Question: Reincarnation with years of break

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Nosta
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Question: Reincarnation with years of break

Post by Nosta »

I was seeing the documentary series of Leslie Kean, Surviving Deathm when I saw again the cases of children remembering past lives. The strange thing is that the time between death and rebirth was years (9 years in one case, maybe decades on other). How can that be possible and explainable according to Buddhism? Reality seems to be contrary to Buddhism (and I would love to see that Buddhism is correct).

What are your toughts on this?
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

There are all kinds of theoretical explanations, the simplest being that even past-life memory is incomplete, as most memory is. Maybe they were animals during that time, and do not remember, etc. Who knows, ultimately it is non falsifiable and all we can do is speculate.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Similarly, you can remember some events from your childhood better than you can remember some more recent events.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Vasana »

The afterlife /bardo experience can sometimes occur for years rather than the usual account of days or weeks.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Nosta »

The idea that they were animals in between was what I tought too.
About the reencarnation ocuring only years....well, what happened to the stream of consciousness during that time? But its a possible explanation too.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Memory is very selective, I imagine that applies to other existences too.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

They could of reincarnated as a type of being that we can not see or spent a long time in the bardo, been in another universe, simply not remember everything, etc.
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Nosta
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Nosta »

Interesting opinions so far, thanks for sharing.

Do you - any of you - know if there is something about this in buddhist scriptures. I think there is something regarding 49 days as max time in bardo, but never read about years in bardo or just remembering memorys from other lives but not the immediat previous life.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

You can be reborn as a bardo being. Unless you engage in certain meditative practices or reach certain stages on the Bodhisattva path, you will likely only recall buts and pieces if anything.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Aemilius »

In the books of Ian Stevenson there are cases in which the period between lives is several years. In the buddhist view the persons have probably been born as devas. Why not, for heavens sake!? The times passes differently in the deva realms; five, eight or nine human years is a much longer time in the deva realms.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ultimately it boils down to
whatever you choose to believe,
and whatever you choose to believe
usually boils down to
whatever is within your conceptual comfort zone
which boils down to self-grasping.
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Nosta
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Nosta »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:56 am In the books of Ian Stevenson there are cases in which the period between lives is several years. In the buddhist view the persons have probably been born as devas. Why not, for heavens sake!? The times passes differently in the deva realms; five, eight or nine human years is a much longer time in the deva realms.
That raises another question: why nobody* ever remembers beeing on heaven, hell, etc?
I am not saying I dont believe on that. I believe that such realms exist.

But if these children were in such a place in between, why they remember only the previous life as humans?

These are complex questions. I would love to see what buddhism texts say about it or see a buddhist master/teacher talking about.

*nobody = children; past regression adults not included
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Aemilius »

Nosta wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:56 am In the books of Ian Stevenson there are cases in which the period between lives is several years. In the buddhist view the persons have probably been born as devas. Why not, for heavens sake!? The times passes differently in the deva realms; five, eight or nine human years is a much longer time in the deva realms.
That raises another question: why nobody* ever remembers beeing on heaven, hell, etc?
I am not saying I dont believe on that. I believe that such realms exist.

But if these children were in such a place in between, why they remember only the previous life as humans?

These are complex questions. I would love to see what buddhism texts say about it or see a buddhist master/teacher talking about.

*nobody = children; past regression adults not included
There is, for example, a rebirth story from Japan, which is told in Gleanings in Buddha-Fields by Lafcadio Hearn. In this story the person remembers something of the after death state, and says that he met an old man in that state:

"After that, I only remember that the old man led me by some roundabout way to this place—I remember we passed the road beyond the village. Then we came here, and he pointed to this house, and said to me:—'Now you must be reborn,—for it is three years since you died. You are to be reborn in that house."

Lafcadio Hearn's book is in the Project Gutenberg, and the story is in the chapter titled "THE REBIRTH OF KATSUGORŌ"
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55681/5 ... 5681-h.htm


One example of buddhist texts in this category is a sūtra by the title of Ayuspattiyathakaraparipicchasutra, roughly translated The sūtra (spoken by the Buddha) in response to a query over what happens after death
Found inThubten Chodron's website https://thubtenchodron.org/2008/08/dial ... g-rebirth/
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Aemilius »

"A young boy in Thailand can allegedly recall specific details of his previous life as a serpent.

In an apparent case of animal reincarnation, a young Thai boy named Dalawong was three years old when he met an aquaintance of his father, Mr. Hiew, for the first time.

Despite having never met the man before Dalawong was able to describe in explicit detail a confrontation between Mr Hiew, who was a hunter, and a snake that he had killed in a cave.

The three-year-old provided an accurate account of how the snake had been cornered by Hiew's two dogs before being killed and cooked for food. He even described how his father had eaten a piece of the snake, a fact that both men were later able to verify.

Dalawong's remarkable recollection of these events was attributed to the fact that he believed he had lived the life of that very same snake in his previous incarnation. The boy even suffered from a rare skin condition that covered his lower body in snake-like scales.
The peculiar case was investigated by Francis Story, an associate of the late Dr. Ian Stevenson and whose findings were later put to paper in a book on reincarnation by Dr. Jim Tucker."

quoted from https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/n ... as-a-snake

"Jim B. Tucker is a child psychiatrist and Bonner-Lowry Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia School of Medicine. His main research interests are documenting stories of children whom he claims remember previous lives, and natal and prenatal memories. He is the author of Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children’s Memories of Previous Lives, which presents an overview of over four decades of reincarnation research at the Division of Perceptual Studies. Tucker worked for several years on this research with Ian Stevenson before taking over upon Stevenson's retirement in 2002."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_B._Tucker
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Nosta wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:16 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:56 am In the books of Ian Stevenson there are cases in which the period between lives is several years. In the buddhist view the persons have probably been born as devas. Why not, for heavens sake!? The times passes differently in the deva realms; five, eight or nine human years is a much longer time in the deva realms.
That raises another question: why nobody* ever remembers beeing on heaven, hell, etc?
I am not saying I dont believe on that. I believe that such realms exist.

But if these children were in such a place in between, why they remember only the previous life as humans?

These are complex questions. I would love to see what buddhism texts say about it or see a buddhist master/teacher talking about.

*nobody = children; past regression adults not included
It’s possible that people do have such memories, but cannot contextualize them (for the most part) because their entire sensory and conceptual experience in this life is a human one.

As an experiment, just see if you can imagine what it would be like to have the experiences of a dog or bat, then how you would even make sense of it in your current state, in the form of memory. You would probably just assume it to be a random vision or imagining some sort -the kind that are going through our minds constantly.

The only way we might gain a better understanding of them is having enough of them to have a concept of self and other connected to them, some context. Just as our self concept now is connected to all our human memory, ideas, sensory experience.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Aemilius »

There are NDE's (near death experiences) from Thailand, for example. They are quite interesting:

Near-Death Experiences in Thailand; Todd Murphy, San Francisco, CA https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... o3-161.pdf

JOURNAL OF NEAR-DEATH STUDIES

Four of my ten cases include being
accused of this sin by accountants reading from books, as if Yama's
accountants were looking at only the balance due, in contrast to the
panoramic life review in Western NDEs that covers all the transac
tions. This commercial metaphor becomes more apt when we realize
that Yama's record-keepers are referred to as "accountants" in several
NDEs.
"I climbed these stairs and found myself in the judgment hall of Yama's
palace. I knew that they were ready to judge me for my sins. A giant
rooster appeared who told Yama that I had killed him. He emphasized
that I had tried to kill him again and again. The rooster said that he
remembered me exactly. An entire flock of roosters also appeared and
testified that I had killed them, as well. I remembered my actions,
and I had to admit that the roosters had told the truth. Yama said
that I had committed many sins, and sentenced me to many rebirths,
both as a chicken and many other kinds of birds. After these births, I
would then be reborn as an angelic being (Thevada) due to my having
performed meritorious actions many times." (Suwannathat, n.d., Vol. 2,
from chapter on pp. 126-136)

Mistaken Identity

Thai NDErs, like those from India, often report having been told that
they were taken by mistake, that they were the wrong person, and that
they must return to life. I will discuss this further below.
"He then found himself in front of Yama, the lord of the underworld.
Yama looked into a book in which his actions were written. Before the
judgment could begin, Yama said that he was the wrong person and
had to be taken back. The patient "sneaked" a look into the book, and
he saw that it was written in Thai. Surprised, (possibly because he
expected it to be written in Pali) he took a closer look, and saw the
name of a person he knew from his village, with the date of his death
written as three days after his own NDE. The man named in Yama's
book did, in fact, die on the date named. (D. Muangman, personal com
munication, 1997)
"Yama told me that I had committed a number of sins, especially in
having butchered a number of chickens. I denied it, and said that I
had not done that, not even once. Yama was surprised, and asked his
records-keeper, "How old is he?" "Thirteen years, lord," came the an
swer. "What's his name?" My name was read out. Yama said "You've
taken the wrong man. Take him back." (Suwannathat, n.d., Vol. 2, from
chapter on pp. 126-136)
Someone came to lead him into a building.... There were many people
in the building. He was led to the right, and into a room with a large
table in the center. There were three men sitting at the table, which
had several stacks of books on it. The man sitting in the middle seemed
to be the boss. The other two were looking into books opened before
them.
After Kodien sat down, the one in the middle asked for his name and
age. The boss asked the one on the right to check to see if it was correct.
They found that it was not correct. The boss told the one on the left
to take him back quickly," (Suwannathat, n.d., Vol. 3, from chapter on
pp. 9-24).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Nosta
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Nosta »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am There are NDE's (near death experiences) from Thailand, for example. They are quite interesting:

Near-Death Experiences in Thailand; Todd Murphy, San Francisco, CA https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... o3-161.pdf

JOURNAL OF NEAR-DEATH STUDIES

Four of my ten cases include being
accused of this sin by accountants reading from books, as if Yama's
accountants were looking at only the balance due, in contrast to the
panoramic life review in Western NDEs that covers all the transac
tions. This commercial metaphor becomes more apt when we realize
that Yama's record-keepers are referred to as "accountants" in several
NDEs.
"I climbed these stairs and found myself in the judgment hall of Yama's
palace. I knew that they were ready to judge me for my sins. A giant
rooster appeared who told Yama that I had killed him. He emphasized
that I had tried to kill him again and again. The rooster said that he
remembered me exactly. An entire flock of roosters also appeared and
testified that I had killed them, as well. I remembered my actions,
and I had to admit that the roosters had told the truth. Yama said
that I had committed many sins, and sentenced me to many rebirths,
both as a chicken and many other kinds of birds. After these births, I
would then be reborn as an angelic being (Thevada) due to my having
performed meritorious actions many times." (Suwannathat, n.d., Vol. 2,
from chapter on pp. 126-136)

Mistaken Identity

Thai NDErs, like those from India, often report having been told that
they were taken by mistake, that they were the wrong person, and that
they must return to life. I will discuss this further below.
"He then found himself in front of Yama, the lord of the underworld.
Yama looked into a book in which his actions were written. Before the
judgment could begin, Yama said that he was the wrong person and
had to be taken back. The patient "sneaked" a look into the book, and
he saw that it was written in Thai. Surprised, (possibly because he
expected it to be written in Pali) he took a closer look, and saw the
name of a person he knew from his village, with the date of his death
written as three days after his own NDE. The man named in Yama's
book did, in fact, die on the date named. (D. Muangman, personal com
munication, 1997)
"Yama told me that I had committed a number of sins, especially in
having butchered a number of chickens. I denied it, and said that I
had not done that, not even once. Yama was surprised, and asked his
records-keeper, "How old is he?" "Thirteen years, lord," came the an
swer. "What's his name?" My name was read out. Yama said "You've
taken the wrong man. Take him back." (Suwannathat, n.d., Vol. 2, from
chapter on pp. 126-136)
Someone came to lead him into a building.... There were many people
in the building. He was led to the right, and into a room with a large
table in the center. There were three men sitting at the table, which
had several stacks of books on it. The man sitting in the middle seemed
to be the boss. The other two were looking into books opened before
them.
After Kodien sat down, the one in the middle asked for his name and
age. The boss asked the one on the right to check to see if it was correct.
They found that it was not correct. The boss told the one on the left
to take him back quickly," (Suwannathat, n.d., Vol. 3, from chapter on
pp. 9-24).
Thanks for the very interesting accounts you shared in your posts. The one about the kid that was a snake is very interesting indeed!
I will read the link you gave, about the sutra.
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Aemilius
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by Aemilius »

By chance I came across an answer to your original question, it is in AbhidharmakosaBhasyam of Vasubandhu. There are about 20 pages concerning the intermediate state beginning at p. 382 in vol. II. It is interesting material. There are four different opinions concerning the length of the intermediate state. According to the commentators of ABK, Vasubandhu prefers the answer he has put first which is: " How long does an intermediate being exits? There is no fixed rule, says the Bhadanta". (Two of the other opinions are: 7 days, and 7 weeks.)
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by curtstein »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:31 am By chance I came across an answer to your original question, it is in AbhidharmakosaBhasyam of Vasubandhu. There are about 20 pages concerning the intermediate state beginning at p. 382 in vol. II. It is interesting material. There are four different opinions concerning the length of the intermediate state. According to the commentators of ABK, Vasubandhu prefers the answer he has put first which is: " How long does an intermediate being exits? There is no fixed rule, says the Bhadanta". (Two of the other opinions are: 7 days, and 7 weeks.)
Wow! That is extremely interesting. I have recently been reading a lot about East Asian Buddhist thinking/practices regarding the intermediate state. In East Asia it is commonly believed that the first 49 days (the "seven seven") are subsequently followed by three more intermediate steps: 100 days after death, 1 year after death, and then a final stage that ends at least two years but probably no more than 3 years after death. This idea is associated with the "apocryphal" Scripture on the Ten Kings (in which there is one Judge/King for each of the first 7 groups of seven days, and then an additional Judge/King for the three subsequent periods, adding up to 10 - all of them acting under the supervision of Dizang/Ksitigarbha). It's fascinating (at least to me) to see an Indian source (Vasubandhu no less) who states that there is "no fixed time", thus leaving the door open at least a crack for legitimizing (or at least not completely ruling out) the 10 Kings model for the intermediate state.

In your page numbering are you referring to the Pruden English translation?

I recently read a great book on Pure Land Buddhism by Master Sheng Yeng where he sticks to the 49 day time frame, but states more than once that the first seven days are the most important.
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Re: Question: Reencarnation with years of break

Post by LKM »

Thanks for the explanation. Could you elaborate more about the 3 years and thereafter for deceased people.
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