Personal experiences of language learning

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Punya
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Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Punya »

It's always struck me that this forum is surprisingly quiet. Perhaps we are all intimidated by the serious translators who frequent DW.

I'm interested in hearing about the bumbling (or not so bumbling) attempts of ordinary practitioners to learn Tibetan or any other dharma-related language outside formal academic settings. Each in our own unique way.

In recent years, I've found I don't do very well in classroom situations - I'm a slow learner.

I've investigated many different ways of studying classical Tibetan and all of them seem less than perfect for me. Also, there is very little of the richness of resources now found with mainstream language learning which helps maintain interest, such as word matching games and quizzes. I've therefore combined different methods and resources in order to keep going.

Last year I began by participating in an introductory Tibetan Language Institute course. I then used the course book to create Anki cards for both vocabulary and to learn the rules of the different foundational elements: subscripts, superscripts, etc. I've now begun working with the newly revised TLI coursebook 2 on my own.

I think the most difficult part of the language, so far, is the many silent letters, so I make up absurd hints like "MidKnight At the oasis" for མཁའ་ (and some that are less politically-correct) and add personally meaningful images to my slides. The part I enjoy most is writing, so I incorporate this in the language learning I do every day.

I have some recordings of the prayers in my own tradition and regularly chant along with them to have some sense of the sound of the language. This could also be done by learning colloquial Tibetan, but I haven't done this yet. I've also had a go at translating some short prayers using online tools, which helps to give some understanding of the process of translating.

Sometimes I make slow progress with my studies and sometimes I'm just treading water.

A useful tip from one of my teachers, who is a westerner and a published translator, is to read a page of Tibetan every day. You don't need to understand what all the words mean, it's just for the experience of reading through the text and attempting to pronounce the syllables - and hopefully getting faster at doing so.

What about those of you who are language learning? What have you found helpful and how do you keep motivated?
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I taught myself to speak (and read some) Mandarin Chinese. I’ve just started to learn Nepali. What helps me is to learn words and sentences that I need/want/use every day, and to repeat those a lot. Of course, go beyond that. Learn lots of words and phrases.
The next thing is to understand sentence structure. I think how Yoda talks must be based on Nepali.
And if possible, find a language exchange partner, to help you with correct pronunciation.
If you keep up with it, you will notice your own improvement and that will become your motivation.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Zhen Li »

I self-taught myself to read Chinese.

I did learn a few languages in classrooms but after you get the idea of the structure of a language, I think you can pick them up better by self-study.

Spoken language learning is different because it takes a lot more listening. I am very slow with spoken language learning.

For Buddhist Chinese, the main thing that sped up the process was access to online dictionaries. 20 years ago you needed to use a dozen different dictionaries for something like a sutra, but now you can rely on something like DDB Access which collates results from dozens of dictionaries. I think the same can be said for the THLib dictionary tool, though I found the interface less intuitive.

For characters, I used and continue to use a flashcard tool which is actually for Japanese (since I lived there for a while). So I don't read the characters with Mandarin pronunciation. This actually helps with Sanskrit transcriptions in Chinese characters.

The most important thing is extensive reading, I think. As for speaking, the most important thing would be extensive listening with mimicry. If you speak before you are used to the sounds as they are spoken by a native speaker, you will just sound like a foreigner.

For motivation, what motivates me is bodhicitta. When I look at the size of the canon and what is left to translate, it kind of feels like the age of discovery. You can go in any direction and find something no one has translated before and discover something that no one knew about.

We are still just getting our first acquaintance with Buddhism in the west.
Archie2009
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Archie2009 »

Punya wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:25 amIn recent years, I've found I don't do very well in classroom situations - I'm a slow learner.
...
What about those of you who are language learning? What have you found helpful and how do you keep motivated?
I've never done well in classroom/institutional situations. I always feel a definite need to be able to do what I want when I want to. Currently, I have motivational problems. (Plenty of shit on my plate.) No solution in sight.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I’ve been really lazy about this. At one time I’d wanted to develop a basic understanding of “Dharma Tibetan”, and never really did minus what I’ve gotten from teachers.

Everyone I’ve talked to said to get Translating Buddhism From Tibetan and work with it, despite it being old and possibly outdated. Shamefully I just haven’t put in the time even for this, and have no real excuse but laziness. I am also just not as academically inclined or educated as many here, and I wonder if that will limit my capabilities…in addition to just having a slowing middle aged brain;) I also work full time again, which doesn't help.

I still have a hard time even differentiating Tibetan syllables.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Genjo Conan
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Genjo Conan »

I'd like to learn enough Chinese to work with the Chan records, but realistically it's not going to happen unless I quit my job and go back to school.
Punya
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Punya »

Zhen Li wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:09 am I self-taught myself to read Chinese.

I did learn a few languages in classrooms but after you get the idea of the structure of a language, I think you can pick them up better by self-study.

Spoken language learning is different because it takes a lot more listening. I am very slow with spoken language learning.

For Buddhist Chinese, the main thing that sped up the process was access to online dictionaries. 20 years ago you needed to use a dozen different dictionaries for something like a sutra, but now you can rely on something like DDB Access which collates results from dozens of dictionaries. I think the same can be said for the THLib dictionary tool, though I found the interface less intuitive.

For characters, I used and continue to use a flashcard tool which is actually for Japanese (since I lived there for a while). So I don't read the characters with Mandarin pronunciation. This actually helps with Sanskrit transcriptions in Chinese characters.

The most important thing is extensive reading, I think. As for speaking, the most important thing would be extensive listening with mimicry. If you speak before you are used to the sounds as they are spoken by a native speaker, you will just sound like a foreigner.

For motivation, what motivates me is bodhicitta. When I look at the size of the canon and what is left to translate, it kind of feels like the age of discovery. You can go in any direction and find something no one has translated before and discover something that no one knew about.

We are still just getting our first acquaintance with Buddhism in the west.

Thanks Zhen Li. There is definitely a difference between learning a language in order to speak it vs. aiming to read it. I feel like I should be learning colloquial Tibetan to get a much better grasp of the sound of the language (and in order to apply all of the good advice PadmaVonSamba has given), but I find myself unmotivated until I actually have the objective of travelling to a Tibetan speaking area.

What you say about dictionaries is interesting. I have found the THLib tool very useful.

I am in awe of all of you who contribute to the translating effort. I would love to eventually help, but I suspect I don't enough of this lifetime left. Perhaps in the next one. :smile:
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
Punya
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Punya »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:38 pm
Everyone I’ve talked to said to get Translating Buddhism From Tibetan and work with it, despite it being old and possibly outdated.
Thanks JD. For some reason I haven't seriously considered this book, but now I notice in the description it talks about recognising and understanding the recurrent patterns of the language, which is exactly like my kind of thing. I'll investigate further.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Punya wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:02 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:38 pm
Everyone I’ve talked to said to get Translating Buddhism From Tibetan and work with it, despite it being old and possibly outdated.
Thanks JD. For some reason I haven't seriously considered this book, but now I notice in the description it talks about recognising and understanding the recurrent patterns of the language, which is exactly like my kind of thing. I'll investigate further.
It has a bunch of sound files too. Originally it was on tape lol, now downloadable.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Punya
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Punya »

Thanks for everyone's contribution. I have also found it really hard to get started. I think I said in another thread that I have done several beginner courses over the years. It's only now I am retired, and live in one of the Covid lockdown capitals of the world, that I have put in serious effort. I feel like it has paid off, even though I know I have just begun.

I hope I haven't given the impression that this thread is just about me. It's good to talk about the challenges of dharma-related language learning and share successes. It would be great if others join the conversation and tell us about favourite texts, learning methods, frustrations or whatever.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
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Tao
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Tao »

>I'd like to learn enough Chinese to work with the Chan records, but realistically it's not going to happen unless I quit my job and go back to school.

Haha, same situation. I just wanted to learn to read it, because I also started to do some Shodo (calligraphy) but it's too complex...

I'm fluent in three languages and I can half-understand two more, but they're european languages and they are quite similar... Chinese is a very different matter. Tibetan I presume it's too
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by PeterC »

Tao wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:03 am >I'd like to learn enough Chinese to work with the Chan records, but realistically it's not going to happen unless I quit my job and go back to school.

Haha, same situation. I just wanted to learn to read it, because I also started to do some Shodo (calligraphy) but it's too complex...

I'm fluent in three languages and I can half-understand two more, but they're european languages and they are quite similar... Chinese is a very different matter. Tibetan I presume it's too
Chinese is not fundamentally hard. Almost no morphology, very simple syntax. People give up because they don't have the patience to learn the vocabulary. But the skills needed to read and translate classical texts are not quite the same as the skills needed to speak and read contemporary Chinese. Basically you need research skills to look at how characters and phrases were used in context in comparable contemporary or precedent documents, and to understand the history of transliteration from Sanskrit into Chinese. There is a lot of very bad Dharma translation from Chinese because people jump into translating texts without really knowing how to do this.
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Tao
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Tao »

Thank you, :anjali: :anjali:

I did learn like 200 hanzi or similar, but forget all them in a year... (

I know it's nothing but If you dont practice you forget everything :D :D

I'll try my best!
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Zhen Li
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by Zhen Li »

Tao wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:54 am Thank you, :anjali: :anjali:

I did learn like 200 hanzi or similar, but forget all them in a year... (

I know it's nothing but If you dont practice you forget everything :D :D

I'll try my best!
With memorising the characters, just setting out to memorise them with flashcards or apps is useful to get your foot in the door, but it only sticks if you see it repeatedly. Just read sutras repeatedly until you get it.
PeterC
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Re: Personal experiences of language learning

Post by PeterC »

Tao wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:54 am I did learn like 200 hanzi or similar, but forget all them in a year... (
You might consider learning radicals first. There's only a couple of hundred commonly-used ones, and they are the building-blocks for the characters - when you describe an unfamiliar character to someone, you describe the position of the radicals in the character. Also when you look characters up in a dictionary, you look up by number of strokes in the radical, then by the radical, then by the number of additional strokes.
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