the 70's/80's there might have been some tendencies among Karma Kagyu to "own" the other Kagyu lineages. Possibly it is still present. I am not well versed in the dharma politics.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 3:00 pm
birthdaycakespirit wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:12 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:10 pm

Only Karma Kagyu. Other kagyu schools have their own lineage heads.
https://kagyuoffice.org/kagyu-lineage/
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa, Rangjung Rigpe Dorje (1924-1981) was the head of the entire Kagyu tradition.
[ . . . ]
His Holiness the Sixteenth Gyalwang Karmapa has been the head of the Kagyu lineage in Tibet and in exile India.
According to this the Karmapa is the head of the Kagyu lineage. Did that stop at the 16th Karmapa, or is their website incorrect? I don't see any mentions of that continuing onto the 17th Karmapa though so I guess the seat being contested has caused a split?
The Karma Kagyu is so big it had become synonymous with Kagyu, so much that Drukpa Kagyu dropped the Kagyu and now they're just Drukpa Lineage. But from the time of Naropa and Marpa it has been called Kagyu which means four transmissions. And from that time different lineages emerged. For example Shangpa Kagyu came from Naropa's sister, Niguma. The biggies followed Milarepa's disciple Gampopa. The first Karmapa was one. Another important one was Phagmo Drupa, who had a number of important disciples who started their own lineages, like Jigten Sumgon. Some of those lineages are no more. But from that time all these lineages had their own lineage masters. Drinkung kagyu splits the seat between two men.
The taking over of Drukpa monasteries and the eviction of Drukpa monks and nuns by the Karma Kagyu seems to have motivated the name change if I remember correctly.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by conebeckham »

Where to begin.....


There is a lot of misleading information in this thread.

Most importantly, the idea that it is only the Drikungpas who stress regarding "enemies" as one's friends is just flat out wrong.
Every lineage teaches that all sentient beings are equal and in practice one includes one's "enemies" taking refuge with oneself, doing prostrations, etc. and also viewing one's adversaries as "teachers" or "opportunities" is baked into all the Ngondros, sadhanas, etc. that I am familiar with--across the spectrum of the 8 chariots, or Four Major Lineage designations, etc. These ideas are central to LoJong training.

Also, I think it is incorrect to call the Drikung Kagyu a "minor" school. In one prayer it talks of the Greater and Lesser schools, but in fact this refers to the chronological development of unique institutional or methodological transmissions. Drikung came later than Phagdru, for instance, and the so-called "lesser" Schools are not "lesser," but later.

Much of this "Lineage Head" discussion is political, obviously; HHGK was "nominated" or "designated" as head of the Kagyu schools esp. at the time of the Tibetan diaspora to India.In reality, it is more important, from the POV of an individual disciple's orientation, to trace back one's teacher's lineage. Certainly HHGK is a focus for Karma Kagyu students, but I would not expect a Drikungpa to consider him or herself as in the same lineage of practice and instruction as HHGK. All this discussion about the power struggles, etc. is interesting to historians, but just another aspect or reflection of Samsara and the Five Poisons, IMO.

The Word "Kagyu" really just means "Oral Transmission lineage"--in terms of methods of practice, honestly, all Tibetan Lineages are "Kagyu." Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche once remarked on the "Sakya Kagyu" or "LamDre Kagyu," the "Genden Kagyu," etc., etc.

The schools normally referred to as "Kagyu" are the four earlier and 8 later collections of instruction and method that have their common root with Marpa's transmission. The Shangpa Kagyu is the oral transmission lineage from "Shang," which is the place where Khyungpo Naljor founded his main monastery in Tibet.

I think you'll find that every Lama has a somewhat unique lineage, or lineages, of practice, from various sources. They may identify with a particular institution--for instance, my main Lamas consider themselves "Karma Kagyu" but the transmissions and practices they spread come not only from Marpa, and the Kamtsang, but also esp. from the Shangpa, and the Nyingma, Kadam, Zhije and Cho traditions.

I find it more useful, and more personally rewarding, to think of the Vajrayana transmissions as the valuable and essential "lineage"--and the institutional organizations as necessary, but more as supports for the maintenance of the actual transmission of blessings.....these two aspects are intertwined, of course, and maybe cannot be entirely separated, but I find it helpful to make the distinction. YMMV.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Ayu »

Miorita wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 4:19 pm
Miorita wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:30 am Drikung Kagyu is one of the minor branches and what is characteristic in the teachings is this obnoxiousness of loving friends and enemies alike, friends for being friends and enemies for being teachers of patience, etc.
An adept of this lineage is supposed to place the enemies as a jewel to the crown of the head.
...
As far as I know, this is a general teaching. At least Gelugs never cease to teach it.
It saves much quarrel 😉.
It is unique Drikung feature.

From the prayer book:
DHAG-LA DANG-WAR JYE-PAY-DRA/
NÖE-PAR JYE-PAY GEG/
THAR-PA DANG THAM-CHE KHYEN-PAY
BAR-DU CHÖE-PAR JYE-PA TAM-CHE
KYI TSO JYE-PAY/
MA NAM KHA DANG NYAM-PAY SEMCHEN TAM-CHE DEWA DANG-DEN/
DHUG-NYAL DANG DRAL NYUR-DU
LA-NA ME-PA YANG DAG-PAR DZOGPAY JYANG-CHUB RINPOCHE
THOB-PAR-JYA//

All mother sentient beings, especially
those enemies who hate me,
obstructers who harm me, and those
who create obstacles on my path to
liberation and all-knowingness;
may they experience happiness, and
be separated from suffering. I will
quickly establish them in the state of
the most perfect and precious Buddhahood.

The Karmapa succeeded in finding remnants similar to the Eucharist but did not come as close as Drikung in valuing one's enemies.

Then the are:
* the refuge tree: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 19#p367619
The Drikung does not have Acala as protector as taught by the Karmapa.

* the phowa practice where one invokes the lineage holders for blessings.
* the sky burial practice

* the hats they wear. Garchen R. has a unique, unmistakable hat.

* the person who brought the Dharma to North America,
Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen is another great contemporary scholar of the Drikung and has published multiple works with an emphasis on the Drikung Kagyu teachings.

Opening the Treasure of the Profound: Teachings on the Songs of Jigten Sumgön and Milarepa is a wonderful collection of vajra songs. It also includes over sixty pages on Jigten Sumgön by His Holiness Chetsang Rinpoche, Ngorje Repa (a student of Sakya Sribhadra and Jigten Sumgön) and Drikung Kyabgon Padmai Gyaltsen.

A Complete Guide to the Buddhist Path is Khenchen's presentation of The Jewel Treasury of Advice, a text composed by Drikung Bhande Dharmaradza (1704–1754), the reincarnation of Drikung Dharmakirti, Rigdzin Chokyi Drakpa (1595–1659). This work includes advice for meditators, Mahayana practitioners, and Vajrayana practitioners. The teachings include Mahamudra preparation and practice, dispelling obstacles, the Six Yogas of Naropa, and the final result of practice.

The Great Kagyu Masters: The Golden Lineage Treasury brings the lives and teachings of many of the great Kagyupas to light. From Vajradhara to Jigten Sumgön, this collection also includes Shakyamuni Buddha himself, Tilopa, Naropa, the Four Great Dharma Kings, Marpa, Milarepa, Atisha, Gampopa, Phagmo Drupa, and more.

The Garland of Mahamudra Practices is a translation of Clarifying the Jewel Rosary of the Profound Five-Fold Path by Kunga Rinchen, the Dharma heir to Jigten Sumgön. It begins with instructions on ngondro followed by a special set of preliminary practices focused on generating love, compassion, and bodhichitta. It then goes into the main practices of deity yoga, meditation on the guru as the four kayas, meditation on Mahamudra and the view, and the pith instructions on the nature of mind.

Khenchen Konchog Gyaltsen has also translated Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation, which is a core text across all Dakpo Kagyu traditions.
From The Drikung Kagyu: A Reader's Guide

It sets clear delineations in practice and physically.
The topic is part of the shantideva teaching bodhicharyavatara - chapter about patience. It surely looks diferently there, but its the same intention.
It's also mentioned in the 37 practices of a bodhisattva.
No problem. You can regard it as solely Drikung, if that is important for you.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Ayu »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:10 pm Where to begin.....


There is a lot of misleading information in this thread.

Most importantly, the idea that it is only the Drikungpas who stress regarding "enemies" as one's friends is just flat out wrong.
Every lineage teaches that all sentient beings are equal and in practice one includes one's "enemies" taking refuge with oneself, doing prostrations, etc. and also viewing one's adversaries as "teachers" or "opportunities" is baked into all the Ngondros, sadhanas, etc. that I am familiar with--across the spectrum of the 8 chariots, or Four Major Lineage designations, etc. These ideas are central to LoJong training.

Also, I think it is incorrect to call the Drikung Kagyu a "minor" school. In one prayer it talks of the Greater and Lesser schools, but in fact this refers to the chronological development of unique institutional or methodological transmissions. Drikung came later than Phagdru, for instance, and the so-called "lesser" Schools are not "lesser," but later.

Much of this "Lineage Head" discussion is political, obviously; HHGK was "nominated" or "designated" as head of the Kagyu schools esp. at the time of the Tibetan diaspora to India.In reality, it is more important, from the POV of an individual disciple's orientation, to trace back one's teacher's lineage. Certainly HHGK is a focus for Karma Kagyu students, but I would not expect a Drikungpa to consider him or herself as in the same lineage of practice and instruction as HHGK. All this discussion about the power struggles, etc. is interesting to historians, but just another aspect or reflection of Samsara and the Five Poisons, IMO.

The Word "Kagyu" really just means "Oral Transmission lineage"--in terms of methods of practice, honestly, all Tibetan Lineages are "Kagyu." Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche once remarked on the "Sakya Kagyu" or "LamDre Kagyu," the "Genden Kagyu," etc., etc.

The schools normally referred to as "Kagyu" are the four earlier and 8 later collections of instruction and method that have their common root with Marpa's transmission. The Shangpa Kagyu is the oral transmission lineage from "Shang," which is the place where Khyungpo Naljor founded his main monastery in Tibet.

I think you'll find that every Lama has a somewhat unique lineage, or lineages, of practice, from various sources. They may identify with a particular institution--for instance, my main Lamas consider themselves "Karma Kagyu" but the transmissions and practices they spread come not only from Marpa, and the Kamtsang, but also esp. from the Shangpa, and the Nyingma, Kadam, Zhije and Cho traditions.

I find it more useful, and more personally rewarding, to think of the Vajrayana transmissions as the valuable and essential "lineage"--and the institutional organizations as necessary, but more as supports for the maintenance of the actual transmission of blessings.....these two aspects are intertwined, of course, and maybe cannot be entirely separated, but I find it helpful to make the distinction. YMMV.
:good: Thank you for setting informations straight.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

Thank you so very much for respecting the practices!
And the teacher sponsoring Dharma centers across the US!
Lord Jigten Sumgon appears a lot of times in the prayers and practices. It was annoying in the beginning, but then it has become a household name and now in his own right.

Yes, Shantideva and yes, 37 practices!
And Gonchig that I am yet to read!

I found out that keeping it simple is more effective than having a multitude of anything and everything.
The conglomerate and intertwined history announced previously may be accurate but what I observe is that it is to fit other persons’ tastes and abilities. Maybe they are “at home” everywhere and nowhere.
But for me it has happened like “This is the chance! Take it or leave it!” I’m not inclined to forget that.
Then, just like a flower 🌸, the human being is that when it opens, it gives off its scent for all to know.
What is your scent like?
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Pårl »

Many thanks everyone! This is much more than I coud have hoped for :thanks:

I will keep referring to this thread in the coming weeks and months as I move forward on my path :reading:

Pårl.
dzoki
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by dzoki »

My simplyfied take on the different subschools of Tagpo Kagyu :D (no disrespect intended).

Karma Kagyu - guruyoga poets - We make guruyoga liturgies of every single Karmapa, and more! Here, go practice some guruyoga.

Drikung Kagyu - jack of all trades - Do you need some simple, upadesha style, practice for this or that? We have it!

Drugpa Kagyu - hardass disciplinarians - Go sit in that retreat, boy (or girl)!

Barom Kagyu - the other hardass disciplinarians - Have you heard Drugpas? Same here.

Taklung Kagyu - Kagyu? What? We really are Nyingma.
Last edited by dzoki on Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

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Miorita wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am * the person who brought the Dharma to North America,
Dharma was brought to North America over an at least 190 year period beginning *BEFORE* Chinese laborer's came to Californian to build the railroads in the 1860's (goes back at least to the Transcendental Poets beginning in the 1830's and there is evidence that knowledge of Buddhism goes back to at least Jefferson). It's a bit controversial but there was at least one established Pure Land sangha composed mostly of Caucasian people in NYC by the 1930's (many of whom disappeared because they unadvisedly went to Japan before 1941). And then there was a lot of Zen activity in the 50's and early 60's. Prior to that there were many Japanese Pure Land and Chinese Buddhist temples that had been established on the US West Coast and Hawai'i since the 1880's.

This is not to denigrate HH 16th Karmapa's activity. I saw him on TV as a kid. I was mystified by that tv appearance at the time.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

Post by Miorita »

kirtu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:30 pm
Miorita wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:38 am * the person who brought the Dharma to North America,
Dharma was brought to North America over an at least 190 year period beginning *BEFORE* Chinese laborer's came to Californian to build the railroads in the 1860's (goes back at least to the Transcendental Poets beginning in the 1830's and there is evidence that knowledge of Buddhism goes back to at least Jefferson). It's a bit controversial but there was at least one established Pure Land sangha composed mostly of Caucasian people in NYC by the 1930's (many of whom disappeared because they unadvisedly went to Japan before 1941). And then there was a lot of Zen activity in the 50's and early 60's. Prior to that there were many Japanese Pure Land and Chinese Buddhist temples that had been established on the US West Coast and Hawai'i since the 1880's.

This is not to denigrate HH 16th Karmapa's activity. I saw him on TV as a kid. I was mystified by that tv appearance at the time.
I stand corrected.
My teacher is not Chinese. He is Tibetan, a student of Kalu Rinpoche by his own words.
https://drikung.se/onewebmedia/Venerabl ... graphy.pdf
Inspired to spread the buddhadharma far and wide, Khenchen Rinpoche swiftly adapted himself to Western
forms of communication. He has made appearances on television, been a guest on many radio programs,
lectured extensively at colleges and universities, and spoken to the public through countless newspaper
articles. Between 1983 and 1990, Khenchen Rinpoche singlehandedly translated critical Drikung Kagyu
practices, prayers and histories into English. T
See? I missed so much of this. At the time I was busy under Ceausescu's regime. I hadn't even read the Bible yet at the time.
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Re: Sub-schools of Kagyu

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Rigpawiki entry - Kagyü
The name ‘Kagyü’ is sometimes said to refer to ‘the lineage of the four instruction transmissions’ (kabab shyi gyü) held by the mahasiddha Tilopa from Bengal.
...
Milarepa's main disciple, Gampopa, aka Dakpo Lharjé (1079-1173), brought together the Drupgyü and Kadampa lineages, thus founding the Dakpo Kagyü school. This lineage was later subdivided into four schools by his four main disciples.
...
Four Major Schools of the Dakpo Kagyü
Karma Kagyü, also known as Kamtsang Kagyü, founded by Düsum Khyenpa (1110-1193), later designated the first Karmapa
Barom Kagyü, founded by Barompa Darma Wangchug (1127-1199)
Tsalpa Kagyü, founded by Zangyu Dragpa Darma Drag (Zhang Rinpoche) (1123-1194)
Pagdru Kagyü, founded by Phagmodrupa Dorje Gyalpo (1110-1170).
The Pagdru Kagyü school later splintered into eight sub-schools, which were founded by his eight main disciples, as follows:
Eight Pagdru Kagyü Sub-schools
Drikung Kagyü, founded by Drikung Kyobpa Jikten Sumgön (1143-1217); it included the Lhapa sect, builders of the earliest dzongs in Bhutan, later eclipsed by the Drukpa.
Drukpa Kagyü, founded by Lingje Repa Pema Dorje (1128-1188)
Taklung Kagyü, founded by Taklung Thangpa Tashi Pal (1142-1210)
Martsang Kagyü, founded by Marpa Drubthob Sherab Sengé‎, aka Chöjé Marpa (1135-1203)
Shugseb Kagyü, founded by Kyer Gompa Chökyi Sengé (1144-1204)
Trophu Kagyü, founded by Drogön Gyalsa (1118-1195) and his brother Kunden Repa (1148-1217)
Yamzang Kagyü, founded by Kelden Yeshé Sangyé (d.1207)
Yelpa Kagyü, founded by Yelphukpa aka Yelpa Yeshe Tsek (1134-1194)
Today, only the first three of these eight Pagdru Kagyü sub-schools remain; these three are also the closest to the
Nyingma school, with which sharing a large number of transmissions.

Note: the Shangpa Kagyü school, although very similar to the Dakpo Kagyü school, is different in its Indian origins and practices. However, during the nineteenth century, these two lineages merged into one: the Dashang Kagyü lineage.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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