Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Passing By
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:14 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave teaching on Dzogchen publicly, he often equated it to Mahamudra and commented on their similarities. Very likely in this case he was referring to dzogchen practices on semde level rather than Trekchod or Thogal.
stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:16 pm On a related note is it safe to assume that an empowerment from a Dzogchen terma cycle (example Rigdzin Dupa or Dudjom Khandro Thuktik) not necessarily means it is a complete Nyingthik empowerment?

It's always best to check if its not blatant. Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory). So you can't assume just because some cycle has Dzogchen that it will have the complete empowerment with rigpa'i rtsal dbang (but with cycles like Chetsun Nyingthik, the Yeshe Lama dbangs, etc...it's probably guaranteed).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave Yangzab Shitro, the last two sections were explicitly for trekchod and thogal. I don't know if these are part of the four kinds of Dzogchen specific empowerments or something else. If they are, I don't know whether in general, the Dzogchen empowerments look like this or it can be something like the lama guiding one through a guru yoga practice.
Kai lord
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

Passing By wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:36 am
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:14 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave teaching on Dzogchen publicly, he often equated it to Mahamudra and commented on their similarities. Very likely in this case he was referring to dzogchen practices on semde level rather than Trekchod or Thogal.
stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm
Passing By wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:16 pm On a related note is it safe to assume that an empowerment from a Dzogchen terma cycle (example Rigdzin Dupa or Dudjom Khandro Thuktik) not necessarily means it is a complete Nyingthik empowerment?

It's always best to check if its not blatant. Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory). So you can't assume just because some cycle has Dzogchen that it will have the complete empowerment with rigpa'i rtsal dbang (but with cycles like Chetsun Nyingthik, the Yeshe Lama dbangs, etc...it's probably guaranteed).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave Yangzab Shitro, the last two sections were explicitly for trekchod and thogal. I don't know if these are part of the four kinds of Dzogchen specific empowerments or something else. If they are, I don't know whether in general, the Dzogchen empowerments look like this or it can be something like the lama guiding one through a guru yoga practice.
Did you receive teaching on "Taking the Five Poisons onto the Path" as well? Because that is the key Yangzab text on Trekchod.
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PeterC
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by PeterC »

czd wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:32 pm However, not all teachers will accept this as sufficient, this is why you must ask the organizers if it is sufficient. Some teachers consider a direct introduction to only apply to trekchod, not thogal. I am quite certain (since he is my teacher) that Khenpo Namdrol only wants people who have received empowerments like any of the four Nyinthig empowerments, the empowerments of the Gongpa Zangthal, Thigle Gyacan, Chetsun Nyinthig, the Rig pa'i rtsal dbang from Ye she Bla ma, and so on. Basically, empowerments that are based on the man ngag sde tantras.
Thank you for clarifying what will be required for this lung. We appreciate your expertise, as a newcomer this is can be confusing.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I think this would help a number of us here. In a recent retreat others have mentioned in this thread, poti wang + ngo trod was given (confirmed by the organization). I clearly remember the translator using the words "extremely unelaborate empowerment" during the wang. Is it that a variation of the poti wang?
Are you referring to Chakung Jigme Wangdruk Rinpoche? He gave the bundle of texts empowerments for the Dudjom Sungbum, to enable people to read and practice the contents of the Dudjom Tersar, which also counts as the ripening empowerment. He then gave the liberating instructions in the form of pointing out and specific practice instructions.

His intention was to allow people to engage in the practices that he shared from the DT. This isn’t the same as what Khenpo Namdrol had in mind for the qualifications for this. Now, is it commensurate in level? Sure, since we could not say that the texts of the Dudjom Tersar are lesser in terms of the nature of the instructions and the level of practice. But I’m certain if you asked either teacher they would say that receiving the former doesn’t qualify you to receive the latter. Both are excellent teachers, btw.

Basically these things are dealer’s choice. You need to receive teachings in the confidence that you are following as closely as possible the wishes of the lama giving you the teaching. It would be extremely inauspicious to try to do an end-run around the wishes that the lama had expressed.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by pemachophel »

"Basically these things are dealer’s choice. You need to receive teachings in the confidence that you are following as closely as possible the wishes of the lama giving you the teaching. It would be extremely inauspicious to try to do an end-run around the wishes that the lama had expressed."

Jetsun Milarepa's biography. He tried this and it very clearly didn't work.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Malcolm »

The question everyone must ask themselves, is this: "I am interested mainly in the book or the person?" If the answer is the former, then even if one has the requisite transmissions, one should not attend. If the answer is the former, than one should attend by all means possible. So if you are not sure, contact the organizers and ask them.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:49 am
Passing By wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:36 am
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:14 am

When Garchen Rinpoche gave teaching on Dzogchen publicly, he often equated it to Mahamudra and commented on their similarities. Very likely in this case he was referring to dzogchen practices on semde level rather than Trekchod or Thogal.
stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm


It's always best to check if its not blatant. Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory). So you can't assume just because some cycle has Dzogchen that it will have the complete empowerment with rigpa'i rtsal dbang (but with cycles like Chetsun Nyingthik, the Yeshe Lama dbangs, etc...it's probably guaranteed).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave Yangzab Shitro, the last two sections were explicitly for trekchod and thogal. I don't know if these are part of the four kinds of Dzogchen specific empowerments or something else. If they are, I don't know whether in general, the Dzogchen empowerments look like this or it can be something like the lama guiding one through a guru yoga practice.
Did you receive teaching on "Taking the Five Poisons onto the Path" as well? Because that is the key Yangzab text on Trekchod.
Not yet.

Incidentally I checked with Lerab Ling. The Yangzab Shitro empowerments do not count for this purpose.

What type of empowerment was the Yangzab Shitro then?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

Passing By wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:29 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:49 am
Passing By wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:36 am



When Garchen Rinpoche gave Yangzab Shitro, the last two sections were explicitly for trekchod and thogal. I don't know if these are part of the four kinds of Dzogchen specific empowerments or something else. If they are, I don't know whether in general, the Dzogchen empowerments look like this or it can be something like the lama guiding one through a guru yoga practice.
Did you receive teaching on "Taking the Five Poisons onto the Path" as well? Because that is the key Yangzab text on Trekchod.
Not yet.

Incidentally I checked with Lerab Ling. The Yangzab Shitro empowerments do not count for this purpose.

What type of empowerment was the Yangzab Shitro then?
There is a detailed two days Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig empowerment called Rigpa Tsal Wang (Energy of Awareness empowerment). Its much more elaborated direct introduction for the Yangzab cycle. This should be an example of the prerequisite that the others in this thread had referred to earlier. I use Yangzab since you are more familiar.

Usually after that empowerment is given, its followed up by a few days teaching on Yangzab Tregcho called "Taking the Five Poisons onto the Path" and Khandro Nyingthig Dzogrim Teachings called "The Spacious Expanse of Illuminating Primordial Wisdom". Sometimes the transmission or lungs for the entire treasure cycle is given as well.

But I am not a master about empowerments, so I don't know whether there is a concise version of that Rigpa Tsal Wang
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by czd »

PeterC wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:36 pm Are you referring to Chakung Jigme Wangdruk Rinpoche? He gave the bundle of texts empowerments for the Dudjom Sungbum, to enable people to read and practice the contents of the Dudjom Tersar, which also counts as the ripening empowerment. He then gave the liberating instructions in the form of pointing out and specific practice instructions.

His intention was to allow people to engage in the practices that he shared from the DT. This isn’t the same as what Khenpo Namdrol had in mind for the qualifications for this. Now, is it commensurate in level? Sure, since we could not say that the texts of the Dudjom Tersar are lesser in terms of the nature of the instructions and the level of practice. But I’m certain if you asked either teacher they would say that receiving the former doesn’t qualify you to receive the latter. Both are excellent teachers, btw.

Basically these things are dealer’s choice. You need to receive teachings in the confidence that you are following as closely as possible the wishes of the lama giving you the teaching. It would be extremely inauspicious to try to do an end-run around the wishes that the lama had expressed.
Yes this the recent retreat I was referring to. Thank you for the helpful response.

Just to clarify, my intention for asking the question was to understand the terminology used in that context, not to try to find a work around to receive this particular lung.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:05 pm
Passing By wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:29 pm
Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:49 am

Did you receive teaching on "Taking the Five Poisons onto the Path" as well? Because that is the key Yangzab text on Trekchod.
Not yet.

Incidentally I checked with Lerab Ling. The Yangzab Shitro empowerments do not count for this purpose.

What type of empowerment was the Yangzab Shitro then?
There is a detailed two days Khandro Nyingthig/Yangthig empowerment called Rigpa Tsal Wang (Energy of Awareness empowerment). Its much more elaborated direct introduction for the Yangzab cycle. This should be an example of the prerequisite that the others in this thread had referred to earlier. I use Yangzab since you are more familiar.

Usually after that empowerment is given, its followed up by a few days teaching on Yangzab Tregcho called "Taking the Five Poisons onto the Path" and Khandro Nyingthig Dzogrim Teachings called "The Spacious Expanse of Illuminating Primordial Wisdom". Sometimes the transmission or lungs for the entire treasure cycle is given as well.

But I am not a master about empowerments, so I don't know whether there is a concise version of that Rigpa Tsal Wang
Thanks for the clarification. Do you know who teaches Yangzab as their main teaching?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

Passing By wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:45 pm Thanks for the clarification. Do you know who teaches Yangzab as their main teaching?
Out of those still living ones, I only know Ontul Rinpoche. There might be others but I am not familiar with them.

Garchen Rinpoche did occasionally give explanations and instructions on Trekcho from yangzab under private group practices setting but he integrates all life experience and teach in such a way that you might not know which instructions are specifically taken from yangzab texts.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:45 pm Thanks for the clarification. Do you know who teaches Yangzab as their main teaching?
The Yangzab is a branch of the Khandro Nyingthig.

Most of the Yangzab is maha and anuyoga practices. Some people assert that Taking the Five Poisons as the Path is trekcho, but it is not, it is a completion stage practice of anuyoga. There is another text in Yangzab, which in a brief way covers the main path of trekcho and thogal.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:49 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:45 pm Thanks for the clarification. Do you know who teaches Yangzab as their main teaching?
The Yangzab is a branch of the Khandro Nyingthig.

Most of the Yangzab is maha and anuyoga practices. Some people assert that Taking the Five Poisons as the Path is trekcho, but it is not, it is a completion stage practice of anuyoga. There is another text in Yangzab, which in a brief way covers the main path of trekcho and thogal.
Thank you,

So Anuyoga also includes the nonconceptual style resting meditation / post-meditation practice as its dzogrim and not just only tsalung or other "with characteristics" methods?

What's the name of that text?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

Passing By wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:30 pm So Anuyoga also includes the nonconceptual style resting meditation / post-meditation practice as its dzogrim and not just only tsalung or other "with characteristics" methods?
I guess some can view it as a completion stage practice after all according to traditional yangzab progression, it would be preliminaries ===> Demon destroying king (wrathful three roots) ===>Yangzab Trekcho or Vajravarahi for those who love Tsa Lung.

And the Vajravarahi Tsa Lung can be practiced from perspectives of Union of appearance with emptiness (Anu Maha) or bliss/emptiness (Anu Anu) or awareness/emptiness (Anu Ati).
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

Kai lord wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:18 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:30 pm So Anuyoga also includes the nonconceptual style resting meditation / post-meditation practice as its dzogrim and not just only tsalung or other "with characteristics" methods?
I guess some can view it as a completion stage practice after all according to traditional yangzab progression, it would be preliminaries ===> Demon destroying king (wrathful three roots) ===>Yangzab Trekcho or Vajravarahi for those who love Tsa Lung.

And the Vajravarahi Tsa Lung can be practiced from perspectives of Union of appearance with emptiness (Anu Maha) or bliss/emptiness (Anu Anu) or awareness/emptiness (Anu Ati).
Speaking of that, Yangzab Shitro counts. Lerab Ling checked and got back to me
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

Passing By wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:31 am
Kai lord wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:18 pm
Passing By wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 5:30 pm So Anuyoga also includes the nonconceptual style resting meditation / post-meditation practice as its dzogrim and not just only tsalung or other "with characteristics" methods?
I guess some can view it as a completion stage practice after all according to traditional yangzab progression, it would be preliminaries ===> Demon destroying king (wrathful three roots) ===>Yangzab Trekcho or Vajravarahi for those who love Tsa Lung.

And the Vajravarahi Tsa Lung can be practiced from perspectives of Union of appearance with emptiness (Anu Maha) or bliss/emptiness (Anu Anu) or awareness/emptiness (Anu Ati).
Speaking of that, Yangzab Shitro counts. Lerab Ling checked and got back to me
Thats great news, now many more can attend the transmission. Rejoice!!
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by ratna »

Speaking of that, Yangzab Shitro counts. Lerab Ling checked and got back to me
Makes sense — although brief, the Yangzab Shitro empowerment includes the Dzogchen empowerments: the elaborate, unelaborate, etc.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

ratna wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 7:07 am
Speaking of that, Yangzab Shitro counts. Lerab Ling checked and got back to me
Makes sense — although brief, the Yangzab Shitro empowerment includes the Dzogchen empowerments: the elaborate, unelaborate, etc.
And its a perquisite for practicing three roots in yangzab.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Sādhaka »

A little late to mention at this point, but when you go to order the text from Berotsana:

The Precious Treasury book is restricted and may be acquired by practitioners of the Great Perfection who have received complete empowerment into the Quintessential Cycle of the Atiyoga vehicle. This would mean having received any one of the following empowerments: the Nyingtig Yabzhi, Tigle Gyachen, Yeshe Lama empowerment, Nyingtig Tsa Pod empowerment’s, and/or the specific empowerment that introduces the wisdom awareness nature of mind. In addition, the practitioner must receive the reading transmission (Lung) for this text when the opportunity arises.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Archie2009 »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:45 pm A little late to mention at this point, but when you go to order the text from Berotsana:

The Precious Treasury book is restricted and may be acquired by practitioners of the Great Perfection who have received complete empowerment into the Quintessential Cycle of the Atiyoga vehicle. This would mean having received any one of the following empowerments: the Nyingtig Yabzhi, Tigle Gyachen, Yeshe Lama empowerment, Nyingtig Tsa Pod empowerment’s, and/or the specific empowerment that introduces the wisdom awareness nature of mind. In addition, the practitioner must receive the reading transmission (Lung) for this text when the opportunity arises.
And to make sense of the root text, it is advisable to order the digital transcripts of Khenchen Namdrol Rinpoche's teachings on the Precious Treasury of the Genuine Meaning as well. Restrictions are the same as for the root text.
Khenchen Namdrol gave his complete commentary on the Precious Treasury of the Genuine Meaning over a period of five years from 2008-2012 at Orgyen Dorje Den, Alameda, CA. He described this teaching as “the most significant achievement of my life”.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Sādhaka »

Archie2009 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 2:11 pmRestrictions are the same as for the root text

On the Berotsana page it says that you have to have a relevant Empowerment to order and read the text, and also to eventually get the Lung transmission when the opportunity arises; yet for Khenpo Namdrol’s commentaries, it says that you have to have the Lung transmission of the Root text first.
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