Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

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KonchogUrgyenNyima
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Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.

Bonus points for anyone who can mention any Rime Sakya connections.

Was empowered for the tradition by kagyu, but my first teachers were Rime Sakyapas and I’m just looking for any non-Samaya breaking info that will help me deepen my understanding.

Dm me personally with anything that might be samaya sensitive.
Malcolm
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:57 pm Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.

Bonus points for anyone who can mention any Rime Sakya connections.

Was empowered for the tradition by kagyu, but my first teachers were Rime Sakyapas and I’m just looking for any non-Samaya breaking info that will help me deepen my understanding.

Dm me personally with anything that might be samaya sensitive.
Yes, from Mal Lotsawa to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo. My teacher, Khenpo Migmar, is a specialist in this system.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:08 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:57 pm Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.

Bonus points for anyone who can mention any Rime Sakya connections.

Was empowered for the tradition by kagyu, but my first teachers were Rime Sakyapas and I’m just looking for any non-Samaya breaking info that will help me deepen my understanding.

Dm me personally with anything that might be samaya sensitive.
Yes, from Mal Lotsawa to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo. My teacher, Khenpo Migmar, is a specialist in this system.
Thanks Malcolm. Is this the five deity system?
Kai lord
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Kai lord »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:57 pm Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.
Tilopa ===> Naropa ====> Two Pamtingpa brothers ====> Sherab Tseg ====> Mal Lotsawa====> Five lords of Sakyapa
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:11 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:08 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:57 pm Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.

Bonus points for anyone who can mention any Rime Sakya connections.

Was empowered for the tradition by kagyu, but my first teachers were Rime Sakyapas and I’m just looking for any non-Samaya breaking info that will help me deepen my understanding.

Dm me personally with anything that might be samaya sensitive.
Yes, from Mal Lotsawa to Sachen Kunga Nyingpo. My teacher, Khenpo Migmar, is a specialist in this system.
Thanks Malcolm. Is this the five deity system?
Both five deity and body mandala sadhanas.
Malcolm
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:34 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:57 pm Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.
Tilopa ===> Naropa ====> Two Pamtingpa brothers ====> Sherab Tseg ====> Mal Lotsawa====> Five lords of Sakyapa
And a few before Tilopa, starting with Ghantapada.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Konchog1 »

Might be the wrong thread but what's the difference between Luipa and Ghantapa anyway? They seem almost identical. Is it just the separate body mandala empowerment?
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

Konchog1 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:21 am Might be the wrong thread but what's the difference between Luipa and Ghantapa anyway? They seem almost identical. Is it just the separate body mandala empowerment?
Luipa system emphasizes creation stage. Ghantapada system emphasizes completion stage. Creation in the former is gradual, instant in the latter.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:29 pm
Kai lord wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:34 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:57 pm Hello all,

Is my understanding correct that Ghantapa’s Chakrasamvara made it into the Sakya tradition?

If this is indeed the case, I’m looking for general information on how exactly this tradition was transmitted into the Sakya lineages.
Tilopa ===> Naropa ====> Two Pamtingpa brothers ====> Sherab Tseg ====> Mal Lotsawa====> Five lords of Sakyapa
And a few before Tilopa, starting with Ghantapada.
Yes but I assumed he already knows it
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Kai lord »

Konchog1 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:21 am Might be the wrong thread but what's the difference between Luipa and Ghantapa anyway? They seem almost identical. Is it just the separate body mandala empowerment?
In addition to what is already said. Luipa divided completion into four yogic stages whereas ghantapa divided it into five stages. The former's fourth stage is equivalent to the latter's fifth stage which is on the path of meditation.

Still trying to wrap my head around on how the other stages in both system corresponds to each other.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:37 am
Konchog1 wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 12:21 am Might be the wrong thread but what's the difference between Luipa and Ghantapa anyway? They seem almost identical. Is it just the separate body mandala empowerment?
Luipa system emphasizes creation stage. Ghantapada system emphasizes completion stage. Creation in the former is gradual, instant in the latter.
Okay since we’re comparing and contrasting, how would the kagyu presentation of the ghantapada tradition be different from the Sakya? Is it just a matter of a subtle difference in view? Are there greater differences?
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:07 pm Okay since we’re comparing and contrasting, how would the kagyu presentation of the ghantapada tradition be different from the Sakya? Is it just a matter of a subtle difference in view? Are there greater differences?
There is a great deal of difference. The Sakya system is based in an uncommon hermeneutical tradition called the "ultimate secret" (guhyānta), which is a special tradition of Naropa's not taught to Marpa.

As far as I know, the Ghantapada tradition in Drikung comes through Shridhara, rather than Marpa. It has the same source as the five deity tradition in Sakya, but a different lineage, and hence the explanations are different, mode of empowerments is different, and so on. It's does not mean one is better than the other, they are just very different expressions of the same mandala.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:19 pm
KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:07 pm Okay since we’re comparing and contrasting, how would the kagyu presentation of the ghantapada tradition be different from the Sakya? Is it just a matter of a subtle difference in view? Are there greater differences?
There is a great deal of difference. The Sakya system is based in an uncommon hermeneutical tradition called the "ultimate secret" (guhyānta), which is a special tradition of Naropa's not taught to Marpa.
Is that tradition somehow related to Vajrayogini?
As far as I know, the Ghantapada tradition in Drikung comes through Shridhara, rather than Marpa. It has the same source as the five deity tradition in Sakya, but a different lineage, and hence the explanations are different, mode of empowerments is different, and so on. It's does not mean one is better than the other, they are just very different expressions of the same mandala.
Yeah very different indeed, in the fivefold Mahamudra, they don't follow Ghantapada breakdown and path on completion stage of Chakrasamvara, they use Vajravarahi and six yogas of Naropa for that instead.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:36 pm
Is that tradition somehow related to Vajrayogini?
Yogini is a part of it, and some would argue, the ultimate expression of it.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:37 pm
Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:36 pm
Is that tradition somehow related to Vajrayogini?
Yogini is a part of it, and some would argue, the ultimate expression of it.
Wow, very motivating. Thanks. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Kai lord »

Anyway since we are on the topic, Drikung Kagyu published a short history on their Vajrayogini/vajravarahi teachings recently, so I thought I would share here.
“At his hermitage in Pushpahari, the pandita Naropa told the king of translators, Marpa, “I am entrusting you with an exceptional Dharma from the Dakini Hearing Lineage which you have never heard of prior to this.” Then using mandalas of sindura, he bestowed the empowerments for the mother Vajra Varahi as the fifteen, seven, and five dakinis, as well as the co-emergent dakini. Relying on the mandala of the guru’s enlightened body, speech, and mind, he gave all the symbol empowerments and pith instructions in their entirety. He then said, “give these to your disciple known as Töpagha, for his enlightened activity will flourish and spread.”

The king of translators, Marpa Lotsawa later told Jetsün Milarepa, “through this supreme gift of pith instructions from the Dakini Hearing Lineage, I will transfer everything to you, fully filling the vase. I can guarantee that these words of mine are without deceit. There is nothing in the pith instructions which has been added or omitted, as the Lama and Yidam are my witness, this I solemnly swear,” and so saying he gave the empowerments and pith instructions in all their entirety to Milarepa.”

“Then when Gampopa first met Milarepa, Jetsün Milarepa said to him, “it is not that the empowerments which have been bestowed upon you prior to this are useless but because of the greater auspiciousness of interdependence, I shall grant you the blessings from my own tradition.” Then based on the mandala of sindura from the tradition of the hearing lineage, he conferred the blessing of Vajra Varahi. Out of all the entirety of empowerments and pith instructions he gave, this Co-emergent Jetsün Vajrayogini is like the innermost heart essence of the exceptional Dakini Hearing Lineage. She has been practiced by all the Kagyu masters of the past, who regarded her as their foremost yidam deity, from Vajradhara up to the present root guru. By practicing her, they encountered the full culmination of experience and realization.”
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

Tilopa ===> Naropa ====> Two Pamtingpa brothers ====> Sherab Tseg ====> Mal Lotsawa====> Five lords of Sakyapa
[/quote]


Does anyone have any literature recommendations for studying this lineage and their life stories?
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:59 pm Anyway since we are on the topic, Drikung Kagyu published a short history on their Vajrayogini/vajravarahi teachings recently, so I thought I would share here.
However, the Yogini practiced in Drikung comes from Lakṣminkara, not Naropa. I've received it.
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by KonchogUrgyenNyima »

As far as I know, the Ghantapada tradition in Drikung comes through Shridhara, rather than Marpa. It has the same source as the five deity tradition in Sakya, but a different lineage, and hence the explanations are different, mode of empowerments is different, and so on. It's does not mean one is better than the other, they are just very different expressions of the same mandala.
[/quote]

I’m assuming that since you say the mode of empowerment is different, this means that I would have to receive the empowerment from a Sakya lama in order to study literature on the Sakya presentation of the ghantapada system?

If I am incorrect in that assumption, do you have literature reccs?
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Re: Sakya Ghantapada Tradition?

Post by Malcolm »

KonchogUrgyenNyima wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:23 pm I’m assuming that since you say the mode of empowerment is different, this means that I would have to receive the empowerment from a Sakya lama in order to study literature on the Sakya presentation of the ghantapada system?
Yes.
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