Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

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Toenail
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Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Toenail »

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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Kai lord »

Yeah he waa widely believed to be converted to dharmapala by zhi yi, the founder of Tian Tai sect.
Among some Chinese circles, its even widely believed that he is next on line to take over Sakka as the ruler of thirty three heavens. Or even as the next Jade emperor.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

This stuff really is a bit silly. He's a deified folk hero best known from a novel. Triad members swear their oaths in front of his statue. Shopkeepers offer him incense. His historical connection with the Karmapa is, well, basically nothing.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Toenail »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:39 am This stuff really is a bit silly. He's a deified folk hero best known from a novel. Triad members swear their oaths in front of his statue. Shopkeepers offer him incense. His historical connection with the Karmapa is, well, basically nothing.
What is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:39 am This stuff really is a bit silly. He's a deified folk hero best known from a novel. Triad members swear their oaths in front of his statue. Shopkeepers offer him incense. His historical connection with the Karmapa is, well, basically nothing.
What is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
He's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Toenail »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:54 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:39 am This stuff really is a bit silly. He's a deified folk hero best known from a novel. Triad members swear their oaths in front of his statue. Shopkeepers offer him incense. His historical connection with the Karmapa is, well, basically nothing.
What is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
He's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.
He appeared to the present Karmapa in dreams and identified himself.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:02 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:54 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:20 am

What is silly about it? This is very common with worldly protectors. They are worldly. They are basically very powerful pretas with their own character and personality etc. Some are more wrathful, some less.. There are many examples of worldly protectors beings edgy and even harming sentient beings etc. Often it is neccessary that they are reminded of their vows and so on. Especially if you read the life story of Dudjom Lingpa you will find many examples of this. Deification as you call it of folk/war heros and historical people is also very very common in tibetan buddhism. For example a lot of Gyalpos are that. Also think King Gesar.
He's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.
He appeared to the present Karmapa in dreams and identified himself.
Was the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?

Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Toenail »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:08 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:02 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:54 am

He's a minor historical and major fictional character. If he can be turned into a worldly protector, why don't we do pujas for Sinbad the Sailor and Hannibal Lector? They're both pretty edgy and powerful beings.
He appeared to the present Karmapa in dreams and identified himself.
Was the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?

Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
I get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:11 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:08 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:02 am

He appeared to the present Karmapa in dreams and identified himself.
Was the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?

Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
I get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.
I don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.

And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Toenail »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:11 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:08 am

Was the Karmapa reading 《三国演义》 at the time - is that where he got the idea from?

Sure, there was a historical character that this was based on. But most of the stories are fiction. It's not great for the credibility of Dharma lineages that they start offering pujas to folk tales.
I get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.
I don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.

And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
Maybe choose another religion then. Tibetan buddhism has always had a lot of superstitious folk stuff. That's why it is so cool and we have edgy things like triad gods that fight for us. *shrug*
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:18 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:11 am

I get you think it is rubbish. Many people have faith in the Karmapa. I myself am not a follower of him and I do not have much faith. Nevertheless I think it is cool and I do not really see why this is weird. There are hundreds of examples just like this.
I don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.

And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
Maybe choose another religion then. Tibetan buddhism has always had a lot of superstitious folk stuff. That's why it is so cool and we have edgy things like triad gods that fight for us. *shrug*
The perennial debate in Tibetan Buddhism has been authenticity - did the document have a sanskrit antecedent, was the terma validated by someone credible, etc. So I'm being very traditional on this...

I'm ok with anything prior to the Yuan dynasty. Beyond that, I'll exercise discretion on what I recognize. The Three Kingdoms was composed not earlier than that.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

If you meet both, Mahatma Gandhi and Santa Claus, in a dream, which one is a real person and which one only exists your imagination?

When one understands, as the Karmapa does (and as is taught) the illusory, dream-like nature of our experience to begin with anyway, if you say this one is real and that one is fictional, you would only be expressing the mundane understanding based on peoples samsaric conditioning.

If you say, “but this one was once a real person”, aren’t you really saying, “he (or she) was a real person and not fictional, just as you and I are real”?

But if you are saying that, then you have to identify what makes you “real” ultimately as some kind of ultimately existing “self” which of course is an idea that Buddhism rejects.

On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Aryjna »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
:D For a buddha, yes, maybe there is no real difference between Winnie the poo and an actual being one can see with their own eyes, but when looking at things from the point of view of 'relative truth', within that relative perspective we can divide again between true and false. Winnie the poo is not real even within the unreality of the relative truth. As such, he cannot protect anyone. It is the same as if you say there is a wall in the middle of the room. It is not there and you will not bump against it while walking across the room, but you will bump against the actual wall.

One could say that, if you analyze, then you cannot find even the 'real' wall, but that does not matter in this context.

Edit: I have no opinion for the protector mentioned in this thread, this is a more general response.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aryjna wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
:D For a buddha, yes, maybe there is no real difference between Winnie the poo and an actual being one can see with their own eyes, but when looking at things from the point of view of 'relative truth', within that relative perspective we can divide again between true and false. Winnie the poo is not real even within the unreality of the relative truth. As such, he cannot protect anyone. It is the same as if you say there is a wall in the middle of the room. It is not there and you will not bump against it while walking across the room, but you will bump against the actual wall.

One could say that, if you analyze, then you cannot find even the 'real' wall, but that does not matter in this context.

Edit: I have no opinion for the protector mentioned in this thread, this is a more general response.
No disagreement here. I’m referring to the context Presented in the OP. If HH Karmapa wants to give fictional characters a job, his perspective will be from the point of ultimate reality.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Aryjna »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:35 pm
Aryjna wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:29 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
:D For a buddha, yes, maybe there is no real difference between Winnie the poo and an actual being one can see with their own eyes, but when looking at things from the point of view of 'relative truth', within that relative perspective we can divide again between true and false. Winnie the poo is not real even within the unreality of the relative truth. As such, he cannot protect anyone. It is the same as if you say there is a wall in the middle of the room. It is not there and you will not bump against it while walking across the room, but you will bump against the actual wall.

One could say that, if you analyze, then you cannot find even the 'real' wall, but that does not matter in this context.

Edit: I have no opinion for the protector mentioned in this thread, this is a more general response.
No disagreement here. I’m referring to the context Presented in the OP. If HH Karmapa wants to give fictional characters a job, his perspective will be from the point of ultimate reality.
I guess so, but, if that is really the case, then doing any kind of practice related to that protector cannot really have an effect, at least not as potent as that of the practice of the real protectors. So why would he ask people to practice an imaginary protector instead of the non-imaginary ones?
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by jmlee369 »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:31 am
Toenail wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:18 am
PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:15 am

I don't have samaya with the current Karmapa either. Who knows, maybe he did appear, wave his big sword around a bit and declare himself a protector of the Dharma. Maybe the current Karmapa thought it would be a nice way to connect with his Chinese students. I just think it's a bit silly in that it takes the Dharma down the road of being a superstitious folk religion.

And on that note, I need to go and offer tea and biscuits to my Dharmapalas, who are much more powerful than this triad-associated god of war...
Maybe choose another religion then. Tibetan buddhism has always had a lot of superstitious folk stuff. That's why it is so cool and we have edgy things like triad gods that fight for us. *shrug*
The perennial debate in Tibetan Buddhism has been authenticity - did the document have a sanskrit antecedent, was the terma validated by someone credible, etc. So I'm being very traditional on this...

I'm ok with anything prior to the Yuan dynasty. Beyond that, I'll exercise discretion on what I recognize. The Three Kingdoms was composed not earlier than that.
I'm curious whether you take issue with the common depiction of 伽藍菩薩 as Guan Yu as well? And the connection started with previous Karmapas, so not sure if it needs to be framed as a specifically 17th Karmapa problem.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:18 pm If you meet both, Mahatma Gandhi and Santa Claus, in a dream, which one is a real person and which one only exists your imagination?
Gandhi existed. A person called Guan Yu existed, although he wasn’t seven feet tall and capable of fighting whole armies. Santa Claus was supposedly based on one or more apocryphal historical figures or myths. This isn’t something just in my imagination, these are statements everyone would agree with as we’re all using the same agreed facts.
When one understands, as the Karmapa does (and as is taught) the illusory, dream-like nature of our experience to begin with anyway, if you say this one is real and that one is fictional, you would only be expressing the mundane understanding based on peoples samsaric conditioning.
Saying “everything is like an illusion in its appearance” doesn’t mean that we can just make shit up and it’s *equivalent* to agreed apparent reality. We don’t deny external reality.
If you say, “but this one was once a real person”, aren’t you really saying, “he (or she) was a real person and not fictional, just as you and I are real”?

But if you are saying that, then you have to identify what makes you “real” ultimately as some kind of ultimately existing “self” which of course is an idea that Buddhism rejects.
We don’t reject observed reality entirely or equate it with what we know to be arbitrary invented concepts. And though some people say that they do that, their actions conveniently refute what they say, because they conduct their lives as if they believed external reality to be valid.
On the ordinary level, yes, that duality is our experience. But to the realized mind, there is a direct understanding that this is all a projection of the mind. Even Winnie The Pooh can be a Dharma protector.
Come on, that’s just a ridiculous straw man. And it’s not even plausible. People have been putting statues of Guan Yu on altars and offering them incense for centuries and that’s the only reason why he’s being appropriated as a Dharmapala. Nobody puts statues of Winnie on altars and makes offerings to them.

If we’re citing the Karmapa as the authority on this, and we consider the Karmapa to be an enlightened being, then we need to consider an alternative, more plausible explanation: that he realized that by promoting this figure to a dharmapala and having offerings made to him, it would create benefit for Chinese disciples, even if there was no supernatural figure to offer to at all. Why isn’t this a more valid explanation? After all, if everything is illusory etc., then you can just make up dharmapalas and it doesn’t matter?
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Maybe it is the folk hero maybe it isnt. I dont see why he could not have reincarnated into an asura or such and know his past life. Or maybe some other deity pretends to be him for the sake of worship. Either way it is a nice point where two cultures can meet. :hug:

Edit: or as PeterC says ut is justt skillful means.
Last edited by Könchok Thrinley on Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by PeterC »

jmlee369 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:19 pm
I'm curious whether you take issue with the common depiction of 伽藍菩薩 as Guan Yu as well? And the connection started with previous Karmapas, so not sure if it needs to be framed as a specifically 17th Karmapa problem.
Syncretic folk religion. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a bit silly. We know that the attributes for which Guan Yu is famous were fables made up for the novel anyway. I view the appropriation of him as something done for purely political reasons, past and present.
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Re: Worldy protector of the Karmapa Sangharama

Post by Tenma »

PeterC wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:27 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:19 pm
I'm curious whether you take issue with the common depiction of 伽藍菩薩 as Guan Yu as well? And the connection started with previous Karmapas, so not sure if it needs to be framed as a specifically 17th Karmapa problem.
Syncretic folk religion. Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a bit silly. We know that the attributes for which Guan Yu is famous were fables made up for the novel anyway. I view the appropriation of him as something done for purely political reasons, past and present.
I mean, they venerate Sun Wukong as well who does have legitimate connections to Hanmuan despite being completely adapted into a major novel. I’d also forward venerating Santa considering his Nordic origins (whether as Odin, a Saint, or some spirit, who knows?) and Santa Muerte with the modern hype around her. As they say, <<Quand fait, c’est croire!>>
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