Evolution

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Malcolm
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Evolution

Post by Malcolm »

[Mod note:] Because the quoted person didn't respond to this initial question by Malcolm, but others couldn't resist discussing the topic of evolution, therefore a brand-new thread is being granted here just for this matter. The topic was split from here: https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 49#p633749


Lavender-Thief wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:07 pm Buddhism is said quite often to be non-dogmatic.
But when reading about the 'ten fetters', I discovered the second one, which is 'vicikitsa': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicikitsa
Translated as 'doubt' or 'indecision' about the 4 noble truths & dependent origination.

But shouldn't buddhist teachings be able to put in doubt, in order to be considered non-dogmatic?
Do you doubt evolution?
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Re: Evolution

Post by Sādhaka »

I don’t doubt evolution; I just doubt how it is usually presented to us
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Re: Evolution

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:05 am I don’t doubt evolution; I just doubt how it is usually presented to us
It’s mathematical.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Virgo »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:05 am I don’t doubt evolution; I just doubt how it is usually presented to us
What is it that you doubt? The speed of mutations?

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Re: Evolution

Post by Sādhaka »

To Malcolm and Virgo:

The annihilationist-materialist presentation of “evolution” is pretty inconsistent with rebirth.

Mainstream scientismistic ‘evolution’ is actually more inline with general deism—or even creationism—than it would be with rebirth; the way I see it anyway.

But I guess if you look into things hard enough, you can make anything out of anything.

BTW, for whatever qualities Pythagoras may have had; I’d prefer Letters over numbers
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Re: Evolution

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:20 pm The annihilationist-materialist presentation of “evolution” is pretty inconsistent with rebirth.
Evolution theory and karma/rebirth are two completely different things.
One has to do with the immediate and constant near-replication of instances of consciousness and the other has to do with biological adaptation of a species to its physical environment.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:20 pm To Malcolm and Virgo:

The annihilationist-materialist presentation of “evolution” is pretty inconsistent with rebirth.
Not really. Evolution just describes natural selection, and is presently used to mathematically predict adaptations in the environment. Yes, that’s right, evolution is an empirical science whose hypothesis can be falsified.

It does not contradict rebirth.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:01 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:20 pm To Malcolm and Virgo:

The annihilationist-materialist presentation of “evolution” is pretty inconsistent with rebirth.
Not really. Evolution just describes natural selection, and is presently used to mathematically predict adaptations in the environment. Yes, that’s right, evolution is an empirical science whose hypothesis can be falsified.

It does not contradict rebirth.
According to Buddha we are in a constant cycle of devolution from deities to hell beings and now we are in the Kali Yuga. Darwin's theory seems to explain the phase of plant and animal life.
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Re: Evolution

Post by DNS »

Most Buddhists have no problem or issue with the truth of biological evolution. According to rebirth, one can be born a human and an animal in a later, future life or vice versa. We have that 'spiritual' connection with animals via rebirth, therefore, it's perfectly compatible with the biological reality.

Rebirth does not 'prove' evolution nor does evolution 'prove' rebirth; but they are compatible. Think of some theistic religions which state humans are not animals, but were created in God's image, etc. Evolution would not be compatible with those religious beliefs (for creationists). No issue with Buddhism.

See also: https://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=131

One of the biggest misconceptions about evolution is that apes and monkeys are supposedly transitioning into humans. A chimpanzee doesn't 'become' and transition to a human. We share common ancestors with that species. We share a recent history* with them through common ancestors, on the primate family tree.

*recent history, geologically speaking, perhaps around 10 to 30 million years ago.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Aemilius »

Crazywisdom wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:39 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:01 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:20 pm To Malcolm and Virgo:

The annihilationist-materialist presentation of “evolution” is pretty inconsistent with rebirth.
Not really. Evolution just describes natural selection, and is presently used to mathematically predict adaptations in the environment. Yes, that’s right, evolution is an empirical science whose hypothesis can be falsified.

It does not contradict rebirth.
According to Buddha we are in a constant cycle of devolution from deities to hell beings and now we are in the Kali Yuga. Darwin's theory seems to explain the phase of plant and animal life.
One small kalpa consists of thousand cycles of devolution and upward evolution, in which the beings' merit and lifespan first decrease and then increase again, one thousand times. This explanation is found for example in Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Formation of Worlds Chapter of Avatamsaka Sutra.
Last edited by Aemilius on Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Aemilius »

DNS wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:49 pm Most Buddhists have no problem or issue with the truth of biological evolution. According to rebirth, one can be born a human and an animal in a later, future life or vice versa. We have that 'spiritual' connection with animals via rebirth, therefore, it's perfectly compatible with the biological reality.

Rebirth does not 'prove' evolution nor does evolution 'prove' rebirth; but they are compatible. Think of some theistic religions which state humans are not animals, but were created in God's image, etc. Evolution would not be compatible with those religious beliefs (for creationists). No issue with Buddhism.

See also: https://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=131

One of the biggest misconceptions about evolution is that apes and monkeys are supposedly transitioning into humans. A chimpanzee doesn't 'become' and transition to a human. We share common ancestors with that species. We share a recent history* with them through common ancestors, on the primate family tree.

*recent history, geologically speaking, perhaps around 10 to 30 million years ago.
There is a short sutta in which Tathagata says that the ocean may dry up and Mt Meru may crumble, but the beings' rebirth does not end. The same material is found in the much longer sutra/sutta about the Seven Suns (Sapta/Satta Suriya sutra/sutta). Now the question is: given that there are million times more animals, fishes, crustaceans, reptiles, birds, ants other insects, than there are humans, are these all reborn at the end of the kalpa when this world is destroyed, in the higher Brahma heavens? Do they(we) all attain a body or form of a Deva or Brahma (or a state of formlessness in Arupyadhatu) ?
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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: Evolution

Post by Queequeg »

I see no particular incongruity between the scientific theory of evolution and Buddhist teachings on karma and rebirth. In fact, I think understanding scientific evolution can help to ameliorate the moralistic distortions on teachings on karma and rebirth.

Evolution basically says mutations that improve a being's chances of procreation tend to endure while those that decrease chances of procreation tend to peter out. Karma basically says, there are factors conducive to understanding and others that are neutral at best, but usually detrimental to understanding. With karma, though, the detrimental effects don't just vanish, but become exponentially worse until beings are writhing in hell. Aside from that, we see evolution and karma complement each other in terms of the emergence of intelligence - the traits that allow human beings to awaken happen to be the same traits that have made us an incredibly successful species that is capable of manipulating the material world to a remarkable degree. Whereas science assumes a position of neutrality as to whether the emergence of intelligence is good or bad, in Buddhism, the emergence of intelligence is a categorical good which is a prerequisite to the ultimate goal of awakening.

I guess humanity will find out if it can work its way out of material problems it has created to continue to procreate and continue to provide opportunities for beings to appear here among us and awaken.
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Re: Evolution

Post by DNS »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:51 am There is a short sutta in which Tathagata says that the ocean may dry up and Mt Meru may crumble, but the beings' rebirth does not end. The same material is found in the much longer sutra/sutta about the Seven Suns (Sapta/Satta Suriya sutra/sutta). Now the question is: given that there are million times more animals, fishes, crustaceans, reptiles, birds, ants other insects, than there are humans, are these all reborn at the end of the kalpa when this world is destroyed, in the higher Brahma heavens? Do they(we) all attain a body or form of a Deva or Brahma (or a state of formlessness in Arupyadhatu) ?
I am more familiar with the Pali (Canon) tradition and according to that, the beings in realms 1-11 (or maybe it's 1-16) are reborn in another world system (solar system), if the current world system we live in is destroyed. Those in the higher deva realms continue to exist there until they get reborn.

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Re: Evolution

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:51 am Now the question is: given that there are million times more animals, fishes, crustaceans, reptiles, birds, ants other insects, than there are humans, are these all reborn at the end of the kalpa when this world is destroyed, in the higher Brahma heavens? Do they(we) all attain a body or form of a Deva or Brahma (or a state of formlessness in Arupyadhatu) ?
There are a few existing explanations to that, if the single world system (planetary system) is destroyed by fire up to the first Dhyana or Mahabrahma heaven, then the sentinel beings within that world system and below the second dhyana heaven will either be reborn in the second dhyana heaven that will be immune to the destruction by fire or reborn in other planetary systems or single world systems that have not yet undergone the fiery destruction.

After the eons of destruction and dissolution are over, when the single world system is starting to form again. Those beings from second dhyana heavens will descend onto the lower realms and start to repopulate those realms. The first of them to do so will become Brahma, followed by his ministers and so on.

After seven cycles of destruction by fire, the eighth one will be destruction by water and it will affect a "thousand" single world systems (solar system) and up to the second dhyana heaven. The sentinel being within that thousand world system and below the third dhyana heaven will once again either be reborn in the third dhyana heaven that will be immune to the destruction by water or reborn in other solar systems or "thousand" world systems that have not yet undergone the watery destruction

And process is once repeated for the destruction by wind (After seven times destruction by water and 56 times fiery destruction) which affects a "million" world systems (Galaxy) and up to the third dhyana heaven.

And since trichiliocosm or a "billion" world systems (universe) is never going to get destroyed by fire, water or wind all at once. So there are always some world systems available for beings to transmigrate through rebirth.

Only the fourth dhyana heaven is said to be untouched by fire, water or wind. However, lifespan of those beings who dwell there, are not infinite, they will die eventually and descend or for those in the pure abodes, achieve liberation from Samara.

According to the scriptures, formless devas don't have a physical location of dwelling as they are mind or consciousness only beings. However I speculate that their "physical forms" are invisible energy field of subtle particles enclosed in a spherical dimensional realm limited by the extent or reach of their consciousness.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:29 pmHowever I speculate that their "physical forms" are invisible energy field of subtle particles enclosed in a spherical dimensional realm limited by the extent or reach of their consciousness.
According to Dzogchen teachings, they have subtle bodies made of five elements. "Formless" meaning virtually no matter.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:57 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:29 pmHowever I speculate that their "physical forms" are invisible energy field of subtle particles enclosed in a spherical dimensional realm limited by the extent or reach of their consciousness.
According to Dzogchen teachings, they have subtle bodies made of five elements. "Formless" meaning virtually no matter.
I was thinking about the "space particles" from Kalachakra cosmology when I wrote my speculation in my previous post.

Wasn't familiar with Dzogchen cosmology but its very interesting to know Dzogchen differentiates between coarse and subtle elements even in their cosmology
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Re: Evolution

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Kai lord wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:29 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:51 am Now the question is: given that there are million times more animals, fishes, crustaceans, reptiles, birds, ants other insects, than there are humans, are these all reborn at the end of the kalpa when this world is destroyed, in the higher Brahma heavens? Do they(we) all attain a body or form of a Deva or Brahma (or a state of formlessness in Arupyadhatu) ?
There are a few existing explanations to that, if the single world system (planetary system) is destroyed by fire up to the first Dhyana or Mahabrahma heaven, then the sentinel beings within that world system and below the second dhyana heaven will either be reborn in the second dhyana heaven that will be immune to the destruction by fire or reborn in other planetary systems or single world systems that have not yet undergone the fiery destruction.

After the eons of destruction and dissolution are over, when the single world system is starting to form again. Those beings from second dhyana heavens will descend onto the lower realms and start to repopulate those realms. The first of them to do so will become Brahma, followed by his ministers and so on.
In Abhidharmakosha bhashyam a small world system is one thousand four continent worlds (i.e. one thousand solar systems with planets). Then there are also the middle and great world systems. The AKB Vyakhya says that the thousand four continent worlds in a world system are created and destroyed at the same time. I.e. one thousand solar systems are created and destroyed at the same time. It is not quite clear if this applies to the middle and great world systems also, based on the short quotation from the Vyakhya.
AKB does not support your view that individual four continent worlds are created and destroyed independently (of other four continent worlds in a thousandfold or larger world system.)
(AKB p. 469)
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Re: Evolution

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:25 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:29 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:51 am Now the question is: given that there are million times more animals, fishes, crustaceans, reptiles, birds, ants other insects, than there are humans, are these all reborn at the end of the kalpa when this world is destroyed, in the higher Brahma heavens? Do they(we) all attain a body or form of a Deva or Brahma (or a state of formlessness in Arupyadhatu) ?
There are a few existing explanations to that, if the single world system (planetary system) is destroyed by fire up to the first Dhyana or Mahabrahma heaven, then the sentinel beings within that world system and below the second dhyana heaven will either be reborn in the second dhyana heaven that will be immune to the destruction by fire or reborn in other planetary systems or single world systems that have not yet undergone the fiery destruction.

After the eons of destruction and dissolution are over, when the single world system is starting to form again. Those beings from second dhyana heavens will descend onto the lower realms and start to repopulate those realms. The first of them to do so will become Brahma, followed by his ministers and so on.
In Abhidharmakosha bhashyam a small world system is one thousand four continent worlds (i.e. one thousand solar systems with planets). Then there are also the middle and great world systems. The AKB Vyakhya says that the thousand four continent worlds in a world system are created and destroyed at the same time. I.e. one thousand solar systems are created and destroyed at the same time. It is not quite clear if this applies to the middle and great world systems also, based on the short quotation from the Vyakhya.
AKB does not support your view that individual four continent worlds are created and destroyed independently (of other four continent worlds in a thousandfold or larger world system.)
(AKB p. 469)
It and Chim only discuss the destruction (56 times) of a given world system in chapter three. The world is destroyed up to the level of the fourth dhyāna plane, excluding it because the pure abodes are located there. I have never seen this other description of Kai's. The other three form realms are destroyed by fire, air, and water respectively.
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Re: Evolution

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 7:25 pm
Kai lord wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:29 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:51 am Now the question is: given that there are million times more animals, fishes, crustaceans, reptiles, birds, ants other insects, than there are humans, are these all reborn at the end of the kalpa when this world is destroyed, in the higher Brahma heavens? Do they(we) all attain a body or form of a Deva or Brahma (or a state of formlessness in Arupyadhatu) ?
There are a few existing explanations to that, if the single world system (planetary system) is destroyed by fire up to the first Dhyana or Mahabrahma heaven, then the sentinel beings within that world system and below the second dhyana heaven will either be reborn in the second dhyana heaven that will be immune to the destruction by fire or reborn in other planetary systems or single world systems that have not yet undergone the fiery destruction.

After the eons of destruction and dissolution are over, when the single world system is starting to form again. Those beings from second dhyana heavens will descend onto the lower realms and start to repopulate those realms. The first of them to do so will become Brahma, followed by his ministers and so on.
In Abhidharmakosha bhashyam a small world system is one thousand four continent worlds (i.e. one thousand solar systems with planets). Then there are also the middle and great world systems. The AKB Vyakhya says that the thousand four continent worlds in a world system are created and destroyed at the same time. I.e. one thousand solar systems are created and destroyed at the same time. It is not quite clear if this applies to the middle and great world systems also, based on the short quotation from the Vyakhya.
AKB does not support your view that individual four continent worlds are created and destroyed independently (of other four continent worlds in a thousandfold or larger world system.)
(AKB p. 469)

Well, there are two interpretations of what constitute a single world system in my copy of Abhidharmakosa bhsayam:
What are the dimensions of the houses of the Yamas and the other gods?

According to one opinion, the houses of the four types of higher gods of Yama have the dimension of the summit of Meru.

According to others, the dimension of the First Dhyana is the dimension of the universe (world system) with its four continents; that of the Second, the Third, and the Fourth Dhyana is, respectively, the dimension of a small, medium and great chiliocosm.

According to anothers, the first three Dhyanas have, respectively, the dimension of a small, medium and great chiliocosm; the Fourth Dhyana is without measure.
Basically, I used the first interpretation (bold above) in which the dimension of the First Dhyana is the dimension of a world system with its four continents; and you selected the second one below it. And I also double checked with this book on Buddhist cosmology by this Japanese author.


Buddhist Cosmology: Philosophy and Origins


And his definition of a single world system in that book, was taken from Abhidharmakosa as well and he too followed the first interpretation.

Furthermore according to Vedic cosmology, Brahma also has a lifespan of one mahakalpa but the difference is he resides at the top of Mount Meru instead. And since one world system can only have one mount Meru, we can deduce that a Brahma is found in every single world system rather than a thousand.

Next, we have the following from abhidharmakosa that mention the limit of destruction.
What is the upper limit of the destructions?

Three Dhyanas, beginning with the second, are, in order, the top of the destructions; by reason of the community of the nature of destructions and the vices of the first three Dhyanas. As for the Fourth Dhyana, no destruaion, by reason of its non-agitation: this is not that it is eternal, for its mansions are produced and perish along with the beings who live therein.

1. The Second Dhyana is the limit of the destruaion by fire: everything below it is burned; the Third Dhyana is the limit of the
destruaion by water: everything below it is dissolved;
the Fourth Dhyana is the limit of the destruaion by wind: everything below it is dispersed. "The top of the destruaion" is the name of that which
remains when the destruaion is finished.
The heaven of the First Dhyana then perishes by fire: the vice or imperfeaion of the First Dhyana is vitarka-vtcdra\ these burn the mind and are thus similar to fire.
So according to the first interpretation that the spatial extent of the first dhyana heaven is a single world system, it would follow that (from the above verses) that both will be destroyed by fire while second dhyana along with a thousand world system is destroyed by water, etc.


Finally in relate to the Aṅguttara Nikāya sutta on the "THE SERMON OF THE SEVEN SUNS" which speak about the fiery destruction in more detail:
"Impermanent, O monks, are the constituents of existence, unstable, non-eternal: so much so, that this alone is enough to weary and disgust one with all constituent things, and emancipate therefrom. Sineru, monks, the monarch of montains, is eighty-four thousand leagues1 in length and breadth; eighty-four thousand lagues deep in the great ocean, and eighty-four thousand above it............


............. After a last vast interval, a seventh sun appears, and then, monks, this great earth, and Sineru, the monarch of mountains, flare and blaze, and become one mass of flame. And now, from earth and mountains burning and consuming, a spark is carried by the wind and goes as far as the worlds of God; and the peaks of Mount Sineru, burning, consuming, perishing, go down in one vast mass of fire and crumble for an hundred, yea, five hundred leagues. And of this great earth, monks, and Sineru, the monarch of mountains, when consumed and burnt, neither ashes nor soot remains. Just as when ghee or oil is consumed and burnt, monks, neither ashes nor soot remains, so it is with the great earth and Mount Sineru.
Both the great earth and mount sineru (Sumeru) above are clearly referring to a single system above rather than a thousand different systems and this kinda of makes sense if you think about modern cosmology in which our Sun will expand into a red giant after a series of gradual expansion stages within a few billions years. That phenomenon clearly mirrors to that scenario described by seven suns sermons. That red giant expansion will not wiped out planets in other solar systems, not even if our sun goes supernova which it will not.

BTW although its understandable why many Buddhists think that a single world system = solar system but I don't agree on that because in modern cosmology only the inner 3 planets will be destroyed by sun's future expansion into a red giant. The outer planets will not be destroyed, so a large part of the solar system will remain intact. Contradicting the scenario stated in the scripture.

So because of that I tend to equate a single world system with a planetary system of an earth like planet with its moon (s). Of course all of this is just parts of my idle speculation when I watched the stars at night. I used to write about all of that in full details back in the old Buddhist forum more than a decade ago before it got wiped out by some or a hacker(s).
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Re: Evolution

Post by Kim O'Hara »

While we're talking cosmology and science ... the astronomers have just got a new toy, the James Webb telescope.
Here are some of the world systems it can see - https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/202 ... /101229070

:coffee:
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