Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17071
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:07 am

IDK you could ask Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, were he still around, he did. Anyway while I’m forced to agree that reading Western philosophy does not lead to liberation, your total and complete dismissal of the worth of non-Buddhist thought really gave the OPs criticisms more clarity for me. Now I think I get where he is coming from a bit more.

Debating other philosophical positions requires knowing them and engaging at least enough to make a contrast, not simply calling them “mere mental masturbation” or making caricatures of them.
Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think the point here is that some people might benefit from the clarification that conversations like these provide. One doesn’t need to be in full agreement with other people to gain something in trying to understand their points of view.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 am

Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think the point here is that some people might benefit from the clarification that conversations like these provide. One doesn’t need to be in full agreement with other people to gain something in trying to understand them.
In Buddhadharma, we study tenets to reduce concepts, not to enjoy their beauty of expression.

Modern Western Philosophy, now largely divorced from soteriological concerns, is a beautiful edifice to the conceptual mind, but its meaning is coarse and shallow.

As I mentioned above, the one place Western Phil might be able to add something to Buddhadharma is a more finely articulated theory of social justice, given that no such theory was ever enunciated in the days when all rulers were absolute rulers. Buddhists are discovering there are deficits in Buddhist discourse around social justice and so on, because the migration of Buddhism to democracies is still less than a hundred years old.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17071
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm

My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think the point here is that some people might benefit from the clarification that conversations like these provide. One doesn’t need to be in full agreement with other people to gain something in trying to understand them.
In Buddhadharma, we study tenets to reduce concepts, not to enjoy their beauty of expression.

Modern Western Philosophy, now largely divorced from soteriological concerns, is a beautiful edifice to the conceptual mind, but its meaning is coarse and shallow.

As I mentioned above, the one place Western Phil might be able to add something to Buddhadharma is a more finely articulated theory of social justice, given that no such theory was ever enunciated in the days when all rulers were absolute rulers. Buddhists are discovering there are deficits in Buddhist discourse around social justice and so on, because the migration of Buddhism to democracies is still less than a hundred years old.
This reminds of places where I’ve seen HHDL say similar things, both in terms of the meeting of Western- style empiricism and of Democratic iideals with Buddhism.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17071
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Also I am not talking about “beauty of expression”, but fairly practical things.

One example is that I started reading Buddhist literature in High School following some time with existentialism. There was benefit in tacitly contemplating the first two noble truths via something like The Myth of Sisyphus. The first time I read the Turning The Wheel of Dharma Sutta it was clear what a comprehensive answer the Buddha had to the questions and claims of the existentialists I had just been reading.

Similarly, it’s good to know the worldview and ideas of someone like Daniel Dennett. While I think he is wrong, his view lays out a lot of assumptions underneath materialism that a good portion of modern societies share. So, knowing the basic tenets of modern day nihilists and/or eternalists has a functional value, at least to me, especially as regards their views on consciousness, theories of mind, etc.

There is only so much time of course, so I will not give them anywhere near the kind of time I give towards read Dharma, but there’s been some benefit to learning a bit about other views.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:29 pm
Similarly, it’s good to know the worldview and ideas of someone like Daniel Dennett. While I think he is wrong, his view lays out a lot of assumptions underneath materialism that a good portion of modern societies share. So, knowing the basic tenets of modern day nihilists and/or eternalists has a functional value, at least to me, especially as regards their views on consciousness, theories of mind, etc.
That was covered in eliminating concepts. We don't need to read Dennet, however, since the materialists have been with us for a long time, known in Ancient India as carvakas/lokayatis.

But of course, if one like to read Dennet, why not?
Leaves of Light
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:45 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:56 pm Buddhists are discovering there are deficits in Buddhist discourse around social justice and so on, because the migration of Buddhism to democracies is still less than a hundred years old.
Mipham's "The Just King" and Nagarjuna's "Letter to a Friend" and Ratnavali and other Buddhist works of this genre are helpful in this area. In fact unless I'm mistaken there is a section devoted to Nitishastra in the Tibetan Tengyur. There is also the Satyakaparivarta, also called the Bodhisattvagocara, from among the sutra corpus that teaches on this general theme although whether you'd place these kinds of works as treating "social justice" so called is up for debate, since the term "social justice" is a distinctly 21st century Western secular creation and carries with it a whole lot of baggage, ,some of which may not necessarily be of immediate interest or relevance to Buddhism. A Buddhist utopia like Shambhala would certainly be democratic for all practical purposes of individual liberty and human right, albeit ruled over by an (enlightened) king, but there is an enormous difference between say Chogyam Trungpa's ideal of the sacred Shambhala warrior, and the so called social justice warrior.
Last edited by Leaves of Light on Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Archie2009
Posts: 1577
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:39 pm

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Archie2009 »

Dennett's latest book, From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds, was such a bore. :zzz:
Leaves of Light
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:45 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Leaves of Light »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:29 pm Similarly, it’s good to know the worldview and ideas of someone like Daniel Dennett. While I think he is wrong, his view lays out a lot of assumptions underneath materialism that a good portion of modern societies share. So, knowing the basic tenets of modern day nihilists and/or eternalists has a functional value, at least to me, especially as regards their views on consciousness, theories of mind, etc.

There is only so much time of course, so I will not give them anywhere near the kind of time I give towards read Dharma, but there’s been some benefit to learning a bit about other views.
On the value of the discourses of such kinds of worldly teachers or lokayatikas there is the following noteworthy, excoriating discussion between the Buddha and one of his bodhisattva disciples, during the sojourn at the Castle of Lanka on Mount Malaya:

At that time again, Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva said this to the Blessed One:
It was told at one time by the Blessed One, the Tathagata, the Arhat, the Fully-Enlightened
One, that the Lokayatika who is [skilled in] various forms of incantation and in the art of
eloquence is not to be honoured, adored, and reverently attended upon; for what one gains
from such devotions is worldly enjoyments and not the Dharma [or Truth]. For what reason is
this said, Blessed One, that by devoting ourselves to the Lokayatika who is skilled in varieties
of incantations and in the art of eloquence, worldly enjoyments are gained but not the Dharma
[or Truth]?

Said the Blessed One: The Lokayatika who is skilled in varieties of incantations and in the art
of eloquence, Mahamati, puts the minds of the ignorant in utter confusion by means of various
reasonings, by [clever manipulation of] words and phrases, and what he teaches being the
mere prattle of a child as far as one can make out is not at all in accordance with truth nor in
unison with sense. For this reason, Mahamati, the Lokayatika is said to be skilled in varieties
of incantations and in the art of eloquence. He attracts the ignorant by making clever use of
various words, [but] he never leads them to the way of truth and right teaching. As he himself
does not understand what all things mean, he puts the minds of the ignorant into utter
confusion by his dualistic views, thus ruining himself. Not being released of the transition
from one path to another, not understanding that there is nothing but what is seen of the Mind
itself, and attaching himself to the idea of self-nature in external things, the Lokayatika knows
no deliverance from discrimination. For this reason, Mahamati, the Lokayatika who is clever
in various incantations and in the art of eloquence, being thus never emancipated from
such calamities as birth, age, disease, sorrow, lamentation, pain, and despair, leads the
ignorant into bewilderment by means of various words, phrases, reasons, examples, and
conclusions.

Mahamati, Indra was a brilliant [Lokayatika] whose knowledge made him master of many
treatises and who was himself the author of a work on sound. He had a disciple who assuming
the body of a serpent went up to heaven and got into the society of the god Indra. Making up a
thesis he challenged the god: Either your one-thousand-spoked chariot be smashed to pieces,
or every one of my own serpent-hoods be cut off. In the argument the Lokayatika disciple
who had assumed the form of a serpent defeated [the god-opponent], whereupon the one thousand-
spoked chariot was smashed to pieces. The disciple then came down again to this world. In such a
way, Mahamati, [the Lokayatika] has a system composed of various
reasonings and exemplifications, and, knowing well even the minds of the animal world, puts
the gods and fighting demons in utter confusion by means of various words and phrases; he
then makes them tenaciously adhere to the notion of coming and going (ayavyaya); how much
more human beings! For this reason, Mahamati, the Lokayatika is to be shunned, for he
carries with him the cause leading to the birth of pain. No homage, no reverence, no service is
to be shown him. Mahamati, the attainment of the Lokayatika does not go beyond the realm
of the body and knowledge belonging to it, though he may explain his materialism by using
varieties of words and phrases amounting to a hundred thousand. But in after times,
after five hundred years, divisions will take place [among his followers] leading them to
wrong reasonings and demonstrations; divisions will abound because of this, not being able to
hold disciples. Thus, Mahamati, materialism splitting into many parties and adhering to
varieties of reasonings is explained by the philosophers, each of whom clings to his way of
reasoning as he knows no truth existing by itself. While this is not at all the case with [all] the
philosophers who have their own treatises and doctrines, materialism is asserted under various
disguises which are explained by a hundred thousand different methods; there is in them
[also] no truth existing by itself, and they do not recognise that theirs is materialism because
of their stupidity.

http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... suzuki.pdf verse 173 onwards.

The Buddha goes on to explain how his spiritual, nonmaterialist, world-transcending teaching is distinct and superior to the form of teaching of such worldlings. The point made about schisms and disagreements arising among worldly philosophies and materialist sciences, due to the inherently flawed nature of their beleifs and understandings, springing up after certain period of time is also noteworthy at this time in world history.
User avatar
Konchog Thogme Jampa
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Saha World/Hard to Take

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Philosophy is just a plaything for the intellect

:thumbsup:
Kai lord
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun May 15, 2022 2:38 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Kai lord »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:18 pm Philosophy is just a plaything for the intellect

:thumbsup:
Reminded me of Pure mathematicians who love to trap themselves in abstract spaces and gauge language all day long.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
User avatar
Konchog Thogme Jampa
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Saha World/Hard to Take

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:31 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:18 pm Philosophy is just a plaything for the intellect

:thumbsup:
Reminded me of Pure mathematicians who love to trap themselves in abstract spaces and gauge language all day long.
I’ve been in Philosophy debates at University and A Level it’s just a battle of intellects dealing with content that is the domain of the intellect. Nobody got anywhere.

I was genuinely there to work out the meaning of life which was a major source of angst as a teenager.

Kant was the best with his phenomenon/noumenon treatise. But that still stayed in the domain of the intellect. But pointed beyond.

Anyway I dropped out and became a Hinayana Monk.
Leaves of Light
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:45 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Leaves of Light »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 pm I’ve been in Philosophy debates at University and A Level it’s just a battle of intellects dealing with content that is the domain of the intellect. Nobody got anywhere.

I was genuinely there to work out the meaning of life which was a major source of angst as a teenager.

Kant was the best with his phenomenon/noumenon treatise. But that still stayed in the domain of the intellect. But pointed beyond.

Anyway I dropped out and became a Hinayana Monk.
But Buddhist philosophy is exceedingly worthwhile and for many students, an indispensable part of the process of awakening. (Granted there are some examples of rare beings in history who due to their karma of past lives could awaken to buddhahood without having done any dedicated dialectical, rationalistic training, such as for example Jigme Lingpa). And a part of practicing one form of philosophy means you have to engage with other traditions so that a treatment of Buddhist philosophy will also consider non-Buddhist ones, on a cursory level at least. Even within Buddhism, there are several divergent traditions from the more material-minded such as Sarvastivada/Sautrantika up to the fully transcendent non-philosophy (nondual) of Prasangika-Madhyamaka. Since you mention the Hinayana renunciant path, then this description of Buddhaghosa is interesting:

"Buddhaghosa was a 5th-century Indian Theravada Buddhist commentator, translator and philosopher" (Wikipedia).

So even the foundational teachers of so called basic Buddhism are described as philosophers.
Last edited by Leaves of Light on Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Konchog Thogme Jampa
Posts: 1175
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:48 am
Location: Saha World/Hard to Take

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Leaves of Light wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:57 pm
Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:42 pm I’ve been in Philosophy debates at University and A Level it’s just a battle of intellects dealing with content that is the domain of the intellect. Nobody got anywhere.

I was genuinely there to work out the meaning of life which was a major source of angst as a teenager.

Kant was the best with his phenomenon/noumenon treatise. But that still stayed in the domain of the intellect. But pointed beyond.

Anyway I dropped out and became a Hinayana Monk.
But Buddhist philosophy is exceedingly worthwhile and for many students, an indispensable part of the process of awakening. (Granted there are some examples of rare beings in history who due to their karma of past lives could awaken to buddhahood without having done any dedicated dialectical, rationalistic training, such as for example Jigme Lingpa). And a part of practicing one form of philosophy means you have to engage with other traditions so that a treatment of Buddhist philosophy will also consider non-Buddhist ones, on a cursory level at least. Even within Buddhism, there are several divergent traditions from the more material-minded such as Sarvastivada/Sautrantika up to the fully transcendent non-philosophy (nondual) of Prasangika-Madhyamaka. Since you mention the Hinayana renunciant path, then this description of Buddhaghosa is interesting:

"Buddhaghosa was a 5th-century Indian Theravada Buddhist commentator, translator and philosopher" (Wikipedia).

So even the foundational teachers of so called basic Buddhism are described as philosophers.
I studied Western Philosophy that was what I was referring to based on my life experience not Buddhist Philosophy
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:07 am

IDK you could ask Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, were he still around, he did. Anyway while I’m forced to agree that reading Western philosophy does not lead to liberation, your total and complete dismissal of the worth of non-Buddhist thought really gave the OPs criticisms more clarity for me. Now I think I get where he is coming from a bit more.

Debating other philosophical positions requires knowing them and engaging at least enough to make a contrast, not simply calling them “mere mental masturbation” or making caricatures of them.
Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think you're universalizing what kind of philosopher your dad was, and maybe what kind of department he was in, with the incredibly diverse range of traditions we tend to call western (even this point is questionable, if you consider the relation between the Bactrian Kingdom India and some ancient Greek schools).
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:46 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm

My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think the point here is that some people might benefit from the clarification that conversations like these provide. One doesn’t need to be in full agreement with other people to gain something in trying to understand them.
In Buddhadharma, we study tenets to reduce concepts, not to enjoy their beauty of expression.

Modern Western Philosophy, now largely divorced from soteriological concerns, is a beautiful edifice to the conceptual mind, but its meaning is coarse and shallow.

As I mentioned above, the one place Western Phil might be able to add something to Buddhadharma is a more finely articulated theory of social justice, given that no such theory was ever enunciated in the days when all rulers were absolute rulers. Buddhists are discovering there are deficits in Buddhist discourse around social justice and so on, because the migration of Buddhism to democracies is still less than a hundred years old.
There is also quite a renaissance in returning western philosophy to it's properly ancient concern with the practical-ethical, probably best formulated by Pierre Hadot's notion of 'philosophy as a way of life.' i.e. the notion of it being a professional academic vocation, premised on refining concepts fit for publication is a very recent iteration in a long history where it was something very different. One must keep in mind that the key figures in the genesis of the tradition looked a lot more like sages than academics. Hadot's point is that one can always find philosophers or philosophical traditions which anchor the pursuit of philosophy firmly in the development of wisdom. Let's not forget what the word itself actually means.
Leaves of Light
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:45 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Leaves of Light »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:17 pm I studied Western Philosophy that was what I was referring to based on my life experience not Buddhist Philosophy
I understand, fair point. It even raises the issue of the meaning and interpretation of the word "philosopher". In some Buddhist contexts and Western translations of Buddhist texts, the word "philosopher" is, out of hand, a pejorative term which is not different to "heretic" (or tirthika) in general so that we might even need to re-evaluate what the word "philosophy" and "philosopher" means in the respective traditions. As the intersection between Eastern and Western thought continues apace, there may arise the need to scrutinize these things. When we talk about Western vs Buddhist philosophy are we even talking about the same thing, since one rests on a soteriological or religious basis, and the other perhaps more on mundane, albeit glorified, speculation for its own sake. But at the same time, it arguably wouldn't be conducive to harmonious integration of wisdom traditions to continue to automatically equate Western philosophers with "heretics". Weirdly, a curiously similar sentiment was coincidentally made by the commenter just above, at almost the exact same time.
User avatar
tobes
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:02 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by tobes »

I don't like the idea being propounded on this thread that western philosophy is always aimed at mere 'speculation' or 'mere intellectualizing'.

It can of course fall into such things. But so can Buddhism. In both cases, this says something about the agent doing Buddhism or philosophy, but not necessarily very much about what Buddhism or philosophy actually are.

Philosophy generally aims at truth (most contemporary philosophers I have met have this as an innate motivation, and it is a noble one). It tries to resolve intractable problems that other disciplines can't or won't try to resolve - so it is indeed pragmatic too. It has given birth to just about every other major discipline of knowledge - most of which we rely upon to fly our planes and structure our societies - so there is plenty of proof in the pudding that philosophy has not remained mere abstract theory.

So, you know, a bit of credit where it's due.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:44 am
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:15 pm
tobes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 am

Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
I think you're universalizing what kind of philosopher your dad was, and maybe what kind of department he was in, with the incredibly diverse range of traditions we tend to call western (even this point is questionable, if you consider the relation between the Bactrian Kingdom India and some ancient Greek schools).
I am referring to modern academy as it exists in most Anglo-American schools. The point of mentioning Garfield was that Smith’s program is actually incredibly diverse. But I have had similar breakdowns with Jay, Hubbard, etc., because they are not interested in liberation per se, but rather arguments and ideas. That’s what they are paid for, and they are quite expert in their fields.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:46 am I don't like the idea being propounded on this thread that western philosophy is always aimed at mere 'speculation' or 'mere intellectualizing'.

It can of course fall into such things. But so can Buddhism. In both cases, this says something about the agent doing Buddhism or philosophy, but not necessarily very much about what Buddhism or philosophy actually are.

Philosophy generally aims at truth (most contemporary philosophers I have met have this as an innate motivation, and it is a noble one). It tries to resolve intractable problems that other disciplines can't or won't try to resolve - so it is indeed pragmatic too. It has given birth to just about every other major discipline of knowledge - most of which we rely upon to fly our planes and structure our societies - so there is plenty of proof in the pudding that philosophy has not remained mere abstract theory.

So, you know, a bit of credit where it's due.
The aim of Buddhadharma is liberation, it presupposes a number of things foreign to what we call modern philosophy in the West. Indeed, “philosophy” as a program does not even exist in Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma does not aim for “truth for truths sake,” as conceived by westerners, an abstract principle or ideal, since it is not attainable conceptually, from a Buddhist pov.

You are conflating so called “natural philosophy,” which eventually became “science” with what we today understand as philosophy., which has largely abandoned the search for first principles.

It does not serve our purposes here to make anachronistic claims.

But all of this is really outside the scope of Buddhadharma.
Leaves of Light
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:45 am

Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Leaves of Light »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:24 am The aim of Buddhadharma is liberation, it presupposes a number of things foreign to what we call modern philosophy in the West. Indeed, “philosophy” as a program does not even exist in Buddhadharma. Buddhadharma does not aim for “truth for truths sake,” as conceived by westerners, an abstract principle or ideal, since it is not attainable conceptually, from a Buddhist pov.

You are conflating so called “natural philosophy,” which eventually became “science” with what we today understand as philosophy., which has largely abandoned the search for first principles.

It does not serve our purposes here to make anachronistic claims.

But all of this is really outside the scope of Buddhadharma.
What you correctly describe is remarkably akin to the teaching spoken by the Buddha to the rakshasa Lord Ravana, as follows:

"Lord of Lanka, this is the realisation of the great Yogins: to destroy the discourses advanced by others, to crush mischievous views in pieces, to keep themselves properly away from ego-centered notions, to cause a revulsion in the depths of the mind fittingly by means of an exquisite knowledge. Such are sons of the Buddha who walk in the way of the Mahayana. In order to enter upon the stage of self-realisation as attained by the Tathagatas, the discipline is to be pursued by thee.

"Lord of Lanka, conducting thyself in this manner, let thee be further purified in the way thou hast attained; by disciplining thyself well in Samadhi and Samapatti, follow not the state realised and enjoyed by the Shravakas, Pratyekabuddhas, and philosophers, which rises from
the imagination of those who discipline themselves according to the practices of the puerile philosophers. They cling to the individual forms of the world created by their egotistical ideas; they maintain such notions as element, quality, and substance; they cling tenaciously to
views originating from ignorance; they become confused by cherishing the idea of birth where prevails emptiness; they cling to discrimination [as
real]; they fall into the way of thinking where obtains [the dualism of] qualifying and qualified.


"Lord of Lanka, this is what leads to various excellent attainments, this is what makes one grow aware of the inmost attainment, this is the Mahayana realisation. This will result in the acquirement of an excellent condition of existence.

"Lord of Lanka, by entering upon the Mahayana discipline the veils [of ignorance] are destroyed, and one turns away from the multitudinous waves of the Vijnana [i.e., endless unprofitable and ultimately pointless discrimination] and falls not into the refuge and practice of the philosophers.

"Lord of Lanka, the philosophers' practice starts from their own egotistic attachments. Their ugly practice arises from adhering to dualistic views concerning the self-nature of the Vijnana".

When the Buddha or the sutra condemns "puerile philosophy" as an "ugly practice", as compared to the Mahayana way, it is a very powerful message.

Again, it should be noted that the term rendered as "philosopher" is in fact tirthika which in Buddhism literally means "heretic" as opposed to philosopher.
Locked

Return to “Nyingma”