Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

In general, I'm disheartened and sad about he results of the last few threads of thinking. My problem in general on Dharmawheel is this: I rarely if ever disagree with anything that people bring up in good faith. I feel I learn a great deal from the perspectives I see on here. However, I feel in general that few people on here:

1. Understand (or even care) what I actually mean,
2. Give it a generous interpretation,
3. Reflect any understanding or empathy of WHY I'd think that way,
4. Contribute to dialogue and sensemaking rather than debate or Scoring Points.

I learn a lot from you, basically. I don't feel like almost anybody is learning from or cares what I'm thinking , or has a sense of curiousity about it.
Last edited by Nilasarasvati on Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

For one example;

I am trying to communicate a broad and general qualm with chavinism and exclusionary/fundamentalist attitudes in our traditions. I am trying to articulate that there is worth and merit of all kinds across cultures. And there are ways of contemplating that that behoove our cultivation of the brahmaviharas etc. Seems pretty uncontroversial, right?

To meditate on Christ as a bodhisattva who absorbed the negative karma of his persecutors and practiced something akin to Tonglen during the crucifiction, for example, is far more meritorious and an opportunity for gaining merit, than by thinking of his as just a filthy eternalist who did no good. You don't have to be a christian to do this. Whether he "really" was or wasn't is utterly missing the point; the historical jesus is immaterial to what I'm talking about. It's about practicing the view. Seeing all phenomena and beings as Chenrezig. Or whoever.

And instead of any acknowledgment that or engaging with my meaning, people have seized on very minute particular about my statement that Pramana, for example, could be improved upon. Worthwhile points! Very valid! Missing the forest, though.
Last edited by Nilasarasvati on Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Sangyedorje »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 pm For one example;

I am trying to communicate a broad and general qualm with chavinism and exclusionary/fundamentalist attitudes in our traditions. I am trying to articulate that there is worth and merit of all kinds across cultures. And there are ways of contemplating that that behoove our cultivation of the brahmaviharas etc. Seems pretty uncontroversial, right?

And instead of any acknowledgment that or engaging with my meaning, people have seized on very minute particular about my statement that Pramana, for example, could be improved upon. Worthwhile points! Very valid! Missing the forest, though.
I think, in general, it's important not to get sucked up into the specifics of this stuff. I've often heard that the real practice is what happens after you get up off your seat. I think you're on the right path. As long as you're cultivating the 4 immeasurables and aiming to perfect the 6 paramitas as well as developing mindfulness and awareness, there is no higher practice than this.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 pm For one example;

I am trying to communicate a broad and general qualm with chavinism and exclusionary/fundamentalist attitudes in our traditions.
The ripening of karma excludes people from our traditions. One either has the gathered the roots of virtue to even hear the name "Buddha" or one has not. It is not question of fundamentalist attitudes. All sentient beings have the potential to awaken. Very few sentient beings meet the proper set of conditions, the eight freedoms and ten endowments, so that becomes a real possibility for them in this lifetime. This is the difference between natural gotra, which all sentient beings possess, and developed gotra, which exists only in those who have undertaken to follow the bodhisattva path in some lifetime or another. Since below the 7th bhumi, bodhisattvas lose their awakening entirely in every birth, it is very possible there are many beings in many dimensions who pursue this or that religious career, notable primarily for their compassion. But, in absence of the Buddhadharma, they certainly cannot directly lead people to liberation, the best they can do is encourage people to behave virtuously. The Jataka tales exemplify this.
I am trying to articulate that there is worth and merit of all kinds across cultures.
Yes. Of course.
And instead of any acknowledgment that or engaging with my meaning, people have seized on very minute particular about my statement that Pramana, for example, could be improved upon. Worthwhile points! Very valid! Missing the forest, though.
Why bother, unless it is of interest to you. You have not really examined why epistemology was taken up in Buddhism, where it was rejected by Nāgārjuna. The answer is pretty simple: epistemology was taken up with a view to convince tīrthikas that the Buddha was omniscient with respect to liberation without recourse to any of our own scriptures. I am not sure that is a worthwhile goal to pursue with Post-Quine logic.

There really isn't anything Western philosophy can add to Buddhadharma, other than perhaps a more clearly articulated theory of social justice, ala Rawls, etc. But these are mundane considerations, as I mentioned above, more in line with what we call Nitiśastras, treatises on governance. Why would Buddhadharma need such a theory articulated? Because for most of its history, Buddhism has flourished in the context of absolute monarchies. Therefore, deeply considered ethical treatises which considered things from the point of view of multiple stakeholders other than kings and aristocrats became more important. And also, there were in India manuals on statecraft like Kautilya's Arthaśastra. Buddhism has never confronted democracy, so Buddhists are still working out how democracy and Buddhism will interact, etc. Therefore, if there is philosophical work to be done, it is in this area, but definitely not when it comes to the path or liberation.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:36 pm For one example;

I am trying to communicate a broad and general qualm with chavinism and exclusionary/fundamentalist attitudes in our traditions. I am trying to articulate that there is worth and merit of all kinds across cultures. And there are ways of contemplating that that behoove our cultivation of the brahmaviharas etc. Seems pretty uncontroversial, right?

To meditate on Christ as a bodhisattva who absorbed the negative karma of his persecutors and practiced something akin to Tonglen during the crucifiction, for example, is far more meritorious and an opportunity for gaining merit, than by thinking of his as just a filthy eternalist who did no good. You don't have to be a christian to do this.

And instead of any acknowledgment that or engaging with my meaning, people have seized on very minute particular about my statement that Pramana, for example, could be improved upon. Worthwhile points! Very valid! Missing the forest, though.
I actually agree with the gist of what you are saying, my only gripe is that I think it is too generic and paints people as one thing all the time.

I don’t know about you, but I feel like if I’m honest some of my teachers have been very orthodox and also completely the opposite. At times I have been surprised by the lack of knowledge about other traditions, other areas of thought, etc.
Other times it’s the opposite and I’ve seen a real curiosity and openness about looking at other views.

The other thing is, if we are talking about Vajrayana teachers, their time probably-is- better spent on their own tradition than reading Spinoza or something. That’s not to say they do not benefit from wider exposure, I think part of what makes HHDL so unique is his ability to bridge these sorts of gaps and to engage with elements of “Western” intellectual tradition. There is only so much time though, and if a teacher has to prioritize then the choice is obvious.

The thing is, someone has to be the guy that checks all the orthodox boxes, reads almost nothing outside of Dharma, eats off the right plates, etc.

Someone also has to be the guy that is more outward facing and engages at the edges of the mandala with the rest of the world. Both exist, both are needed for any tradition to function and continue.

Honestly though, DW is way more this way than any of my teachers have been. I don’t think you can somehow measure what Vajrayana teacher attitudes are like on DW. I have asked my teachers about arguments we’ve had here and they were kind of like “whatever, stop messing around”.

Westerners in Vajrayana are hyper vigilant about orthodoxy and orthopraxy, I won’t judge whether that’s good or bad, but it is so IMO. I’ve been in meatspace teachings so many times where it’s -the students- drawing their teachers into these somewhat nitpicky conversations, where the teacher was not focused there to begin with, and seemed to find the focus on orthopraxy strange, even if they obliged it happily.

I think it is part of Vajrayana being transmitted here, the process is unavoidable, if absurd at times.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Sometimes people direct their inward experiences outward. Like, if your house gets robbed, you project that out and your experience is that there is a rising crime wave everywhere, even if there isn’t. Maybe the crime rate is decreasing. But our projection of our experience makes it seem otherwise.

A lot of times, when I hear people talking about what’s wrong with the dharma in general, it’s really about some experience of theirs. So, if I see Jesus as a Bodhisattva and that somehow works for me, Buddhism has a problem because it doesn’t recognize Jesus as a Bodhisattva. If I , personally have experienced an abusive teacher, then abuse is therefore widespread.

There’s probably a western scientific name for this. Remember ‘chat rooms’ in the mid 90s? I used to get on those. A couple of interesting things happen when you are on chat rooms. One is that in your mind you create entire personalities of others in chat rooms who are regulars there. That probably happens on web forums too, to some extent.

But the really interesting psychological thing is that somehow, probably because they are live, in real time, you get the feeling that like, everybody is on chat rooms. That’s another manifestation of directing inward experiences outward. In fact, chat rooms were always a small fraction of web users.

I’ve experienced this ‘outward projection’ myself many times. It’s like the world becomes a mirror reflecting your own thoughts.
Thoughts about how to “fix” all of the things in my local sangha would always come to mind. I think this is why lamas dismiss too much indulgence or concern about some issues (not the same as ignoring actual problems) and tell folks to go back and meditate or get busy with ngongdro or whatever, because it’s all just more ‘play of the mind’ and everybody churns it up.

I found a good way (for me …not necessarily for everybody😄) to see if this is happening, and that is to visualize everything fixed the way you want it to be, all of the issues resolved, and picture what exactly that would look like. I have never found it to be satisfactory or realistic. There are always more people involved than just me! It’s very hard to do that. Then I realize what a lot of time is wasted, when I might be dead by tomorrow.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:02 pm This is exactly what bothers me. This general notion that nothing worthwhile or relevant to dharma has happened since Nalanda in the entire rest of the planet's intellectual life…It's absurd…
The reason you find so many Buddhist practitioners utterly uninterested in anything but Buddhist teachings (as far as application to the path of liberation goes) is because Buddha Shakyamuni defined the problem we’re dealing with lifetime after lifetime ad infinitum, the causes of that problem, the fact that there is a way to purify those causes, and then he defined that path. In terms of the *path to liberation*, there is absolutely no need to know a single other theory or philosophical framework whatsoever. None. It’s all 1000% beside the point where liberation is concerned. It’s mere intellectual masturbation. It’s the incessant need to grasp at more and more, never being satisfied with having all you already need—or not realizing the value of what you already have. If all you need to do is start a fire and you have literally all of the only necessary materials to do so, and instructions on how to use them to start a fire, and you’re freezing and starving, you’re going to be wholly uninterested in treatises about various philosophers’ musing and convictions about fire.

This life is short, and samsara ain’t purifying itself, so if I’m using any of my time to read something besides Dharma it sure as shit isn’t other varieties of conceptual elaboration; I’m gonna read some fiction or non-fiction that I find entertaining; otherwise I’m listening to music or watching something entertaining or hiking or biking, etc.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:49 am
Nilasarasvati wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:02 pm This is exactly what bothers me. This general notion that nothing worthwhile or relevant to dharma has happened since Nalanda in the entire rest of the planet's intellectual life…It's absurd…
The reason you find so many Buddhist practitioners utterly uninterested in anything but Buddhist teachings (as far as application to the path of liberation goes) is because Buddha Shakyamuni defined the problem we’re dealing with lifetime after lifetime ad infinitum, the causes of that problem, the fact that there is a way to purify those causes, and then he defined that path. In terms of the *path to liberation*, there is absolutely no need to know a single other theory or philosophical framework whatsoever. None. It’s all 1000% beside the point where liberation is concerned. It’s mere intellectual masturbation. It’s the incessant need to grasp at more and more, never being satisfied with having all you already need—or not realizing the value of what you already have. If all you need to do is start a fire and you have literally all of the only necessary materials to do so, and instructions on how to use them to start a fire, and you’re freezing and starving, you’re going to be wholly uninterested in treatises about various philosophers’ musing and convictions about fire.

This life is short, and samsara ain’t purifying itself, so if I’m using any of my time to read something besides Dharma it sure as shit isn’t other varieties of conceptual elaboration; I’m gonna read some fiction or non-fiction that I find entertaining; otherwise I’m listening to music or watching something entertaining or hiking or biking, etc.
While this might be correct in terms of liberation, taking it too far can sometimes make for an inflexible and one dimensional personality, which is fine if your life is just Dharma practice, not great if it’s not.

If it’s not, it’s a good idea to know about some other things, simply in terms of relating to the world. Funnily enough, none of my teachers were this dismissive about general learning in other fields, and some have even encouraged it.

The is plenty of mental masturbation in institutional Buddhism.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Johnny, I specified *as it relates to the path of liberation*. As in achieving one’s own liberation. I have lots of other interests I read about just for my own edification and enjoyment, quite apart from my path to liberation. And certainly one’s usefulness to others in this life, and one’s enjoyment of this life, will be expanded by learning a range of topics of knowledge beyond Dharma. I don’t see reading about a bunch of dead European philosophers is going to help the average sentient being, but if one finds them interesting then hell yeah, dig in. But again, Nilasaravati was speaking as if Dharma’s path to liberation needs to be supplemented by Spinoza and Nietzche, et al.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:59 am Johnny, I specified *as it relates to the path of liberation*. As in one’s own liberation. I have lots of other interests I read about just for my own edification and enjoyment, quite apart from my path to liberation. And certainly one’s usefulness to others can be positively impacted by reading more widely. I don’t see reading about a bunch of dead European philosophers is going to help the average sentient being, but if one finds them interesting then hell yeah, dig in.
IDK you could ask Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, were he still around, he did. Anyway while I’m forced to agree that reading Western philosophy does not lead to liberation, your total and complete dismissal of the worth of non-Buddhist thought really gave the OPs criticisms more clarity for me. Now I think I get where he is coming from a bit more.

Debating other philosophical positions requires knowing them and engaging at least enough to make a contrast, not simply calling them “mere mental masturbation” or making caricatures of them.

I haven’t read any of that stuff in years, minus a couple existentialists, but I’m not going to assume it benefits no one whatsoeverthat strikes me as an arrogant and unfounded assumption to make about your own ability to know what benefits others.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Sorry, took me a couple edits to articulate my thoughts more accurately.

In any case, I don’t have any idea what Traleg Kyabgon’s motivation for studying Western Philosophy was, so I can’t speak on that, but I guarantee it won’t help me accomplish my sadhana or rest in the natural state any better, so it’s kind of moot to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:20 am Sorry, took me a couple edits to articulate my thoughts more accurately.

In any case, I don’t have any idea what Traleg Kyabgon’s motivation for studying Western Philosophy was, so I can’t speak on that, but I guarantee it won’t help me accomplish my sadhana or rest in the natural state any better, so it’s kind of moot to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️
Then why even bother posting about it? Do you think we need practice reminders of this sort? That level of parochialism again just lends clarity to the OPs complaints.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by tobes »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:07 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:59 am Johnny, I specified *as it relates to the path of liberation*. As in one’s own liberation. I have lots of other interests I read about just for my own edification and enjoyment, quite apart from my path to liberation. And certainly one’s usefulness to others can be positively impacted by reading more widely. I don’t see reading about a bunch of dead European philosophers is going to help the average sentient being, but if one finds them interesting then hell yeah, dig in.
IDK you could ask Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, were he still around, he did. Anyway while I’m forced to agree that reading Western philosophy does not lead to liberation, your total and complete dismissal of the worth of non-Buddhist thought really gave the OPs criticisms more clarity for me. Now I think I get where he is coming from a bit more.

Debating other philosophical positions requires knowing them and engaging at least enough to make a contrast, not simply calling them “mere mental masturbation” or making caricatures of them.
Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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tobes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:07 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:59 am Johnny, I specified *as it relates to the path of liberation*. As in one’s own liberation. I have lots of other interests I read about just for my own edification and enjoyment, quite apart from my path to liberation. And certainly one’s usefulness to others can be positively impacted by reading more widely. I don’t see reading about a bunch of dead European philosophers is going to help the average sentient being, but if one finds them interesting then hell yeah, dig in.
IDK you could ask Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, were he still around, he did. Anyway while I’m forced to agree that reading Western philosophy does not lead to liberation, your total and complete dismissal of the worth of non-Buddhist thought really gave the OPs criticisms more clarity for me. Now I think I get where he is coming from a bit more.

Debating other philosophical positions requires knowing them and engaging at least enough to make a contrast, not simply calling them “mere mental masturbation” or making caricatures of them.
Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
I didn’t know this, I am really fond of his books and couldn’t agree more.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Kai lord »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:21 pm
Kai lord wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:37 am
Nilasarasvati wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:07 am

You don't know what you're talking about. And no, it doesn't suffice for now. And you're wrong about almost every single thing you articulated.You're adopting a primary schooler's understanding of Christian theology, it's bad faith and I'm not going to dignify it with the thorough dissection it probably demands. In general, you've assumed that Christ said a bunch of things that his dubious followers say, but which the Jesus of the gospels did not.
Dubious followers? Out of two billions of them? Thats just unwarranted pure arrogant on your part as far as I can see. You have not demonstrated how your interpretation of Christ prove to be much accurate than those Church theologians who had debated and solidified Christianity doctrines over the centuries. Or do you simply accusing the church of massively twisting Christ's words? If thats the case, do you have proofs rather than conjectures?

For example, are you a historian on Christ who have some special documents on what consolidates real or fake gospel verses that are added or deleted to and from Jesus?
Most importantly, Christ endorsed universal mercy and compassion toward others, regardless of religion or status (romans, thieves, prostitutes etc).
You intentionally dodged and refused to address the point about Christ not showing compassion to non believers, hell beings (demons) and animals. Thats just pure intellectual dishonesty

Showing compassion to just humans, is far from what Bodhisattvas are all about. You simply prove my point
Most importantly, Christ never said anything about hell. Hell (and heaven for that matter) and the SOUL itself were medieval additions to Christian belief.
99.9% of the Christians out there will disagree with you. Even the current liberal pope and his cardinals will not think that way and you claimed to know better than them without demonstrating otherwise. Its clear who is having rose coloured lenses.
I think you're committed to misunderstanding me.I have no idea what you're talking about regarding me saying I know better than the pope, among many other statements you've made. You're not even engaging with my actual meaning nor do you seem to understand what I mean. This is not a dialogue, it's two monologues, so I'll let that be my last word.
Your extraordinary claims about Jesus not teaching heaven, hell, etc, require extraordinary evidences of which you have provided none. Zero.

So whats the point of hearing about your non Christian opinions about what Christians should have believed or include in their doctrines when you can't provide basic historical evidences to back your claims? Its meaningless. Its equivalent to hearing youtubers talking about how Einstein is wrong without providing experimental results.

In fact any attempt to make Jesus bodhisattva will inevitably be seen as a subsume attempt by the Christians, inviting unnecessary religious verbal wars. Since Buddhists already don't like vedic followers doing that to Buddha (As Vishnu avatar), we shouldn't try to do the same to other religions.

You are right about us not agreeing on this issue, this will be last word on this matter as well.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:45 pm
A lot of times, when I hear people talking about what’s wrong with the dharma in general, it’s really about some experience of theirs. So, if I see Jesus as a Bodhisattva and that somehow works for me, Buddhism has a problem because it doesn’t recognize Jesus as a Bodhisattva. If I , personally have experienced an abusive teacher, then abuse is therefore widespread.
Its okay to view Jesus and his dad as devas, the latter even as Brahma which is, in my opinion, already much better than how many buddhists view Yahweh. See the lsample below:
.....the abrahamic/monotheist religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) were caused by such powerful pretas with imperialist tendencies.....
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Johnny,

To be honest, I posted due to my exasperation at this perennial complaint about the lack of basically a Western fourth turning of the wheel that people addicted to elaboration bring up on the Internet year after year. I won’t pretend it was an enlightened response, just an honest one that doesn’t contain an iota of parochialism.

Honestly, as far as Dharma studies go, I feel like getting a basic understanding of Abidharma a la something like Mipham’s Gateway to Knowledge; a solid working understanding and contemplation of emptiness a la Nagarjuna’s Mulamadhamakakarikas; and then focusing studies on Dzogchen texts that develop one’s understanding of one’s basis and how to recognize and rest in knowledge of it; coupled with cushion time practicing rushens, semdzins, tregchöd, and eventually togal, are virtually all one needs for one’s Dharma practice, besides inspirational stuff about bodhichitta and the masters of the lineage, and literature that enhances one’s absorption of the four thoughts in one’s continuum, and so on. Anyway, I’ve made my points, so I’ll try not to belabor them any further. And I suppose others’ mileage may vary.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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Nilasarasvati wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:07 am Most importantly, Christ never said anything about hell. Hell (and heaven for that matter) and the SOUL itself were medieval additions to Christian belief.
Absolute nonsense. Have you even read the bible? Here's one obvious citation, there are others.

Luke 16: 19-31, parable of Lazarus:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Kai lord wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:50 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:45 pm
A lot of times, when I hear people talking about what’s wrong with the dharma in general, it’s really about some experience of theirs. So, if I see Jesus as a Bodhisattva and that somehow works for me, Buddhism has a problem because it doesn’t recognize Jesus as a Bodhisattva. If I , personally have experienced an abusive teacher, then abuse is therefore widespread.
Its okay to view Jesus and his dad as devas, the latter even as Brahma which is, in my opinion, already much better than how many buddhists view Yahweh.
My point is, if you want to regard Jesus as a Bodhisattva, that’s in your own head, and that’s fine for you. But a person shouldn’t decide somehow it’s the fault of Buddhism or if Buddhists if that’s not the general or “official” view of Jesus or the abrahamic god.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Archie2009
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Archie2009 »

Richard Dawkins is da bomb when it comes to Yahweh:
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a mysogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

For further elucidation see Dan Barker: link
Have either popcorn or a bucket at hand.

PS See also Barker's last chapter titled "What About Jesus?"
Malcolm
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

tobes wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:25 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:07 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:59 am Johnny, I specified *as it relates to the path of liberation*. As in one’s own liberation. I have lots of other interests I read about just for my own edification and enjoyment, quite apart from my path to liberation. And certainly one’s usefulness to others can be positively impacted by reading more widely. I don’t see reading about a bunch of dead European philosophers is going to help the average sentient being, but if one finds them interesting then hell yeah, dig in.
IDK you could ask Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche, were he still around, he did. Anyway while I’m forced to agree that reading Western philosophy does not lead to liberation, your total and complete dismissal of the worth of non-Buddhist thought really gave the OPs criticisms more clarity for me. Now I think I get where he is coming from a bit more.

Debating other philosophical positions requires knowing them and engaging at least enough to make a contrast, not simply calling them “mere mental masturbation” or making caricatures of them.
Traleg was one of my main teachers; he encouraged me to study western philosophy alongside doing ngondro etc. He was quite a beautiful, understated scholar, and his work on Asanga has little droplets of Husserl in it. Being able to converse across cultures, in a genuine and open way - whilst not diluting one's own standpoint, is extremely powerful and enriching.
My father was a professor of philosophy. He worked in the same department as Jay Garfield. We discussed these issues frequently. At base, we can discover that modes of argument might be the similar. However, there is a disconnect between what western philosophers do, and the aims of Madhyamaka or Abhidharma, and this is where conversations between me and my dad consistently broke down.
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