Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

LolCat
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by LolCat »

Didn't everyone who attended the recent Dzogchen retreat by Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche receive that? Or was the empowerment in that retreat something different? Can anyone who attended please confirm?
Kai lord
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:30 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:34 pm Can I attend with my 17 tantra and Longchen Nyingtik lungs?
No. You need to have received a necessary empowerment.
I most likely don't have the time to attend this transmission so I will ask for the benefits of others since many are confused.

Is the empowerment of the three roots (outer, inner and so on) from other cycles like Longchen Nyingthik and Yangzab suffice for receiving this transmission or must the attendee receive the empowerment for the entire dzogchen cycle?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

heart wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:21 am
ninespokes wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:56 am Does receiving the four empowerments (vase, speech, wisdom, precious word) qualify as a Dzogchen empowerment?
No, in Ati "one’s mind is matured through the four ‘expressive power of awareness’ empowerments (Tib. རིག་པའི་རྩལ་དབང་, rigpé tsal wang)"

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Atiyoga

/magnus
pemachophel wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:43 pm Even if Nalanda received a Vajrakilaya empowerment, that is not a Dzogchen empowerment as stated in the prerequisites.
Could this be clarified? For example Dudjom Pudri Rekphung's 4th empowerment is, as far as appearance goes, very similar to the transmissions Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche used to give. Would that not be a rigpe tsal dbang then?

Also as someone else mentioned, the recent event with Chakung Rinpoche, he gave pointing out instructions as well as an abbreviated empowerment he said contained all 4 empowerments. Would that kind of pointing out not be a Dzogchen empowerment also?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by pemachophel »

Ngo-tro, pointing out, is not wang-kur, empowerment.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:46 pm Ngo-tro, pointing out, is not wang-kur, empowerment.
Thank you, then what about the Pudri Rekphung empowerment? Does that count as a Nyingthik empowerment?


Also, for reference's purpose. Does a Rigpe tsal dbang look different from a word empowerment where the lama holds up a crystal/mirror/shouts phet/ some other symbol such that one would know, or is it not possible to tell unless the lama describes it themself?

Otherwise whenever such requirements appear it's confusing whether one meets them or not as this thread shows
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Malcolm »

Passing By wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:58 pm
pemachophel wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:46 pm Ngo-tro, pointing out, is not wang-kur, empowerment.
Thank you, then what about the Pudri Rekphung empowerment? Does that count as a Nyingthik empowerment?
You need to ask Lerab Ling.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by pemachophel »

Passing By,

Most wangs given today include the word empowerment, but that doesn't make them Dzogchen empowerments. The list was easily understood by anyone who has actually had a Dzogchen empowerment. IMHO, if one doesn't know if they've received a Dzogchen empowerment, they haven't.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Archie2009 »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:57 pmMost wangs given today include the word empowerment, but that doesn't make them Dzogchen empowerments. The list was easily understood by anyone who has actually had a Dzogchen empowerment. IMHO, if one doesn't know if they've received a Dzogchen empowerment, they haven't.
I have to agree that if one had received a Dzogchen empowerment, one would know.

Still, you cannot blame (new) people for being confused, especially since most of these webcasts, for all their merits, aren't very educational in a theoretical sense.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by natusake »

heart wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:21 am
ninespokes wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:56 am Does receiving the four empowerments (vase, speech, wisdom, precious word) qualify as a Dzogchen empowerment?
No, in Ati "one’s mind is matured through the four ‘expressive power of awareness’ empowerments (Tib. རིག་པའི་རྩལ་དབང་, rigpé tsal wang)"

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Atiyoga

/magnus
Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche gave the pointing out instructions in that retreat. There are a few people I've seen elsewhere describe what he did as rigpé tsal wang; is that not accurate? To clarify, I'm not talking about the 4 empowerments mentioned above, but the pointing out given during the retreat.

edit: I looked into it a bit more. I was mixing up the English and Tibetan terms. Abhaya Fellowship describes what occurred as ngo trod (pointing out). But one needs direct introduction (rigpe tsal wang) for this lung. Don't pay me any mind.
Last edited by natusake on Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by ninespokes »

natusake wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:22 am
heart wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:21 am
ninespokes wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:56 am Does receiving the four empowerments (vase, speech, wisdom, precious word) qualify as a Dzogchen empowerment?
No, in Ati "one’s mind is matured through the four ‘expressive power of awareness’ empowerments (Tib. རིག་པའི་རྩལ་དབང་, rigpé tsal wang)"

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Atiyoga

/magnus
Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche gave the pointing out instructions in that retreat. There are a few people I've seen elsewhere describe what he did as rigpé tsal wang; is that not accurate? To clarify, I'm not talking about the 4 empowerments mentioned above, but the pointing out given during the retreat.

edit: I looked into it a bit more. I was mixing up the English and Tibetan terms. Abhaya Fellowship describes what occurred as ngo trod (pointing out). But one needs direct introduction (rigpe tsal wang) for this lung. Don't pay me any mind.
So, just to clarify: "direct introduction," "four ‘expressive power of awareness’ empowerments," and "rigpé tsal wang" are equivalent terms, and these are distinct from "pointing out." Is this correct?

For Lama Pema Chophel and any one else who might know, when you say you will know when you've received a Dzogchen empowerment, do you mean know experientially on the spot, or know because you will be informed that that is what you will receive?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Malcolm »

ninespokes wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:04 pm For Lama Pema Chophel and any one else who might know, when you say you will know when you've received a Dzogchen empowerment, do you mean know experientially on the spot, or know because you will be informed that that is what you will receive?
Direct introduction is a rig pa'i rtsal dbang, but there are many kinds, not only one.

However, not all teachers will accept this as sufficient, this is why you must ask the organizers if it is sufficient. Some teachers consider a direct introduction to only apply to trekchod, not thogal. I am quite certain (since he is my teacher) that Khenpo Namdrol only wants people who have received empowerments like any of the four Nyinthig empowerments, the empowerments of the Gongpa Zangthal, Thigle Gyacan, Chetsun Nyinthig, the Rig pa'i rtsal dbang from Ye she Bla ma, and so on. Basically, empowerments that are based on the man ngag sde tantras.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Virgo »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:06 pm Sad.

Well, I hope everyone else makes it to the upcoming events I shared.
It's not about these empowerments if these empowerments don't come from your guru or you cannot attend them or are not qualified to. They are not connected to your dimension, which is where you need to look. You look there by following whatever gurus and teaching you have a connection to. To you, these empowerments are functionally meaningless.

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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Passing By »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:57 pm Passing By,

Most wangs given today include the word empowerment, but that doesn't make them Dzogchen empowerments. The list was easily understood by anyone who has actually had a Dzogchen empowerment. IMHO, if one doesn't know if they've received a Dzogchen empowerment, they haven't.
Well, I've gotten empowerments that were expressly described as being for Trekchod and Thogal and which are from Nyingthik cycles but which I know they are, only because the lama explained it + the cycle is obviously a Nyingthik cycle.

If they did not describe anything and just ran through the process with little explanation, I would not be able to tell it apart from a word empowerment TBH. As such while I know I have definitely had Menngagde empowerment, there are also 1 or 2 which I am not 100% sure counts as such or not because of how similar they are. And as Malcolm says, there's also different levels to it so it seems checking with the organizers is the only sure way to go

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:32 pm

Direct introduction is a rig pa'i rtsal dbang, but there are many kinds, not only one.
Is direct introduction basically the 4th (or 5th) part of a formal complete Dzogchen cycle empowerment? Or does it mean also when a teacher instructs you on your nature of mind outside of an empowerment ceremony as an unelaborate style empowerment? Or is the latter considered ngo trod?

On a related note is it safe to assume that an empowerment from a Dzogchen terma cycle (example Rigdzin Dupa or Dudjom Khandro Thuktik) not necessarily means it is a complete Nyingthik empowerment?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by czd »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:32 pm However, not all teachers will accept this as sufficient, this is why you must ask the organizers if it is sufficient. Some teachers consider a direct introduction to only apply to trekchod, not thogal. I am quite certain (since he is my teacher) that Khenpo Namdrol only wants people who have received empowerments like any of the four Nyinthig empowerments, the empowerments of the Gongpa Zangthal, Thigle Gyacan, Chetsun Nyinthig, the Rig pa'i rtsal dbang from Ye she Bla ma, and so on. Basically, empowerments that are based on the man ngag sde tantras.
Thank you for clarifying what will be required for this lung. We appreciate your expertise, as a newcomer this is can be confusing.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I think this would help a number of us here. In a recent retreat others have mentioned in this thread, poti wang + ngo trod was given (confirmed by the organization). I clearly remember the translator using the words "extremely unelaborate empowerment" during the wang. Is it that a variation of the poti wang?
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Malcolm »

czd wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:02 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:32 pm However, not all teachers will accept this as sufficient, this is why you must ask the organizers if it is sufficient. Some teachers consider a direct introduction to only apply to trekchod, not thogal. I am quite certain (since he is my teacher) that Khenpo Namdrol only wants people who have received empowerments like any of the four Nyinthig empowerments, the empowerments of the Gongpa Zangthal, Thigle Gyacan, Chetsun Nyinthig, the Rig pa'i rtsal dbang from Ye she Bla ma, and so on. Basically, empowerments that are based on the man ngag sde tantras.
Thank you for clarifying what will be required for this lung. We appreciate your expertise, as a newcomer this is can be confusing.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I think this would help a number of us here. In a recent retreat others have mentioned in this thread, poti wang + ngo trod was given (confirmed by the organization). I clearly remember the translator using the words "extremely unelaborate empowerment" during the wang. Is it that a variation of the poti wang?
I wasn't there, so cannot comment.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by stoneinfocus »

Passing By wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:16 pm On a related note is it safe to assume that an empowerment from a Dzogchen terma cycle (example Rigdzin Dupa or Dudjom Khandro Thuktik) not necessarily means it is a complete Nyingthik empowerment?
It's always best to check if its not blatant. Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory). So you can't assume just because some cycle has Dzogchen that it will have the complete empowerment with rigpa'i rtsal dbang (but with cycles like Chetsun Nyingthik, the Yeshe Lama dbangs, etc...it's probably guaranteed).
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Passing By wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:16 pm Is direct introduction basically the 4th (or 5th) part of a formal complete Dzogchen cycle empowerment? Or does it mean also when a teacher instructs you on your nature of mind outside of an empowerment ceremony as an unelaborate style empowerment? Or is the latter considered ngo trod?
This is confusing to newcomers, but appending the name “Nyingtik” to a terma cycle does not mean all its practices are “nyingtik.” It means that the cycle contains a section of innermost secret Dzogchen menngade empowerment and instructions. That level of transmission is what is being referred to as nyingtik. The four empowerments of nyingtik is talking about this Dzogchen section and its four Dzogchen-specific empowerments which are progressively less elaborate rigpai tsal wangs. It is not talking about the usual 4 empowerments of a Mahayoga/Anuyoga yidam.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Kai lord »

stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave teaching on Dzogchen publicly, he often equated it to Mahamudra and commented on their similarities. Very likely in this case he was referring to dzogchen practices on semde level rather than Trekchod or Thogal.
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by stoneinfocus »

Kai lord wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:14 am
stoneinfocus wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 7:48 pm Last time Garchen Rinpoche gave the Konchog Chidu, he did not give the rigpa'i rtsal dbang, though he did say that the 3rd and 4th empowerments qualified one to practice Dzogchen (I believe, I could be wrong, just going off memory).
When Garchen Rinpoche gave teaching on Dzogchen publicly, he often equated it to Mahamudra and commented on their similarities. Very likely in this case he was referring to dzogchen practices on semde level rather than Trekchod or Thogal.
Looking over my notes and briefly watching that section of the recorded empowerment, he says the 4th empowerment of the Konchog Chidu qualifies one to practice the "innermost secret vajra essence" of Dzogchen. The 3rd empowerment just referred to atiyoga. So, I'm not exactly sure, but it sounds like the 4th was qualifying menngagde practice. But I don't know for sure as there was no more explained.

And this is why it is important to ask, and make sure of what empowerments are given and what they allow you to practice!
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Re: Dzogchen Lungs this July 2022 (Precious Reading Transmissions From Khen Namdrol Rinpoche)

Post by Sādhaka »

Pointing Out is usually Mahamudra terminology, basically equivalent to the Fourth Empowerment of Tantra or perhaps Atiyoga Semde level at best, if I’m not mistaken; whereas Direct Introduction would be more Dzogchen terminology.

Not that that is even very relevant to this topic; but I’d say in any case that ChNNR’s Empowerments that he gave during the Anniversaries of Garab Dorje, Guru Padmasambhava, and Adzom Drukpa would count here.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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