Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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Nilasarasvati
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Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

Hi all,

I used to be a very active on here, some of you may remember me.
In the past decade, I became very disillusioned with Tibetan Buddhist institutions and have subsequently "come back" with deep qualms. I wanted to seek the knowledge of the community here in general, and share some of my experiences. If you're a fundamentalist who can tolerate no plain-speaking talk about the questionable or atrocious behavior of certain teachers, or traditions, or have Robert Thurman's rose colored glasses about pre-invasion Tibet, read no further.

This is my abbreviated list of issues with the institution:

1. The primary horror at the abuse/corruption*
2. The secondary horror of watching apologists and fundamentalist attack dogs shame and castigate the people who spoke up about the unspeakable. Or who argue that Abuse is a skillful means and if Marpa-did-it-why-can't-he?**
3. The tertiary horror of my own teachers' silence, victim blaming, and/or equivocation about the issues.
4. Learning about the ethnic cleansing of Bhutan the 90s (Pittsburgh where I live has hundreds of thousands of these people that the Buddhist majority drove out/beat/tortured/disenfranchised) and finding out that most Bhutanese and Tibetan teachers either actively deny this halocaust happened, or collectively shrug. Or support what happened. Or genuinely believe the royal family "had no idea" and "weren't consulted."

Related/unrelated, I was a terrible drunk and stopped practicing altogether; I never lost my faith in the three jewels or the view, but really had no hope for myself or any particular community. I'm a red/black far leftist and it's very hard to accept that most of my teachers are, at best, liberal minded Monarchists and ethno-nationalists. I think it's appalling that pretty much only His Holiness the Dalai Lama has any kind of real committment to a secular, egalitarian society and most teachers I know would see no problem with turning the clock back 100 years and going back to Serfdom.

Recently, I got sober (I hope to have 6 months in July), got back into practice, committed seriously to completing the ngondro I was given a decade ago, and have been trying to set my qualms aside and re-engage with Buddhist institutions as they are, not as I wish they would be. I feel leery about literally all of my teachers, but I'm trying to hold them in gratitude and veneration, and engage in good faith in the dharma to the best of my ability. I'm keeping some distance, but I want to continue learning, practicing, and contemplating the dharma. I'm aware of Bhumisparsha and wish there were other communities of practice (WITH AN AUTHENTIC LINEAGE) that have both the authentic teachings, and a commitment to abandoning the feudalism, the cult-like dynamics, and the hierarchies typical of so many western sanghas.

I've been backreading some threads. I am asking for community members to suggest any conversations that pertain to any of the above. Catch me up on anything important that would be relevant to my interests and needs!

**I'm not the first person to say it, but if abuse was a skillful means, these people who suffered so much would be singing songs of Realization and walking on the rays of the sun, and not tortured with PTSD and going to years of therapy as a result. If you're going to argue something so obviously against the Buddha's teachings was a paradoxical cure for the Kleshas, then where's the resultant state of enlightenment? Where are the Siddhis?
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Aryjna »

It sounds like you should probably just find better teachers.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Soma999 »

Human beings are a mix of light and darkness. Even thought none are perfect, some are « good enough » to help you find your way home.

I fully agree with you that abuse is a crime, not a skillfull means. Abusive teachers like Sogyal have their place in front of a juge, or a doctor, or both.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm Or genuinely believe the royal family "had no idea" and "weren't consulted."
It is unlikely the present King of Bhutan had any idea or any say in the ethnic cleansing of the Lhotsampas. He was five when the Bhutan Citizenship Act was passed.

His father passed a policy which amounted to "Get Buddhist or get out" in 1988.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm
4. Learning about the ethnic cleansing of Bhutan the 90s (Pittsburgh where I live has hundreds of thousands of these people …)
Pittsburg has a Bhutanese refugee population of about 6,000. Where I live in Ohio, the Bhutanese refugee population is over 20,000. About 10% are Buddhist. I am working on ways to connect them and the local Vajrayana Temple.
I decided to learn to speak Nepali and am volunteering with a local Bhutanese refugee organization.
Finding a helpful project might redirect some of your energy and help get you back into the spirit of Dharma practice.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 pm
Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm
4. Learning about the ethnic cleansing of Bhutan the 90s (Pittsburgh where I live has hundreds of thousands of these people …)
Pittsburg has a Bhutanese refugee population of about 6,000. Where I live in Ohio, the Bhutanese refugee population is over 20,000. About 10% are Buddhist. I am working on ways to connect them and the local Vajrayana Temple.
I decided to learn to speak Nepali and am volunteering with a local Bhutanese refugee organization.
Finding a helpful project might redirect some of your energy and help get you back into the spirit of Dharma practice.
Thank you for correcting me. I had no idea the number was that much smaller, but of course it's absurd there'd be 100s of thousands here. I think the total number of refugees from Bhutan was in the 1-2 mil range or something.

Some kind of engagement with reality seems like a great idea. I'm currently in the process of moving cross country (to Salt Lake City). I wonder what I'll find there.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:26 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 pm
Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm
4. Learning about the ethnic cleansing of Bhutan the 90s (Pittsburgh where I live has hundreds of thousands of these people …)
Pittsburg has a Bhutanese refugee population of about 6,000. Where I live in Ohio, the Bhutanese refugee population is over 20,000. About 10% are Buddhist. I am working on ways to connect them and the local Vajrayana Temple.
I decided to learn to speak Nepali and am volunteering with a local Bhutanese refugee organization.
Finding a helpful project might redirect some of your energy and help get you back into the spirit of Dharma practice.
Thank you for correcting me. I had no idea the number was that much smaller, but of course it's absurd there'd be 100s of thousands here. I think the total number of refugees from Bhutan was in the 1-2 mil range or something.

Some kind of engagement with reality seems like a great idea. I'm currently in the process of moving cross country (to Salt Lake City). I wonder what I'll find there.
A lack of good coffee shops
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Hmm, Here's my thoughts based on reflecting on my own limited interactions with people who are "culturally Tibetan", for lack of a better description:

Western society is incredibly open in the way it addresses things today, including just talking about things that are difficult or controversial. It's -almost- without historical precedent, though I think you could argue for some similarly liberal periods in Greek and Indian history, there's still no obvious direct comparison. Tibetan Lama, etc. usually come from a very traditional culture, someone raised in that culture does not even have much of a possibility of seeing the right circumstances to become something like an anarchist. You would probably not be an anarchist if not for, to some degree setting yourself in opposition to conservative or reactionary currents in your own environment, your views come from your environment too.

I don't know what your experience is, but in my limited experience with Tibetan religious culture they just don't like talking about things that are upsetting or controversial, at all. They beat out most of the white protestants I've known in terms of kind of making politeness into a way to not talk about difficult stuff, politeness to a fault sometimes...you could say it's the opposite of our culture, which trends the other direction. This is not intended as a dig, but honestly every culture has it's things and Tibetan religious culture is probably one of the worst you could have for openly talking about things like abuse, etc.

So, you have to have some understanding that social/political views are not just about personal choices, but are largely about social conditioning, in a big way. You can't just undo that because you believe you have ideas about society that have more merit. People just don't make decision on sociopolitical issues that way. People can be brilliant about Dharma and not particularly educated or informed about other things, though we always hope that the two go together. I think that individuals have less agency wrt to their social conditioning than we often believe. It might be that people with serious realization can move past those things, and some do, but they are the unque ones, most of us are quite entrenched in endless patterns, some of which we are only vaguely aware.

That isn't to excuse any of the very many valid things you brought up, they are as bad as you say they are....I think I'm just saying that you have to have patience with the fact that other people have a completely different set of social circumstances and assumptions. We have ...occlusions to our views by definition in Samsara, we have your own too, so we may have to accept politics among Dharma peers from these cultures that are "good enough"...and if that means a sort of liberal monarchist or whatever, then that's what it means.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:11 pm So, you have to have some understanding that social/political views are not just about personal choices, but are largely about social conditioning, in a big way. You can't just undo that because you believe you have ideas about society that have more merit. People just don't make decision on sociopolitical issues that way. People can be brilliant about Dharma and not particularly educated or informed about other things, though we always hope that the two go together. I think that individuals have less agency wrt to their social conditioning than we often believe. It might be that people with serious realization can move past those things, and some do, but they are the unque ones, most of us are quite entrenched in endless patterns, some of which we are only vaguely aware.
I agree with the general analysis you've made. One of My teachers, when confronted with some of these things directly in a letter, emphasized how entitled I sounded, and said "Candor has to be earned" (I.E. we're not just going to talk about this openly with you until you gain our trust). The problem is, of course, even when an organization like the Catholic Church has engaged in lipservice "candor" for decades, they still manage to do all the same things that produce the abuse and corruption they continue to apologize for. How much more hopeless is an institution that won't even pay Lipservice, much less change anything? If Candor has to be earned with our blood sweat and tears, what do we have to do to abolish the tulku system (an invention of the late medieval era which Tibetans have a vague sense goes back to time immemorial).

Unfortunately, as is obvious, the denial and culture of secrecy, silence, and judgment does nothing but produce toxic amounts of shame, a smokescreen for atrocious behavior among those in power, and so on and so on. And it's utterly unacceptable, but its never ever going to stop without external, Material pressure (I.E. we stop giving money to monasteries). and unfortunately if I start talking that way I start sounding like I have a torch in one hand and a pitchfork in the other.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Western converts have very romanticized concepts about Buddhism, which are quickly dispelled when one spends significant time in cultures where “everyone is Buddhist”. As a whole, it creates a good society. It’s a good spiritual path. But cultures, religious and spiritual traditions are made and preserved by individuals. Very few are saints.
The idea that we should see the guru as perfect Buddha shouldn’t be taken either literally, or figuratively, but should be taken realistically.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Punya »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm Hi all,

I used to be a very active on here, some of you may remember me.
Welcome back Nilasarasvati. :hi: I'm glad you are recovering and that you have re-connected with your practice.

I think all of us have had to come to terms with the issues you are raising in our own way. I have felt uncomfortable with some of the political pronouncements of my teacher (you know who I am talking about) and I've simply unsubscribed from their Facebook page, so I can focus on how they benefit me as a Buddhist teacher. I think it's possible to separate the two, but not everyone will agree.

Also, Bhutan, for all its merits, is not the shangri-la that the west thinks it is. It has its fair share of problems.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Punya »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:58 pm
Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm Or genuinely believe the royal family "had no idea" and "weren't consulted."
His father passed a policy which amounted to "Get Buddhist or get out" in 1988.
It seems to have, to some extent, failed though. When I visited Bhutan I was told that the number of Christian adherents are growing.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Punya »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 pm
Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pm
4. Learning about the ethnic cleansing of Bhutan the 90s (Pittsburgh where I live has hundreds of thousands of these people …)
I decided to learn to speak Nepali and am volunteering with a local Bhutanese refugee organization.
Finding a helpful project might redirect some of your energy and help get you back into the spirit of Dharma practice.
Although there are few Tibetans and Bhutanese, in my area I am volunteering as an English language tutor - helping people with a range of ethnic backgrounds. It's very rewarding and definitely supports the application of dharma in daily life. But I have found it's important to find a volunteering role that you are passionate about. There are many to choose from.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Punya wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:29 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:01 pm I decided to learn to speak Nepali and am volunteering with a local Bhutanese refugee organization.
Finding a helpful project might redirect some of your energy and help get you back into the spirit of Dharma practice.
Although there are few Tibetans and Bhutanese, in my area I am volunteering as an English language tutor - helping people with a range of ethnic backgrounds. It's very rewarding and definitely supports the application of dharma in daily life. But I have found it's important to find a volunteering role that you are passionate about. There are many to choose from.
I used to tutor ESL.
Doing language exchange was how I learned to speak Mandarin Chinese
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Konchog1 »

I always found it bizarre so many lamas cite Marpa's treatment of Milarepa as a model. Milarepa was a serial killer. if a serial killer came to you and asked to be your Dharma student, you likely would 1. tell them to go away then 2. test their desire to change and then 3. have them purify the massive negative karma. In other words, exactly what Marpa did. Marpa's treatment of Milarepa was provisional, not a universal model.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Konchog1 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:28 am I always found it bizarre so many lamas cite Marpa's treatment of Milarepa as a model. Milarepa was a serial killer. if a serial killer came to you and asked to be your Dharma student, you likely would 1. tell them to go away then 2. test their desire to change and then 3. have them purify the massive negative karma. In other words, exactly what Marpa did. Marpa's treatment of Milarepa was provisional, not a universal model.
I’ve never heard of lamas using the story of Marpa and Milarepa as a model for legitimizing abuse.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:02 am
Konchog1 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:28 am I always found it bizarre so many lamas cite Marpa's treatment of Milarepa as a model. Milarepa was a serial killer. if a serial killer came to you and asked to be your Dharma student, you likely would 1. tell them to go away then 2. test their desire to change and then 3. have them purify the massive negative karma. In other words, exactly what Marpa did. Marpa's treatment of Milarepa was provisional, not a universal model.
I’ve never heard of lamas using the story of Marpa and Milarepa as a model for legitimizing abuse.
It's frustratingly common, and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche was arguably the first to set that as a norm for describing how the Guru/disciple relationship had to be one of "Surgery without anaesthesia." and other frightening, violent images. Subsequent teachers have used the rough treatment Patrul Rinpoche got at the hands of Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje as another example. The ridiculous thing about all these examples is, they are narratives that end with the Enlightenment or immediate pointing-out of the disciple. Nobody ends up shattered, traumatized, and permanently scarred as a result of the activities of a truly Realized being.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:28 am It's frustratingly common
How common is frustratingly?
What I mean is, how many examples can you actually cite?

(Is it like 100,000 bhutanese refugees in Pittsburg?
:jumping:
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:49 am
Nilasarasvati wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:28 am It's frustratingly common
How common is frustratingly?
What I mean is, how many examples can you actually cite?

(Is it like 100,000 bhutanese refugees in Pittsburg?
:jumping:
CTR used it to justify a lot of outrageous situations in Shambala,
it was later part of the general zeitgeist of trying to make sense of "the situation" at Shambala after his passing;
Dzongsar Khyentse uses Tilo, Naro, Marpa, etc. extensively to excuse outlandish or abusive behavior in Gurus in his book The Guru Drinks Bourbon as well as in countless other talks, social media posts, etc. It's those two, most prominently, that I can think of. And then legions of students parroting this. I can't cite any specific examples on Dharmawheel, but I'm certain that people have trotted this argument out numerous times, especially before the big implosions of Rigpa and Shambala in the last five years.

I think it's just an exaggeration of the theme of aceticism on the bodhisattva path. There's the Jataka tale where the Buddha gouged holes in his body in order to put candle wicks in them in order to get 4 lines of dharma. (why on earth his body made a better lamp than something else on hand never made sense to me, but clearly the point was that self-mutilation is valid if you've realized emptiness and are pursuing the Dharma)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:56 am I can't cite any specific examples on Dharmawheel, but I'm certain that people have trotted this argument out numerous times, especially before the big implosions of Rigpa and Shambala in the last five years.
Well, you cited CTR and mentioned DKR. That’s two, and while there have also been a few other examples from different traditions, for every one of them there are hundreds of teachers who are quite excellent.

I’m trying to make a point here, that it is easy to create magnified perceptions of things (that is a lot more common than abusive teachers) and then get pulled down by those perceptions, which are often exaggerated, especially when things involving famous teachers become big scandals.

And if you know what ngondro is, then you know that everything we experience is a projection of the mind.

There’s a famous bumper sticker that relates to this: “don’t believe everything you think!”
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