No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Leaves of Light
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 No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Leaves of Light »

With Longchenpa's Seven Treasuries, some or all of all of them have been translated into Enlgish with the glaring and sole exception of arguably the key text of the set, namely the  Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle (Tib. ཐེག་མཆོག་མཛོད་, Tekchok Dzö, Wyl. theg mchog mdzod). Given that all of the "17 Tantras" have been translated into English at least once, and Longchenpa's exegesis on them in his Treasure/Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle is indispensable for comprehending them, it's a great shame that the latter hasn't been translated, not even the first chapter or chapters. Does anyone know how this situation transpired and if there is any prospect of it being remedied?
Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

Leaves of Light wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:18 am With Longchenpa's Seven Treasuries, some or all of all of them have been translated into Enlgish with the glaring and sole exception of arguably the key text of the set, namely the  Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle (Tib. ཐེག་མཆོག་མཛོད་, Tekchok Dzö, Wyl. theg mchog mdzod). Given that all of the "17 Tantras" have been translated into English at least once, and Longchenpa's exegesis on them in his Treasure/Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle is indispensable for comprehending them, it's a great shame that the latter hasn't been translated, not even the first chapter or chapters. Does anyone know how this situation transpired and if there is any prospect of it being remedied?
There is little point in translating it, until all the available commentariat sources he relied upon have been translated first, since he cribs large sections of these materials without attribution.
Leaves of Light
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:07 am
Leaves of Light wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:18 am With Longchenpa's Seven Treasuries, some or all of all of them have been translated into Enlgish with the glaring and sole exception of arguably the key text of the set, namely the  Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle (Tib. ཐེག་མཆོག་མཛོད་, Tekchok Dzö, Wyl. theg mchog mdzod). Given that all of the "17 Tantras" have been translated into English at least once, and Longchenpa's exegesis on them in his Treasure/Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle is indispensable for comprehending them, it's a great shame that the latter hasn't been translated, not even the first chapter or chapters. Does anyone know how this situation transpired and if there is any prospect of it being remedied?
There is little point in translating it, until all the available commentariat sources he relied upon have been translated first, since he cribs large sections of these materials without attribution.
Which commentaries are they, by whom? And wouldn't it still be feasible to get some value out of the next notwithstanding that? For example, even the names of the first three chapters/sections quoted by Rigpawiki surely suggest that therein are contained precious and invaluable Dharma teachings helpful for general understanding of the Dharma and Dzogchen pith instruction transmission tradition in particular:

1.How the teacher (does this refer to Garab Dorje or Shakyamuni Buddha?) came into this world system.
2. An explanation of world environments and the beings therein.
3. The spread of the Dharma.

Even the first chapter alone must contain a wealth of invaluable doctrinal treasures, even if there are unattritbuted secondary sources included by the author Longchenpa which might make it harder to understand.
Archie2009
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Archie2009 »

David Higgings - The Philosophical Foundations of Classical rDzogs chen in Tibet: Investigating the Distinction Between Dualistic Mind (sems) and Primordial Knowing (ye shes)

Higgings translates two excerpts from the fourteenth chapter of the Theg mchog mdzod. He also translates the Sems dang ye shes kyi dris lan.

academia.edu download

Paperbook:
https://wstb.univie.ac.at/product/wstb-no-78/
https://shop.garudabooks.ch/en/the-phil ... zog-c.html
Kai lord
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Kai lord »

Leaves of Light wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:41 am
1.How the teacher (does this refer to Garab Dorje or Shakyamuni Buddha?) came into this world system.
Both. Since Shakayumi is 12th of The Twelve Buddhas of Dzogchen mentioned.
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Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

Leaves of Light wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:41 am
Which commentaries are they, by whom?
There are six such commentaries that survive, plus some ancillary texts, two of which I have translated and published through wisdom.


And wouldn't it still be feasible to get some value out of the next notwithstanding that? For example, even the names of the first three chapters/sections quoted by Rigpawiki surely suggest that therein are contained precious and invaluable Dharma teachings helpful for general understanding of the Dharma and Dzogchen pith instruction transmission tradition in particular:

1.How the teacher (does this refer to Garab Dorje or Shakyamuni Buddha?) came into this world system.
2. An explanation of world environments and the beings therein.
3. The spread of the Dharma.

Even the first chapter alone must contain a wealth of invaluable doctrinal treasures, even if there are unattritbuted secondary sources included by the author Longchenpa which might make it harder to understand.

All of this information comes from the Vima Nyinthig. And can be found in many places in English already, such as Dudjom big red book. Of course the Thegchok Dzod is important, but it requires knowledge and expertise that is quite rare for the reason I mentioned above.
Leaves of Light
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:51 pm
Leaves of Light wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:41 am
Which commentaries are they, by whom?
There are six such commentaries that survive, plus some ancillary texts, two of which I have translated and published through wisdom.
Would you be willing to share the names of the translated texts? Is it "Buddhahood in This Life"?

And wouldn't it still be feasible to get some value out of the next notwithstanding that? For example, even the names of the first three chapters/sections quoted by Rigpawiki surely suggest that therein are contained precious and invaluable Dharma teachings helpful for general understanding of the Dharma and Dzogchen pith instruction transmission tradition in particular:

1.How the teacher (does this refer to Garab Dorje or Shakyamuni Buddha?) came into this world system.
2. An explanation of world environments and the beings therein.
3. The spread of the Dharma.

Even the first chapter alone must contain a wealth of invaluable doctrinal treasures, even if there are unattritbuted secondary sources included by the author Longchenpa which might make it harder to understand.
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:51 pm All of this information comes from the Vima Nyinthig. And can be found in many places in English already, such as Dudjom big red book. Of course the Thegchok Dzod is important, but it requires knowledge and expertise that is quite rare for the reason I mentioned above.
It would be still be good to read the account of it in Longchenpa's own words. Also, isn't the rare knowledge and expertise required to study the Thegchok Dzod, very much the same as that required to make use of the 17 Tantras themselves? Since the 17 Tantras have all been translated into English, some of them by multiple hands, and the Thegchok Dzod is apparently the premier compiled commentary on them, then it seems logical that it would also be available to the same students as those of the 17 Tantras. Especially since all the other six treasuries of Longchenpa have by and large, with the exception of the Wish-Fulfilling Treasury or Yishyin Dzod, been translated and published.
Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

Leaves of Light wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:48 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:51 pm
Leaves of Light wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:41 am
Which commentaries are they, by whom?
There are six such commentaries that survive, plus some ancillary texts, two of which I have translated and published through wisdom.
Would you be willing to share the names of the translated texts? Is it "Buddhahood in This Life"?

And wouldn't it still be feasible to get some value out of the next notwithstanding that? For example, even the names of the first three chapters/sections quoted by Rigpawiki surely suggest that therein are contained precious and invaluable Dharma teachings helpful for general understanding of the Dharma and Dzogchen pith instruction transmission tradition in particular:

1.How the teacher (does this refer to Garab Dorje or Shakyamuni Buddha?) came into this world system.
2. An explanation of world environments and the beings therein.
3. The spread of the Dharma.

Even the first chapter alone must contain a wealth of invaluable doctrinal treasures, even if there are unattritbuted secondary sources included by the author Longchenpa which might make it harder to understand.
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:51 pm All of this information comes from the Vima Nyinthig. And can be found in many places in English already, such as Dudjom big red book. Of course the Thegchok Dzod is important, but it requires knowledge and expertise that is quite rare for the reason I mentioned above.
It would be still be good to read the account of it in Longchenpa's own words. Also, isn't the rare knowledge and expertise required to study the Thegchok Dzod, very much the same as that required to make use of the 17 Tantras themselves? Since the 17 Tantras have all been translated into English, some of them by multiple hands, and the Thegchok Dzod is apparently the premier compiled commentary on them, then it seems logical that it would also be available to the same students as those of the 17 Tantras. Especially since all the other six treasuries of Longchenpa have by and large, with the exception of the Wish-Fulfilling Treasury or Yishyin Dzod, been translated and published.
In my opinion, translating these Longchenpa texts, as well as the other translations of the seventeen tantras, including my own translations of the rang shar and rang grol have been done backwards. But now, with the translations of the commentaries of the Tantra Without Syllables and the Blazing Lamp we are headed in the right direction.

The translations of the seventeen tantras absent their available commentaries are of limited valuu.

For example, nearly every line of the first chapter of the six dimensions tantra refers to specific practice, which is not apparent from the root text. Without the commentary one simply cannot understand the real meaning of the text. The same applies to the rest of the seventeen tantras
Leaves of Light
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:42 am The translations of the seventeen tantras absent their available commentaries are of limited valuu.

For example, nearly every line of the first chapter of the six dimensions tantra refers to specific practice, which is not apparent from the root text. Without the commentary one simply cannot understand the real meaning of the text. The same applies to the rest of the seventeen tantras
Couldn't that be an argument in favor of a text like the Thekchok Dzöd being made available, since it presumably offers some practical and scholastic guidance to that class of literature? Especially since for better or for worse, the 17 Tantras are available in English.
Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

Leaves of Light wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:42 am The translations of the seventeen tantras absent their available commentaries are of limited valuu.

For example, nearly every line of the first chapter of the six dimensions tantra refers to specific practice, which is not apparent from the root text. Without the commentary one simply cannot understand the real meaning of the text. The same applies to the rest of the seventeen tantras
Couldn't that be an argument in favor of a text like the Thekchok Dzöd being made available, since it presumably offers some practical and scholastic guidance to that class of literature? Especially since for better or for worse, the 17 Tantras are available in English.
There is merit to a systematic project of translating the basic commentaries before the theg mchog mdzod. The TCD is invaluable for Longchenpa’s insights into the 17 tantras, but without Vimalamitra’s commentaries, much of what is alluded to in Longchenpa’s corpus remains obscure, and this is obvious in all the 7 treasures that have thus far been translated. For example, in order to elucidate points in the Tshig don mdzod, Khenpo Namdrol frequently refers to these commentaries. So as a matter of principle, i think my approach is more sound.
Leaves of Light
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Leaves of Light »

Archie2009 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:44 am David Higgings - The Philosophical Foundations of Classical rDzogs chen in Tibet: Investigating the Distinction Between Dualistic Mind (sems) and Primordial Knowing (ye shes)

Higgings translates two excerpts from the fourteenth chapter of the Theg mchog mdzod. He also translates the Sems dang ye shes kyi dris lan.

academia.edu download

Paperbook:
https://wstb.univie.ac.at/product/wstb-no-78/
https://shop.garudabooks.ch/en/the-phil ... zog-c.html
I didn't know David Higgins had translated those sections of the text - thank you!
Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

reader wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:03 am Some chapters here https://www.academia.edu/43208880/Longc ... e_Homeland
:rolling:
stoneinfocus
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by stoneinfocus »

reader wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:03 am Some chapters here https://www.academia.edu/43208880/Longc ... e_Homeland
Well that's...certainly a very novel way to translate trikaya....

Also, "splendid career", "basic career"...these are some really baffling translation choices lol
Last edited by stoneinfocus on Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:08 pm
reader wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:03 am Some chapters here https://www.academia.edu/43208880/Longc ... e_Homeland
Well that's...certainly a very novel way to translate trikaya....

Also, "splendid career", "basic career"...these are some really baffling translation choices lol
My favorite:

Rockstar Illusion Continuum (Mayavajra Tantra)
stoneinfocus
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by stoneinfocus »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:20 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:08 pm
reader wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:03 am Some chapters here https://www.academia.edu/43208880/Longc ... e_Homeland
Well that's...certainly a very novel way to translate trikaya....

Also, "splendid career", "basic career"...these are some really baffling translation choices lol
My favorite:

Rockstar Illusion Continuum (Mayavajra Tantra)
:rolling:
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ManiThePainter
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by ManiThePainter »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:42 pm
Leaves of Light wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:56 am
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:42 am The translations of the seventeen tantras absent their available commentaries are of limited valuu.

For example, nearly every line of the first chapter of the six dimensions tantra refers to specific practice, which is not apparent from the root text. Without the commentary one simply cannot understand the real meaning of the text. The same applies to the rest of the seventeen tantras
Couldn't that be an argument in favor of a text like the Thekchok Dzöd being made available, since it presumably offers some practical and scholastic guidance to that class of literature? Especially since for better or for worse, the 17 Tantras are available in English.
There is merit to a systematic project of translating the basic commentaries before the theg mchog mdzod. The TCD is invaluable for Longchenpa’s insights into the 17 tantras, but without Vimalamitra’s commentaries, much of what is alluded to in Longchenpa’s corpus remains obscure, and this is obvious in all the 7 treasures that have thus far been translated. For example, in order to elucidate points in the Tshig don mdzod, Khenpo Namdrol frequently refers to these commentaries. So as a matter of principle, i think my approach is more sound.
Do we have "enough" material in the existing commentaries to gain a proper understanding of most of the 17? Do you think we might recover the remaining 11 commentaries?
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Malcolm
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Re:  No Translation of Any Chapters of the Treasure of the Supreme Vehicle by Longchenpa

Post by Malcolm »

ManiThePainter wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:36 pm

Do we have "enough" material in the existing commentaries to gain a proper understanding of most of the 17? Do you think we might recover the remaining 11 commentaries?
Yes.

It is possible, there is always new material being recovered in libraries.
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