What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

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hello225123
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What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

About a month ago I was at my friend's birthday party and I got very drunk. I was a Buddhist for about 6 months then and attended my city Zen center weekly. I hadn't drank alcohol for about one and a half years, but at that point, I was very depressed and anxious so unfortunately, I didn't care much.

So, there were a lot of people there. Then I was around a few people I know and I started telling Zen koans and koan stories of Zen masters. I was very drunk and people were laughing at me, one guy filmed me.

I was very disrespectful and I was making a joke out of Buddhism and disrespecting Buddha and Dharma, giving others a bad outlook on Buddhism by doing that. I very much regret doing all of that.



Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha Sutra - Chap 3, says :
"The Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha then addressed the Holy Mother, saying, "In southern Jambudvipa, the retribution for various sins is as follows: If someone should fail to fulfill his filial duty toward his parents or, at worst, kill or harm them, he will fall into Avici Hell, where he will remain for thousands of myriads of millions of kalpas without a date for release. If someone should shed the blood of a Buddha, ridicule the Three Jewels or fail to respect the sutras, he, also, will fall into Avici Hell, where he will remain for thousands of myriads of millions of kalpas without a date for release. If someone should encroach upon or steal the property of some Buddhist establishment, slander bhiksus or bhiksunis, indulge his carnal lust in a sangharama, or kill or harm others, then he or she will fall into Avici Hell and remain there for thousands of myriads of millions of kalpas without a date for release."

Is there something I can do to avoid going to hell? Will doing prostrations, good deeds, mantras prevent me from going to hell or not? If yes, what would you specifically recommend for me to do?
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Instead of worrying about punishment or going to hell, maybe it’s worth recognizing that this disturbs you because the Dharma is important to you. Are you practicing now? If not, it seems like a good place to start again.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

yes, I'm practicing right now, but it still worries me that I created huge amounts of bad karma
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:09 pm yes, I'm practicing right now, but it still worries me that I created huge amounts of bad karma
Well, it’s probably more worth your time just using that regret for future aspirations and doing some sort of purification practice.

I mean, literal reading of sutras and worrying about hell is not very productive.

The other thing is, one of the cited reasons for the fifth precept is precisely stuff like this, where people make decisions they normally wouldn’t. So if you are practicing now and using that regret to propel your practice, I don’t see much to worry about.

I really don’t think it’s worth interpreting the lines in such a black and white way here.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Ayu »

Regret is regarded to be very karma-cleansing.

Four powerful means: https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/purifying-four-powers
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by KathyLauren »

What's done is done. If there is karma to be had from it, that is done too.
Why worry about something if you can change it?
And what is the point of worrying about something if you cannot change it?
- Shantideva
What you can change is the present and the future. It sounds like you have learned from the experience. That is a good thing. Put what you have learned into practice, with special attention to the Fifth Precept.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:09 pm yes, I'm practicing right now, but it still worries me that I created huge amounts of bad karma
By what actual process do you think negative karma is produced? Where does it reside?
Probably nobody cares that you did that.

Don’t worry about it.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Tilopa »

Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:36 pm Regret is regarded to be very karma-cleansing
Agree with Ayu here, purification with the 4 opponent powers is the way to go and fwiw my suggestion would be prostrations while reciting the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. I've always found it to be a very powerful and effective remedy for past mistakes. And as others have also said what ever is done is done so don't dwell on it - regret, purify, move on.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Tilopa wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:36 pm Regret is regarded to be very karma-cleansing
Agree with Ayu here, purification with the 4 opponent powers is the way to go and fwiw my suggestion would be prostrations while reciting the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. I've always found it to be a very powerful and effective remedy for past mistakes. And as others have also said what ever is done is done so don't dwell on it - regret, purify, move on.

I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :
May the supreme jewel bodhicitta
that has not arisen arise and grow,
and may that which has arisen not diminish,
but increase more and more.
While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:18 pm
Tilopa wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:36 pm Regret is regarded to be very karma-cleansing
Agree with Ayu here, purification with the 4 opponent powers is the way to go and fwiw my suggestion would be prostrations while reciting the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. I've always found it to be a very powerful and effective remedy for past mistakes. And as others have also said what ever is done is done so don't dwell on it - regret, purify, move on.

I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :
May the supreme jewel bodhicitta
that has not arisen arise and grow,
and may that which has arisen not diminish,
but increase more and more.
While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
You really should be talking to your teacher about this. We can’t give you anything but general advice from our backgrounds and experiences. I’m

If you are experiencing constant worry or obsession about this, it might be another question too.

As far as what to do specifically though, normally you would ask your teacher.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

In Pure Land the Chinese Pure Land patriarch said when requesting Amitabha Buddha’s help the most important thing is utter sincerity and respect.

Sounds like those qualities are there based on your post.

So just confess to the three jewels quietly within yourself then the event can help you into the future and progress your practice. :twothumbsup:
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:33 pm
hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:18 pm
Tilopa wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm

Agree with Ayu here, purification with the 4 opponent powers is the way to go and fwiw my suggestion would be prostrations while reciting the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. I've always found it to be a very powerful and effective remedy for past mistakes. And as others have also said what ever is done is done so don't dwell on it - regret, purify, move on.

I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :
May the supreme jewel bodhicitta
that has not arisen arise and grow,
and may that which has arisen not diminish,
but increase more and more.

?

While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
You really should be talking to your teacher about this. We can’t give you anything but general advice from our backgrounds and experiences. I’m

If you are experiencing constant worry or obsession about this, it might be another question too.

As far as what to do specifically though, normally you would ask your teacher.


I don't have a teacher, as I'm from a small country, and my local sangha doesn't have any teachers/monks staying there currently. There's a layperson who has spent a longer time practicing in the tradition who puts on robes and leads the chanting. Should I ask him?
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:33 pm
hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:18 pm


I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :



?

While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
You really should be talking to your teacher about this. We can’t give you anything but general advice from our backgrounds and experiences. I’m

If you are experiencing constant worry or obsession about this, it might be another question too.

As far as what to do specifically though, normally you would ask your teacher.


I don't have a teacher, as I'm from a small country, and my local sangha doesn't have any teachers/monks staying there currently. There's a layperson who has spent a longer time practicing in the tradition who puts on robes and leads the chanting. Should I ask him?
I would ask if I were in your position. It would be good to know how the tradition you are practicing in approaches a question like this.

You don’t have to get super specific either I don’t think, you could just ask about how to deal with wrongdoing that you regret. Etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Genjo Conan »

hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:18 pm
Tilopa wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm
Ayu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:36 pm Regret is regarded to be very karma-cleansing
Agree with Ayu here, purification with the 4 opponent powers is the way to go and fwiw my suggestion would be prostrations while reciting the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. I've always found it to be a very powerful and effective remedy for past mistakes. And as others have also said what ever is done is done so don't dwell on it - regret, purify, move on.

I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :
May the supreme jewel bodhicitta
that has not arisen arise and grow,
and may that which has arisen not diminish,
but increase more and more.
While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
Most Zen temples, in all traditions, will have a monthly repentance ceremony. If yours doesn't, at a minimum I agree that it's worth speaking with one of the senior students (since it sounds like there's no resident priest).
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 pm
hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:18 pm
Tilopa wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm

Agree with Ayu here, purification with the 4 opponent powers is the way to go and fwiw my suggestion would be prostrations while reciting the refuge and bodhicitta prayer. I've always found it to be a very powerful and effective remedy for past mistakes. And as others have also said what ever is done is done so don't dwell on it - regret, purify, move on.

I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :
May the supreme jewel bodhicitta
that has not arisen arise and grow,
and may that which has arisen not diminish,
but increase more and more.
While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
Most Zen temples, in all traditions, will have a monthly repentance ceremony. If yours doesn't, at a minimum I agree that it's worth speaking with one of the senior students (since it sounds like there's no resident priest).


Thanks, I will. I'm 16 though so this is gonna be very awkward 😅
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

hello225123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:21 pm Thanks, I will. I'm 16 though so this is gonna be very awkward 😅
Ah! Underage drinking! Might be fun but, don't do it dude. At least wait until the legal age of drinking in your country, or until you are 18 or 20. Alcohol is a poison, fun poison but still a poison.

But ofc there are the societal pressures...

Concerning your situation it is important to remember that guilt is useless and regreting and moving on are the way to go. Man, I have spent so many nights like that! I regret every single one to be honest.

As for purification, it depends on a lineage, teacher, etc. However, you can always do the zen style bowing in front of a Buddha statue (and/or visalization of Buddha) and repeat verses of refuge, while feeling regret. Then at the end vow/promise to not repeat it again. That is the four oponent powers. Power of support (Buddha), power of regret, power of antidote (bowing and refuge recitation) and power of resolve (the vow/promise). This is my advice from Tibetan Buddhist POV. Just mere visualization of Buddha has many benefits.

You can also reat sutras, like the heart sutra as a form of antidote.

But I feel I am probably just creating more confusion. I hope your senior practitioner friend has some advice for you.

Remembering how being 16 felt like I am afraid that "awkward" fits basically any situation. :lol: If it makes you feel any better it does not get that much better for many of us.
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goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Miorita »

As the person before me said, you look at the causes and factors of disrespect.

* Why were you depressed?
* Why were you anxious?

Solve these first!

* What made you be angry with the Buddhas and the Dharma?

You know it’s ridiculous to get upset at something that is in your mind as guidance and model and indestructible.
See within yourself where you were wrong and correct it!
It is called self-censoring. If you don’t do it, if you don’t control yourself, who do you expect to come to control you?
Then I say that you need to be careful to whom you dispense of your knowledge and careful of your outward appearance to others. If you bought alcohol like an adult, you will be charged as an adult. And there is no taking back or helping you in that situation because you asked for it. Don’t rush!
For thousands of years humanity used this planet for experiments on itself. And look what it got us to!
If you are sincere in your aspiration, maybe you see the models and the teachings with renewed eyes. And maybe you are so blessed and so good in practice that you come to see them with your eyes.
If you are not, and think these are only action figures, then when you supposedly grow up, remember the action figures as a good support and model for virtuous actions rather than self-destructive ones!

It’s the wolf that you feed that wins the battle.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Sangyedorje »

hello225123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:21 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 pm
hello225123 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:18 pm


I'm practicing in Zen tradition so I'm not very familiar with how to do exactly what you are saying.

So, i should tTibetano tibetan-style prostrations, while reciting bodhicitta prayer :


While also taking refuge in the Three jewels simultaneously?
Most Zen temples, in all traditions, will have a monthly repentance ceremony. If yours doesn't, at a minimum I agree that it's worth speaking with one of the senior students (since it sounds like there's no resident priest).


Thanks, I will. I'm 16 though so this is gonna be very awkward 😅
Aawww man. I remember when I was around your age and Buddhist. People are getting into the Dharma younger and younger.

Look, I've done way worse than you have when I was drunk (this is exactly why it's in the 5 precepts). But, I think that when you read that Sutra, you should consider that these shouldn't always be read so literally. For example, is Kshitagarbha speaking in terms of doing this action once or addressing someone who continually and habitually disrespects the three jewels until death? Also, does the action itself cause one to fall into Avici hell or does the negative mental states associated with it cause one to fall? Don't read texts so literally without thinking. If this were the case, everyone who smoked a cigarette could never be enlightened according to some Tantra and termas.

Also, keep in mind that most Karma is defined by intention. You weren't thinking clearly when you committed the action and you clearly feel guilty about it afterwards. You have a lot of remorse and faith, so you should be thankful that you have such strong devotion!

Now, that isn't to say your karma is nihl. Like everything, you will see repurcussions. But don't get hung up on it. What's more important is what you're gonna do in the future. Don't get drunk or lit. One of the 5 precepts is not to take intoxicants. It's honestly best not to drink at all, especially at your age, but if you do, at least don't get drunk. Furthermore, make sure that you have an even more solid understanding of Dharma and keep your practice to yourself. Your friends don't seem to have a great appreciation of dharma, so maybe it's best to keep your practice on the dl, especially when you're intoxicated. I remember when I was young I never shut up about the Dharma. But, if you want to show them how great Buddhism is, DO IT THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS.

Have fun, stay in school, and keep going on in your practice.
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by hello225123 »

Sangyedorje wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:31 pm
hello225123 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:21 pm
Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 pm

Most Zen temples, in all traditions, will have a monthly repentance ceremony. If yours doesn't, at a minimum I agree that it's worth speaking with one of the senior students (since it sounds like there's no resident priest).


Thanks, I will. I'm 16 though so this is gonna be very awkward 😅
Aawww man. I remember when I was around your age and Buddhist. People are getting into the Dharma younger and younger.

Look, I've done way worse than you have when I was drunk (this is exactly why it's in the 5 precepts). But, I think that when you read that Sutra, you should consider that these shouldn't always be read so literally. For example, is Kshitagarbha speaking in terms of doing this action once or addressing someone who continually and habitually disrespects the three jewels until death? Also, does the action itself cause one to fall into Avici hell or does the negative mental states associated with it cause one to fall? Don't read texts so literally without thinking. If this were the case, everyone who smoked a cigarette could never be enlightened according to some Tantra and termas.

Also, keep in mind that most Karma is defined by intention. You weren't thinking clearly when you committed the action and you clearly feel guilty about it afterwards. You have a lot of remorse and faith, so you should be thankful that you have such strong devotion!

Now, that isn't to say your karma is nihl. Like everything, you will see repurcussions. But don't get hung up on it. What's more important is what you're gonna do in the future. Don't get drunk or lit. One of the 5 precepts is not to take intoxicants. It's honestly best not to drink at all, especially at your age, but if you do, at least don't get drunk. Furthermore, make sure that you have an even more solid understanding of Dharma and keep your practice to yourself. Your friends don't seem to have a great appreciation of dharma, so maybe it's best to keep your practice on the dl, especially when you're intoxicated. I remember when I was young I never shut up about the Dharma. But, if you want to show them how great Buddhism is, DO IT THROUGH YOUR ACTIONS.

Have fun, stay in school, and keep going on in your practice.


"For example, is Kshitagarbha speaking in terms of doing this action once or addressing someone who continually and habitually disrespects the three jewels until death?"

I don't know, but he puts it right after/in the same category of killing your parents :/ And I think he implies that if you kill them once you will fall into avici. ( of course, you cant kill your parents repeatedly of course, but since it disrespecting The Three Jewels is put on the same level as killing your parents, I wouldn't see a reason to interpret it that you need to do this action habitually, other then it seems unfair)
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Re: What can i do if i discrespected the three jewels in front of others?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Mahayana Sutras often use hyperbole to make a point.

It is up you what sort of interpretation to make, but as (I’m assuming you being fairly young and new to Dharma) you are not an expert, or even particularly trained in the various ways to interpret them, you should probably ask an expert. I.e. a teacher you trust.

Understanding Sutra on a number of levels involves years of study, contemplation, consultation with people who know context, content and meaning better than you. Finding those people and getting their take is way more productive than trying to interpret them yourself with really limited exposure to Buddhist thought.

I know because I started reading them at your age, before the Internet really existed, and I had the same issues.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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