Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Yeah he waa widely believed to be converted to dharmapala by zhi yi, the founder of Tian Tai sect.
Among some Chinese circles, its even widely believed that he is next on line to take over Sakka as the ruler of thirty three heavens. Or even as the next Jade emperor.
Among some Chinese circles, its even widely believed that he is next on line to take over Sakka as the ruler of thirty three heavens. Or even as the next Jade emperor.
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Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
This stuff really is a bit silly. He's a deified folk hero best known from a novel. Triad members swear their oaths in front of his statue. Shopkeepers offer him incense. His historical connection with the Karmapa is, well, basically nothing.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
What is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
He's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 amWhat is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
He appeared to the present Karmapa in dreams and identified himself.PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:54 amHe's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 amWhat is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Was the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:02 amHe appeared to the present Karmapa in dreams and identified himself.PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:54 amHe's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 am
What is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
I get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:08 amWas the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?
Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
I don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:11 amI get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:08 amWas the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?
Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Maybe choose another religion then. Tibetan buddhism has always had a lot of superstitious folk stuff. That's why it is so cool and we have edgy things like triad gods that fight for us. *shrug*PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 amI don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:11 amI get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:08 am
Was the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?
Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
The perennial debate in Tibetan Buddhism has been authenticity - did the document have a sanskrit antecedent, was the terma validated by someone credible, etc. So I'm being very traditional on this...Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:18 amMaybe choose another religion then. Tibetan buddhism has always had a lot of superstitious folk stuff. That's why it is so cool and we have edgy things like triad gods that fight for us. *shrug*PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 amI don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.
And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
I'm ok with anything prior to the Yuan dynasty. Beyond that, I'll exercise discretion on what I recognize. The Three Kingdoms was composed not earlier than that.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
If you meet both, Mahatma Gandhi and Santa Claus, in a dream, which one is a real person and which one only exists your imagination?
When one understands, as the Karmapa does (and as is taught) the illusory, dream-like nature of our experience to begin with anyway, if you say this one is real and that one is fictional, you would only be expressing the mundane understanding based on peoples samsaric conditioning.
If you say, “but this one was once a real person”, aren’t you really saying, “he (or she) was a real person and not fictional, just as you and I are real”?
But if you are saying that, then you have to identify what makes you “real” ultimately as some kind of ultimately existing “self” which of course is an idea that Buddhism rejects.
On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
When one understands, as the Karmapa does (and as is taught) the illusory, dream-like nature of our experience to begin with anyway, if you say this one is real and that one is fictional, you would only be expressing the mundane understanding based on peoples samsaric conditioning.
If you say, “but this one was once a real person”, aren’t you really saying, “he (or she) was a real person and not fictional, just as you and I are real”?
But if you are saying that, then you have to identify what makes you “real” ultimately as some kind of ultimately existing “self” which of course is an idea that Buddhism rejects.
On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
For a buddha, yes, maybe there is no real difference between Winnie the poo and an actual being one can see with their own eyes, but when looking at things from the point of view of 'relative truth', within that relative perspective we can divide again between true and false. Winnie the poo is not real even within the unreality of the relative truth. As such, he cannot protect anyone. It is the same as if you say there is a wall in the middle of the room. It is not there and you will not bump against it while walking across the room, but you will bump against the actual wall.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
One could say that, if you analyze, then you cannot find even the 'real' wall, but that does not matter in this context.
Edit: I have no opinion for the protector mentioned in this thread, this is a more general response.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
No disagreement here. I’m referring to the context Presented in the OP. If HH Karmapa wants to give fictional characters a job, his perspective will be from the point of ultimate reality.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:29 pmFor a buddha, yes, maybe there is no real difference between Winnie the poo and an actual being one can see with their own eyes, but when looking at things from the point of view of 'relative truth', within that relative perspective we can divide again between true and false. Winnie the poo is not real even within the unreality of the relative truth. As such, he cannot protect anyone. It is the same as if you say there is a wall in the middle of the room. It is not there and you will not bump against it while walking across the room, but you will bump against the actual wall.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
One could say that, if you analyze, then you cannot find even the 'real' wall, but that does not matter in this context.
Edit: I have no opinion for the protector mentioned in this thread, this is a more general response.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
I guess so, but, if that is really the case, then doing any kind of practice related to that protector cannot really have an effect, at least not as potent as that of the practice of the real protectors. So why would he ask people to practice an imaginary protector instead of the non-imaginary ones?PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:35 pmNo disagreement here. I’m referring to the context Presented in the OP. If HH Karmapa wants to give fictional characters a job, his perspective will be from the point of ultimate reality.Aryjna wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:29 pmFor a buddha, yes, maybe there is no real difference between Winnie the poo and an actual being one can see with their own eyes, but when looking at things from the point of view of 'relative truth', within that relative perspective we can divide again between true and false. Winnie the poo is not real even within the unreality of the relative truth. As such, he cannot protect anyone. It is the same as if you say there is a wall in the middle of the room. It is not there and you will not bump against it while walking across the room, but you will bump against the actual wall.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
One could say that, if you analyze, then you cannot find even the 'real' wall, but that does not matter in this context.
Edit: I have no opinion for the protector mentioned in this thread, this is a more general response.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
I'm curious whether you take issue with the common depiction of 伽藍菩薩 as Guan Yu as well? And the connection started with previous Karmapas, so not sure if it needs to be framed as a specifically 17th Karmapa problem.PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:31 amThe perennial debate in Tibetan Buddhism has been authenticity - did the document have a sanskrit antecedent, was the terma validated by someone credible, etc. So I'm being very traditional on this...Toenail wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:18 amMaybe choose another religion then. Tibetan buddhism has always had a lot of superstitious folk stuff. That's why it is so cool and we have edgy things like triad gods that fight for us. *shrug*PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 am
I don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.
And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
I'm ok with anything prior to the Yuan dynasty. Beyond that, I'll exercise discretion on what I recognize. The Three Kingdoms was composed not earlier than that.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Gandhi existed. A person called Guan Yu existed, although he wasn’t seven feet tall and capable of fighting whole armies. Santa Claus was supposedly based on one or more apocryphal historical figures or myths. This isn’t something just in my imagination, these are statements everyone would agree with as we’re all using the same agreed facts.PadmaVonSamba wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm If you meet both, Mahatma Gandhi and Santa Claus, in a dream, which one is a real person and which one only exists your imagination?
Saying “everything is like an illusion in its appearance” doesn’t mean that we can just make shit up and it’s *equivalent* to agreed apparent reality. We don’t deny external reality.When one understands, as the Karmapa does (and as is taught) the illusory, dream-like nature of our experience to begin with anyway, if you say this one is real and that one is fictional, you would only be expressing the mundane understanding based on peoples samsaric conditioning.
We don’t reject observed reality entirely or equate it with what we know to be arbitrary invented concepts. And though some people say that they do that, their actions conveniently refute what they say, because they conduct their lives as if they believed external reality to be valid.If you say, “but this one was once a real person”, aren’t you really saying, “he (or she) was a real person and not fictional, just as you and I are real”?
But if you are saying that, then you have to identify what makes you “real” ultimately as some kind of ultimately existing “self” which of course is an idea that Buddhism rejects.
Come on, that’s just a ridiculous straw man. And it’s not even plausible. People have been putting statues of Guan Yu on altars and offering them incense for centuries and that’s the only reason why he’s being appropriated as a Dharmapala. Nobody puts statues of Winnie on altars and makes offerings to them.On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
If we’re citing the Karmapa as the authority on this, and we consider the Karmapa to be an enlightened being, then we need to consider an alternative, more plausible explanation: that he realized that by promoting this figure to a dharmapala and having offerings made to him, it would create benefit for Chinese disciples, even if there was no supernatural figure to offer to at all. Why isn’t this a more valid explanation? After all, if everything is illusory etc., then you can just make up dharmapalas and it doesn’t matter?
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Maybe it is the folk hero maybe it isnt. I dont see why he could not have reincarnated into an asura or such and know his past life. Or maybe some other deity pretends to be him for the sake of worship. Either way it is a nice point where two cultures can meet.
Edit: or as PeterC says ut is justt skillful means.
Edit: or as PeterC says ut is justt skillful means.
Last edited by Könchok Thrinley on Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
Syncretic folk religion. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a bit silly. We know that the attributes for which Guan Yu is famous were fables made up for the novel anyway. I view the appropriation of him as something done for purely political reasons, past and present.
Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama
I mean, they venerate Sun Wukong as well who does have legitimate connections to Hanmuan despite being completely adapted into a major novel. I’d also forward venerating Santa considering his Nordic origins (whether as Odin, a Saint, or some spirit, who knows?) and Santa Muerte with the modern hype around her. As they say, <<Quand fait, c’est croire!>>PeterC wrote: ↑Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:27 pmSyncretic folk religion. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a bit silly. We know that the attributes for which Guan Yu is famous were fables made up for the novel anyway. I view the appropriation of him as something done for purely political reasons, past and present.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔