Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Arnoud
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Arnoud »

Tata1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:01 pm
Arnoud wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:21 pm I think Bob’s idea to save Rinpoche’s teaching archive is a great one and bears repeating over and over.
Although his solution for providing new students access to the archive or new teachings seems far-fetched and unrealistic, the fact that he is unwilling to give up should give him some credit. No matter how annoyed one may get by his posts.

The archive is being digitalized as it has been stated by the dc several times.

Also the problem with the spirit of Chnn thing is not that its far fetched, the problem is that it contradicts the teaching
Agreed. But I feel my point still stands. Even though this might not be the perfect venue, if everyone just stops trying then for sure the DC will experience its impermanence sooner than it has to.
I concede on the spamming.
mutsuk
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by mutsuk »

oldbob wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:28 pm The key point is that newcomers need an easy and regular way to receive a valid DIrect Introduction.
What is a valid Direct Introduction in your opinion?
dharmafootsteps
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Bob, this Merigar event does not include transmission, it is being arranged largely because a group of people just received transmission from Yeshi. So yes, it's got new people in mind, but those new people who have already received it. Of course, it's also for the rest of the Community, but it's being seen as an introduction to the Community for this new group.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Tata1 »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:56 am Bob, this Merigar event does not include transmission, it is being arranged largely because a group of people just received transmission from Yeshi. So yes, it's got new people in mind, but those new people who have already received it. Of course, it's also for the rest of the Community, but it's being seen as an introduction to the Community for this new group.
Rejoice
oldbob
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by oldbob »

Rejoicing is always good. As a practitioner I rejoice if I hear of one person teaching or being taught the Dharma.

Then how can we make it better?

The absolute numbers of Members or attendees at events are one measure.

Those who actually received a valid Direct Introduction are a different measure.

Only a Dzogchen Master can determine that.

So it is clear that if the new initiates continue and take the course then the absolute number people are happy.

It is clear that if the new initiates attend this course then the SMS Instructors are happy.

It is clear that if the new initiates don’t have any other Direct Introduction to compare with then they are happy.

So maybe “rejoice” is appropriate.

OR

Maybe it would be possible to allow that the World Wide Transmission includes an introduction from the Spirit of Rinpoche or from the collective of the living practitioners who are attending the Worldwide Transmission.

Then many more would get the benefit.

It is clear that Yeshi does not want to take responsibility for the education of the newcomers and the Lung reading requirements of ChNN.

So it is clear that any help that the newcomers can get is of benefit to them.

What about the other 7 billion who might benefit from receiving the precious Dharma Teachings?

A valid Direct Introduction is one which allows the recipient to have confidence that they have received it.

Ordinary mind stops (even if you do not want it to) - and a new way of seeing / being starts. This is different for everyone, but also has similar characteristics for everyone.

Everything after a valid Direct Introduction is the same as before but now informed by luminous clarity where the intellectual mind is at rest and at peace. A valid Direct Introduction introduces the recipient to a new form of non-dual consciousness (instant presence) where the intellect need not function and where thoughts dissolve as they arise. You need not follow your thoughts. This is new and different.

You are no longer in Kansas anymore.

There are many books about the qualities of Dzogchen starting with explanations of spontaneous arising and pure from the beginning. Google ”Dzogchen.”

These books and the 120+ Secondary Practices as taught by ChNN in over 650 retreats are the intellectual and experiential field in which the Direct Introduction experience has a context and is explained - and then developed through the practices.

Going back to the other 7 billion, wouldn’t it be nice if the World Wide Transmission (WWT) of Garab Dorje also was considered a valid Direct Introduction by the powers that be within the IDC? Wouldn't it be nice if those newcomers who could not attend the recent Direct Introduction at Merigar could also attend this teaching?

The role of the Master could be filled by taking the Direct Introduction from the spirit of the Master or by taking the Direct Introduction from the collective of the living lineage holders of the IDC who are attending the WWT. Maybe Yeshi or an "Enlightened Student" could attend the WWT and fulfill the role of the Master.

The key point – again and with joyful resonance, is that there needs to be a regular and easy source receiving valid Direct Introduction and Lung Reading Authorizations within the Dzogchen Community if it is to continue.

:heart:
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

oldbob wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:41 pmMaybe it would be possible to allow that the World Wide Transmission includes an introduction from the Spirit of Rinpoche or from the collective of the living practitioners who are attending the Worldwide Transmission.

Then many more would get the benefit.

It is clear that Yeshi does not want to take responsibility for the education of the newcomers and the Lung reading requirements of ChNN.

So it is clear that any help that the newcomers can get is of benefit to them.

What about the other 7 billion who might benefit from receiving the precious Dharma Teachings?

A valid Direct Introduction is one which allows the recipient to have confidence that they have received it.
Put this way, there is nothing apart from one's karma which prevents anyone from receiving DI from the broadly understood "Spirit" of Rinpoche's right now, no matter how the IDG or anyone else sees it. I would think that the amount of people whose karma allows them to receive DI from Rinpoche in dreams, etc. is impossibly small, too, but it changes very little. Even if someone is that one-in-a-billion-chosen-one and somehow gets DI from Rinpoche here and now, to let what they received grow they need the guidance of a living teacher. And the rest, the 99.999999%, who are not so karmically endowed, simply need a living teacher, full stop.

There are just two ways out of the mess, if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow:

(1) some of our senior practitioners/instructors buckle up, do what is necessary and start teaching, with or without the blessing of the IDG, or
(2) we radically and dramatically alter the very idea of the DC so that it becomes an umbrella institution which helps make the teachings of living Vajrayana teachers available to the world. A noble purpose, btw (but one essentially unrelated to the preservation of Rinpoche's teachings).

That is it, pretty much.

I do not believe that the DC is capable of effecting any change of course at this stage, so probably a blessingless version of the first scenario is all one can cheer for. And of course it is already happening.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:46 pm
(1) some of our senior practitioners/instructors buckle up, do what is necessary and start teaching, with or without the blessing of the IDG, or
(2) we radically and dramatically alter the very idea of the DC so that it becomes an umbrella institution which helps make the teachings of living Vajrayana teachers available to the world. A noble purpose, btw (but one essentially unrelated to the preservation of Rinpoche's teachings).
(3) Find other qualified teachers, who are somewhat numerous, and begin to follow them.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:57 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:46 pm
(1) some of our senior practitioners/instructors buckle up, do what is necessary and start teaching, with or without the blessing of the IDG, or
(2) we radically and dramatically alter the very idea of the DC so that it becomes an umbrella institution which helps make the teachings of living Vajrayana teachers available to the world. A noble purpose, btw (but one essentially unrelated to the preservation of Rinpoche's teachings).
(3) Find other qualified teachers, who are somewhat numerous, and begin to follow them.
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow." If one just wants to practice Vajrayana, things are vastly simpler.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:57 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:46 pm
(1) some of our senior practitioners/instructors buckle up, do what is necessary and start teaching, with or without the blessing of the IDG, or
(2) we radically and dramatically alter the very idea of the DC so that it becomes an umbrella institution which helps make the teachings of living Vajrayana teachers available to the world. A noble purpose, btw (but one essentially unrelated to the preservation of Rinpoche's teachings).
(3) Find other qualified teachers, who are somewhat numerous, and begin to follow them.
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow." If one just wants to practice Vajrayana, things are vastly simpler.
Oh, there are good Dzogchen teachers out there. People get stuck on "only my master," but this is dumb, especially when one is still an ordinary person.
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Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow."
The DC hasn't gone anywhere. Rinpoche is a Buddha now emanating countless bodies to teach and initiate other beings. Countless people from the DC will attain bodhi and do the same. Nothing has changed.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:39 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:57 pm

(3) Find other qualified teachers, who are somewhat numerous, and begin to follow them.
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow." If one just wants to practice Vajrayana, things are vastly simpler.
Oh, there are good Dzogchen teachers out there. People get stuck on "only my master," but this is dumb, especially when one is still an ordinary person.
Naturally. My "Vajrayana" included Dzogchen.

Anyway, for anyone in the DC who still needs the guidance of a living teacher (how many of us do not?), it is obvious what needs to be done.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Virgo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow."
The DC hasn't gone anywhere. Rinpoche is a Buddha now emanating countless bodies to teach and initiate other beings. Countless people from the DC will attain bodhi and do the same. Nothing has changed.

Virgo
Come on.
Of course things have changed.
You can no longer pester Rinpoche with emails. Nor will he intervene when things in the DC are getting out of hand. You cannot get wangs from him, or lungs, or tri. Etc.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Giovanni »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:57 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:46 pm
(1) some of our senior practitioners/instructors buckle up, do what is necessary and start teaching, with or without the blessing of the IDG, or
(2) we radically and dramatically alter the very idea of the DC so that it becomes an umbrella institution which helps make the teachings of living Vajrayana teachers available to the world. A noble purpose, btw (but one essentially unrelated to the preservation of Rinpoche's teachings).
(3) Find other qualified teachers, who are somewhat numerous, and begin to follow them.
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow." If one just wants to practice Vajrayana, things are vastly simpler.
I find it amazing that the nature of what has happened hasn’t sunk in yet, at least among US students. D.C is dead. It’s gone..it is no more. It is finished. It is not coming back in any way similar to the that everyone knows. Move on. Nothing to see.
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

The Longsal terma is so condensed, direct, and to the point. It would be nice if it could continue to be taught and practiced.
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:06 pm
Virgo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:02 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Of course, but what I wrote was "if one is hoping for the DC to survive somehow."
The DC hasn't gone anywhere. Rinpoche is a Buddha now emanating countless bodies to teach and initiate other beings. Countless people from the DC will attain bodhi and do the same. Nothing has changed.

Virgo
Come on.
Of course things have changed.
You can no longer pester Rinpoche with emails. Nor will he intervene when things in the DC are getting out of hand. You cannot get wangs from him, or lungs, or tri. Etc.
So you are going to ignore the fact that he is a Buddha now giving countless teachings to beings who have the karma to interact with him in various world systems? You are going to ignore the fact that when many of his students die, they will do the same? What do you see as the actual point of the teachings? Do you think it is living long as a human being?

Virgo
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by dharmafootsteps »

Dorje Shedrub wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:11 pm The Longsal terma is so condensed, direct, and to the point. It would be nice if it could continue to be taught and practiced.
Speaking of Longsal, one of the curious things about this upcoming retreat at Mergiar is that it's on a Longsal text, and Rinpoche's teachings of that text will be webcast. The text itself is mentioned as "recommended reading" in the description: https://www.merigar.it/en/courses-and-e ... ati-nazer/

Given that this is a retreat for the whole community, including the new people who haven't received any lungs at all, I was surprised. Or has Longsal volume 7 always been something that was open to anyone who has received DI?
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Virgo »

The vajra is indestructible.

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Virgo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:15 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:06 pm
Virgo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:02 pm
The DC hasn't gone anywhere. Rinpoche is a Buddha now emanating countless bodies to teach and initiate other beings. Countless people from the DC will attain bodhi and do the same. Nothing has changed.

Virgo
Come on.
Of course things have changed.
You can no longer pester Rinpoche with emails. Nor will he intervene when things in the DC are getting out of hand. You cannot get wangs from him, or lungs, or tri. Etc.
So you are going to ignore the fact that he is a Buddha now giving countless teachings to beings who have the karma to interact with him in various world systems? You are going to ignore the fact that when many of his students die, they will do the same? What do you see as the actual point of the teachings? Do you think it is living long as a human being?

Virgo
You have lost me here.
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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by Malcolm »

dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:19 pm Has Longsal volume 7 always been something that was open to anyone who has received DI?
Definitely not. They are just trying to work with circumstances as best they know how.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Dzogchen Community of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:33 pm
dharmafootsteps wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:19 pm Has Longsal volume 7 always been something that was open to anyone who has received DI?
Definitely not.
Allegedly, those who took part in Yeshi's event, are authorised to read whatever Rinpoche taught, whatever whatever means here. Maybe someone reads it literally.
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