What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:08 am
Leaves of Light wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:50 pm
Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:43 pm To someone who has received Dzogchen teachings, dang is definitely not an obscure term. It really isn't. It is on the other hand an obscure term if you have no real understanding of Dzogchen, and like I said, then you shouldn't be reading Dzogchen tantras (or Dzogchen texts by Longchenpa).

At any rate, what Malcolm replied to you above more than suffices. There's nothing more that needs to be said here.
Compared to an everyday term like byang chub sems, bodhicitta, which was creatively translated or paraphrased by the author as "Pure Perfect Presence", - in defiance of colleagues previously translating an entirely different term, rigpa, in very similar or identical terms - then terms like dang- and rolpa-energies certainly are obscure so the question arises, why is the former translated and the latter not? Your own logic suggests that if anything it ought to be the other way around. I am only curious about the hermeneutic principle being employed by the translator, if there is consistency or not.
You should ask them directly.
That's true, but the person is not always available or responds to correspondence. Hence resorting to the message board. At any rate, the intention at first was to clarify what Pure Perfect Presence was a translation of, due to the confusion caused by previous renderings of rigpa and lack of glossary provided in the individual volume. I don't know why the problem of dang and rolpa and wider philosophy of translation came up, I probably brought it up, entirely needlessly. Since the problem of the term Pure Perfect Presence has been solved, the thread is really obsolete now as someone else pointed out. I agree with everything said regarding the crucial importance of seeking qualified gurus first and foremost in lieu of giving rise to endless conceptual proliferation of one's own ignorant fancy.
florin
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by florin »

Leaves of Light wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:50 pm
Norwegian wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:43 pm To someone who has received Dzogchen teachings, dang is definitely not an obscure term. It really isn't. It is on the other hand an obscure term if you have no real understanding of Dzogchen, and like I said, then you shouldn't be reading Dzogchen tantras (or Dzogchen texts by Longchenpa).

At any rate, what Malcolm replied to you above more than suffices. There's nothing more that needs to be said here.
Compared to an everyday term like byang chub sems, bodhicitta, which was creatively translated or paraphrased by the author as "Pure Perfect Presence", - in defiance of colleagues previously translating an entirely different term, rigpa, in very similar or identical terms - then terms like dang- and rolpa-energies certainly are obscure so the question arises, why is the former translated and the latter not? Your own logic suggests that if anything it ought to be the other way around. I am only curious about the hermeneutic principle being employed by the translator, if there is consistency or not.
I think most people here are asking whether your received dzogchen transmission first and foremost.
Not only that but how come you decided to pick volume 13 which comes with its own set of preliminaries as recommended on the first few pages and yet your are inquiring about terms that are somewhat basic and by the time you would have reached the stage to practice thogal you would have to have them understood at least on a basic theoretical level.
Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

florin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:21 am I think most people here are asking whether your received dzogchen transmission first and foremost.
Not only that but how come you decided to pick volume 13 which comes with its own set of preliminaries as recommended on the first few pages and yet your are inquiring about terms that are somewhat basic and by the time you would have reached the stage to practice thogal you would have to have them understood at least on a basic theoretical level.
Well, perhaps you're right. However, the reason is because the lengthy commentary to the Kunjed Gyalpo is extremely long and dense and I was at the particular point more interested in the translation of the Six Spaces of Samantabhadra, in some way to compare to Christopher Wilkinson's translation, who offered his own philosophy of ethics of transmission, incidentally, bearing in mind that he was a student of Dezhung and Kalu Rinpoches among others, including possibly even Dilgo Khyentse. Then arises this strange term Pure Perfect Presence with no glossary. Of course logically speaking you're right, it makes sense to read the series from volume 1 to the end. In hindsight, it would have been better.

Out of interest, do you know whereabouts in the Kunjed Gyalpo and/or its commentary, the concepts of dang, rolpa and rtsal energies is treated? I can't remember encountering these concepts in that Mind Series literature, but everyone seems to be saying it's so foundational, so presumably it is taught therein. Incidentally shouldn't it also arguably be the case that Dzogchen transmission should be mandatory to even read and contribute questions and answers to a message board like this? If so, then how would it be enforced.
Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:08 am You should ask them directly.
That's true, but the person is not always available or responds to correspondence. Hence resorting to the message board. At any rate, the intention at first was to clarify what Pure Perfect Presence was a translation of, due to the confusion caused by previous renderings of rigpa and lack of glossary provided in the individual volume. I don't know why the problem of dang and rolpa and wider philosophy of translation came up, I probably brought it up, entirely needlessly. Since the problem of the term Pure Perfect Presence has been solved, the thread is really obsolete now as someone else pointed out. I agree with everything said regarding the crucial importance of seeking qualified gurus first and foremost in lieu of giving rise to endless conceptual proliferation of one's own brute ignorance.
Miorita
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Miorita »

I think most sangha is stuck into thinking a certain way and admits no other perspectives.
It means that the greieving process is not over. It means that it is pathological.

I moved on from the event because this is impermanence: things happen.
I found Garchen R. who offers more than teachings. At a certain age teachings become parallel.
And that concludes my stay with you.
Be nice!
stoneinfocus
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by stoneinfocus »

Leaves of Light wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:38 am
florin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:21 am I think most people here are asking whether your received dzogchen transmission first and foremost.
Not only that but how come you decided to pick volume 13 which comes with its own set of preliminaries as recommended on the first few pages and yet your are inquiring about terms that are somewhat basic and by the time you would have reached the stage to practice thogal you would have to have them understood at least on a basic theoretical level.
Well, perhaps you're right. However, the reason is because the lengthy commentary to the Kunjed Gyalpo is extremely long and dense and I was at the particular point more interested in the translation of the Six Spaces of Samantabhadra, in some way to compare to Christopher Wilkinson's translation, who offered his own philosophy of ethics of transmission, incidentally, bearing in mind that he was a student of Dezhung and Kalu Rinpoches among others, including possibly even Dilgo Khyentse. Then arises this strange term Pure Perfect Presence with no glossary. Of course logically speaking you're right, it makes sense to read the series from volume 1 to the end. In hindsight, it would have been better.

Out of interest, do you know whereabouts in the Kunjed Gyalpo and/or its commentary, the concepts of dang, rolpa and rtsal energies is treated? I can't remember encountering these concepts in that Mind Series literature, but everyone seems to be saying it's so foundational, so presumably it is taught therein. Incidentally shouldn't it also arguably be the case that Dzogchen transmission should be mandatory to even read and contribute questions and answers to a message board like this? If so, then how would it be enforced.
The dang rolpa tsal schema is a unique feature of Namkhai Norbu's system, so youre not going to find it in the tantra or commentaries. The more typical schema is tsal, rolpa, bodhicitta as explained by Longchenpa is his Treasuries.
Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

stoneinfocus wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:59 pm The dang rolpa tsal schema is a unique feature of Namkhai Norbu's system, so youre not going to find it in the tantra or commentaries. The more typical schema is tsal, rolpa, bodhicitta as explained by Longchenpa is his Treasuries.
Ah - thank you! I didn't know that. That's a helpful explanation.
Malcolm
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Malcolm »

stoneinfocus wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:59 pm

The dang rolpa tsal schema is a unique feature of Namkhai Norbu's system, so youre not going to find it in the tantra or commentaries. The more typical schema is tsal, rolpa, bodhicitta as explained by Longchenpa is his Treasuries.
It is important to understand that Longchenpa's byang chub sems, rtsal, and rol pa scheme is explained in order clarify that Dzogchen does not reject outer objects (rol pa). Some people in Tibet took the "sems" part to be something resembling Yogacāra idealism.

ChNN's scheme is related to the three kāyas, so completely different in meaning.

To this we can add the explanation of byang chub sems found in Kunzang Dorje's 12th century text, the Vajra Bridge (klong sde). Byang refers to purity, that's obvious. But he states very clearly:

Comprehension means (chub pa) means [6/b] 1) the comprehensions imbued with the five poisons when there is ignorance or delusion about the reality of the mind essence and 2) it means the comprehension imbued with the five pristine consciousnesses when there is knowledge and realization of that reality.

One point that the gloss "perfect" does not reach as a translation is the the definition of chub pa as understanding or realization (rtogs pa).

sems is explained as follows:

Next, because so-called “mind” (sems) is not the mind, it is the mind essence (sems nyid). The temporary concepts of mental processing arise from conditions and perish because of conditions. Being conditioned and relative, since [the mind] cannot endure and are transformed by conditions, [mind] is not ultimate.

The mind essence (sems nyid) has always been unconditioned. The meaning of not being destroyed by conditions and never changing in the three times is the reality that is luminous and nonconceptual.



Dorje Gyaltsen's 13th century commentary on the Cuckoo of Vidyā gives the following definitions:

The meaning: “Purity [byang]” means all phenomena that are the primal nature (rang bzhin, prakṛti) of delusion have never been established in the core of the true state, bodhicitta [byang chub sems]. Also there is no purifying antidote, its intrinsic essence beyond thought and expression is pure.

However all the phenomena of samsara and nirvana or the universe and beings appear, they are one in bodhicitta through the principle of being free from departing and gathering, and are inseparable. Since those are free from partiality, they are comprehended (chub) to be pure.

That “Mind of” [kyi sems] is the unmixed totally complete essence, the primal nature of the eight consciousnesses endowed with a luminous (‘od gsal) identity which inherently never wavers into any extreme at all, free from all extremes, naturally pure and unwavering in the three times.

Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?” It is possible, it is called “vidyā” (rig pa). The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated wisdom, and then the pure basis of the mental consciousness (free from the root of apprehending subject and apprehended objects) bring samsara to an end. The pristine consciousness (ye shes, jñāna) of one’s vidyā (without root or leaf) — naturally perfected as it totally encompasses and subsumes everything — is the true state [de kho na nyid, tattva].


Thus, another way to translate byang chub sems is "The mind essence of the comprehension of purity."

This also why we distinguish byang chub sems and rig pa. The former is the object of the latter.

This should clear up some questions and cause more.
florin
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by florin »

Leaves of Light wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:38 am

Out of interest, do you know whereabouts in the Kunjed Gyalpo and/or its commentary, the concepts of dang, rolpa and rtsal energies is treated? I can't remember encountering these concepts in that Mind Series literature, but everyone seems to be saying it's so foundational, so presumably it is taught therein. Incidentally shouldn't it also arguably be the case that Dzogchen transmission should be mandatory to even read and contribute questions and answers to a message board like this? If so, then how would it be enforced.
The note I mentioned earlier in the thread can be located on pg 51 vol 1.
But these tugje energies are referred multiple times throughout the commentary.

However, i think there are other a bit more detailed explanations in CNNr’s works that provide a bit more context and are somewhat easier to understand. So if i was you i would want to consult those.
Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

florin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:34 pm
Leaves of Light wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:38 am

Out of interest, do you know whereabouts in the Kunjed Gyalpo and/or its commentary, the concepts of dang, rolpa and rtsal energies is treated? I can't remember encountering these concepts in that Mind Series literature, but everyone seems to be saying it's so foundational, so presumably it is taught therein. Incidentally shouldn't it also arguably be the case that Dzogchen transmission should be mandatory to even read and contribute questions and answers to a message board like this? If so, then how would it be enforced.
The note I mentioned earlier in the thread can be located on pg 51 vol 1.
But these tugje energies are referred multiple times throughout the commentary.

However, i think there are other a bit more detailed explanations in CNNr’s works that provide a bit more context and are somewhat easier to understand. So if i was you i would want to consult those.
Thank you for those references. All this talk of thugs rje energies is somewhat novel to these ears, I can see there is a lot of catching up study to do in this area, as much as is available to a non ordained student of Namkhai Norbu since the great majority of his published teachings are strictly restricted.
Last edited by Leaves of Light on Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:09 pm Thus, another way to translate byang chub sems is "The mind essence of the comprehension of purity."
That entire post culminating in the above summary was a remarkable exegesis of the meaning of byang chub sems, quite radical in fact. "Mind essence of the comprehension of purity", as distinct as this is from more conventional, lower vehicle interpretations of bodhicitta, still doesn't quite square off with Valby's "pure perfect Presence", but it does, no doubt, go some way to justifying and making sense of that sort of translation which otherwise was somewhat baffling. Thank you very much for those rare citations and explanations, so hard to find in millions of lifetimes.
Kai lord
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Kai lord »

Leaves of Light wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:22 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:09 pm Thus, another way to translate byang chub sems is "The mind essence of the comprehension of purity."
That entire post culminating in the above summary was a remarkable exegesis of the meaning of byang chub sems, quite radical in fact. "Mind essence of the comprehension of purity", as distinct as this is from more conventional, lower vehicle interpretations of bodhicitta.
You can bridge that with the lower vehicle tenets on bodhicitta as union of compassion and emptiness in this way.

Emptiness as purity, mind essence as compassion and their union as comprehension.

Just a suggestion of course.
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:54 am You can bridge that with the lower vehicle tenets on bodhicitta as union of compassion and emptiness in this way.

Emptiness as purity, mind essence as compassion and their union as comprehension.

Just a suggestion of course.
That's an interesting idea, I totally get where youre coming from. Although whether or not the primordial purity realized in trekchod practice indicated in the above Atiyoga style teaching is the same thing as the emptiness as taught in, say, Prajnaparamita or Yogacara, is perhaps debatable and would require a whole new analysis. And it might be a bit simplistic to equate the mind nature or essence uniquely revealed as the aspect of taking the result as the path in Dzogchen with simply Mahayana concept of compassion, which is not itself conceived of as the goal, but rather as skillful means on the path; there is still a lot of differences between these things as explained in the respective vehicles. But as a bridging between the vehicles, your idea is intriguing.
Kai lord
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Kai lord »

Leaves of Light wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:30 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:54 am You can bridge that with the lower vehicle tenets on bodhicitta as union of compassion and emptiness in this way.

Emptiness as purity, mind essence as compassion and their union as comprehension.

Just a suggestion of course.
That's an interesting idea, I totally get where youre coming from. Although whether or not the primordial purity realized in trekchod practice indicated in the above Atiyoga style teaching is the same thing as the emptiness as taught in, say, Prajnaparamita or Yogacara, is perhaps debatable and would require a whole new analysis. And it might be a bit simplistic to equate the mind nature or essence uniquely revealed as the aspect of taking the result as the path in Dzogchen with simply Mahayana concept of compassion, which is not itself conceived of as the goal, but rather as skillful means on the path; there is still a lot of differences between these things as explained in the respective vehicles. But as a bridging between the vehicles, your idea is intriguing.
Yes I understand your concern about compassion being too simplistic but I read the following definitions of compassion before :
Bodhicitta is a primary mental consciousness. As such, it is accompanied by (is concomitant with) various mental factors, a principal one being the aspiration to attain full awakening.
Loving kindness is the essence of bodhicitta, the attitude of the bodhisattva. It is the most comfortable path, the most comfortable meditation.
So from the combination of the above definitions , compassion or loving kindness could be seen as the essence of primary mental consciousness.

BTW relative bodhicitta is more than just compassion, its all four immeasurables combined as one.

Hope this helps. :namaste:
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Leaves of Light
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:57 am Yes I understand your concern about compassion being too simplistic but I read the following definitions of compassion before :
Bodhicitta is a primary mental consciousness. As such, it is accompanied by (is concomitant with) various mental factors, a principal one being the aspiration to attain full awakening.
Loving kindness is the essence of bodhicitta, the attitude of the bodhisattva. It is the most comfortable path, the most comfortable meditation.
So from the combination of the above definitions , compassion or loving kindness could be seen as the essence of primary mental consciousness.

BTW relative bodhicitta is more than just compassion, its all four immeasurables combined as one.

Hope this helps. :namaste:
Yes, those definitions of bodhicitta are the correct ones if my understanding of the Mahayana teaching is accurate. However, they are somewhat different to the teachings on the term bodhicitta or byang chub sems kindly taught above by Acarya Malcolm regarding the Dzogchen philosophy and practice. A key difference for example is when you cite the phrase "aspiration to awakening" in connection with bodhicitta, whereas in the Dzogchen system, bodhicitta or byang chub sems IS the state or stuff of full awakening itself, not just the aspiration toward it. As for the statement, "compassion or loving kindness could be seen as the essence of primary mental consciousness" (= sems nyid?) then this again maybe isn't exactly the intent of the Dzogchen view where it seems like the actual nature of mind is more primal, and transcending limiting characteristics like love and compassion, although they are of course present therein as inherent qualities of buddhahood. It does get quite tricky when you try to fit the terms and characteristics of one certain vehicle's teaching with that of another, because they really do diverge quite profoundly, and maybe it's better to avoid the attempt because you could end up missing the point of not just one, but both systems!
Kai lord
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Kai lord »

Leaves of Light wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:09 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:57 am Yes I understand your concern about compassion being too simplistic but I read the following definitions of compassion before :
Bodhicitta is a primary mental consciousness. As such, it is accompanied by (is concomitant with) various mental factors, a principal one being the aspiration to attain full awakening.
Loving kindness is the essence of bodhicitta, the attitude of the bodhisattva. It is the most comfortable path, the most comfortable meditation.
So from the combination of the above definitions , compassion or loving kindness could be seen as the essence of primary mental consciousness.

BTW relative bodhicitta is more than just compassion, its all four immeasurables combined as one.

Hope this helps. :namaste:
Yes, those definitions of bodhicitta are the correct ones if my understanding of the Mahayana teaching is accurate. However, they are somewhat different to the teachings on the term bodhicitta or byang chub sems kindly taught above by Acarya Malcolm regarding the Dzogchen philosophy and practice. A key difference for example is when you cite the phrase "aspiration to awakening" in connection with bodhicitta, whereas in the Dzogchen system, bodhicitta or byang chub sems IS the state or stuff of full awakening itself, not just the aspiration toward it. As for the statement, "compassion or loving kindness could be seen as the essence of primary mental consciousness" (= sems nyid?) then this again maybe isn't exactly the intent of the Dzogchen view where it seems like the actual nature of mind is more primal, and transcending limiting characteristics like love and compassion, although they are of course present therein as inherent qualities of buddhahood. It does get quite tricky when you try to fit the terms and characteristics of one certain vehicle's teaching with that of another, because they really do diverge quite profoundly, and maybe it's better to avoid the attempt because you could end up missing the point of not just one, but both systems!
Yes they are not the same as bodhiciitta is taught as a potentiality in the lower vehicles but as an end result in dzogchen.

However, despite the difference, they aren't completely different concepts. One should be able to subsume the teaching of the lower vehicles into the teaching of the higher vehicle.

Inherent qualities of the Buddha like five wisdoms and four kayas? Its taught in the lower vehicles how each of four immeasurables in the relative bodhicitta will slowly manifest itself as wisdom and kaya once the obstructions or corresponding poison are removed.

For example loving kindness will manifest as the mirror-like wisdom and the Sambhogakaya since all habits and tendencies of aversion are fully removed
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Leaves of Light »

Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:17 am Yes they are not the same as bodhiciitta is taught as a potentiality in the lower vehicles but as an end result in dzogchen.

However, despite the difference, they aren't completely different concepts. One should be able to subsume the teaching of the lower vehicles into the teaching of the higher vehicle.

Inherent qualities of the Buddha like five wisdoms and four kayas? Its taught in the lower vehicles how each of four immeasurables in the relative bodhicitta will slowly manifest itself as wisdom and kaya once the obstructions or corresponding poison are removed.

For example loving kindness will manifest as the mirror-like wisdom and the Sambhogakaya since all habits and tendencies of aversion are fully removed
Of course that's true; there is a deeply satisfying hermeneutical consistency of the type you mention throughout the entirety of all the Buddhist teachings from Shravakayana up to Dzogchen. The four truths, eightfold path, thirty seven factors of enlightenment, etc. - these kinds of teachings are still found here and there in the highest tantras as well as foundational sutra, vinaya and abhidharma. This is symbolised particularly elegantly for example by the mere fact that the opening statement "Thus have I heard" is found at the start of scriptures (not every single one of course) of all 9 vehicles of the Nyingma system, from Hinayana sutra up to the various classes of tantras. And it's not that the bodhicitta of Mahayana sutra is "a completely different concept" to that of Mahamudra and Dzogchen, but as the very detailed exegesis of the term byang chub sems kindly shared by Acarya Malcolm in Dzogchen context above demonstrates, the term bodhicitta here for instance does indeed signify something quite distinct to that understood even in Sarma tantra let alone Mahayana sutra, so much so that it could cause serious misunderstanding if one tried to align the two as one.
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by stoneinfocus »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:09 pm
stoneinfocus wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:59 pm

The dang rolpa tsal schema is a unique feature of Namkhai Norbu's system, so youre not going to find it in the tantra or commentaries. The more typical schema is tsal, rolpa, bodhicitta as explained by Longchenpa is his Treasuries.
It is important to understand that Longchenpa's byang chub sems, rtsal, and rol pa scheme is explained in order clarify that Dzogchen does not reject outer objects (rol pa). Some people in Tibet took the "sems" part to be something resembling Yogacāra idealism.

ChNN's scheme is related to the three kāyas, so completely different in meaning.

To this we can add the explanation of byang chub sems found in Kunzang Dorje's 12th century text, the Vajra Bridge (klong sde). Byang refers to purity, that's obvious. But he states very clearly:

Comprehension means (chub pa) means [6/b] 1) the comprehensions imbued with the five poisons when there is ignorance or delusion about the reality of the mind essence and 2) it means the comprehension imbued with the five pristine consciousnesses when there is knowledge and realization of that reality.

One point that the gloss "perfect" does not reach as a translation is the the definition of chub pa as understanding or realization (rtogs pa).

sems is explained as follows:

Next, because so-called “mind” (sems) is not the mind, it is the mind essence (sems nyid). The temporary concepts of mental processing arise from conditions and perish because of conditions. Being conditioned and relative, since [the mind] cannot endure and are transformed by conditions, [mind] is not ultimate.

The mind essence (sems nyid) has always been unconditioned. The meaning of not being destroyed by conditions and never changing in the three times is the reality that is luminous and nonconceptual.



Dorje Gyaltsen's 13th century commentary on the Cuckoo of Vidyā gives the following definitions:

The meaning: “Purity [byang]” means all phenomena that are the primal nature (rang bzhin, prakṛti) of delusion have never been established in the core of the true state, bodhicitta [byang chub sems]. Also there is no purifying antidote, its intrinsic essence beyond thought and expression is pure.

However all the phenomena of samsara and nirvana or the universe and beings appear, they are one in bodhicitta through the principle of being free from departing and gathering, and are inseparable. Since those are free from partiality, they are comprehended (chub) to be pure.

That “Mind of” [kyi sems] is the unmixed totally complete essence, the primal nature of the eight consciousnesses endowed with a luminous (‘od gsal) identity which inherently never wavers into any extreme at all, free from all extremes, naturally pure and unwavering in the three times.

Now then, if it is asked “Is it not impossible for such a pure primal nature to appear to the mind of a person?” It is possible, it is called “vidyā” (rig pa). The vidyā of migrating beings itself appears as the mental consciousness in terms of apprehending subjects and apprehended objects. When vidyā manifests its own primal nature, the mental consciousness manifests as self-originated wisdom, and then the pure basis of the mental consciousness (free from the root of apprehending subject and apprehended objects) bring samsara to an end. The pristine consciousness (ye shes, jñāna) of one’s vidyā (without root or leaf) — naturally perfected as it totally encompasses and subsumes everything — is the true state [de kho na nyid, tattva].


Thus, another way to translate byang chub sems is "The mind essence of the comprehension of purity."

This also why we distinguish byang chub sems and rig pa. The former is the object of the latter.

This should clear up some questions and cause more.
Thank you for the detailed explanation and clarification, especially that Norbu's system refers to the 3 kayas.
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Miorita »

I think it is more important to be kind than to be right. :lol:

My pure and perfect and presence and lever is going to bed.

Happy thoughts and wishes on your Birthday, Your Holiness!

From DharmaWheel, from all of us, we, beings engaged just to be engaged, promise to advance in the study of the Dharma, in the service of others for the benefit of all.

:anjali:
KT
Passing By
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Re: What Does Jim Valby Mean by "Pure Perfect Presence"

Post by Passing By »

Leaves of Light wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:09 am
Kai lord wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:57 am Yes I understand your concern about compassion being too simplistic but I read the following definitions of compassion before :
Bodhicitta is a primary mental consciousness. As such, it is accompanied by (is concomitant with) various mental factors, a principal one being the aspiration to attain full awakening.
Loving kindness is the essence of bodhicitta, the attitude of the bodhisattva. It is the most comfortable path, the most comfortable meditation.
So from the combination of the above definitions , compassion or loving kindness could be seen as the essence of primary mental consciousness.

BTW relative bodhicitta is more than just compassion, its all four immeasurables combined as one.

Hope this helps. :namaste:
Yes, those definitions of bodhicitta are the correct ones if my understanding of the Mahayana teaching is accurate. However, they are somewhat different to the teachings on the term bodhicitta or byang chub sems kindly taught above by Acarya Malcolm regarding the Dzogchen philosophy and practice. A key difference for example is when you cite the phrase "aspiration to awakening" in connection with bodhicitta, whereas in the Dzogchen system, bodhicitta or byang chub sems IS the state or stuff of full awakening itself, not just the aspiration toward it.
It is not just Dzogchen. Maha/Anuyoga and Sarma Anuttarayoga as well
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