Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pmI'm a red/black far leftist and it's very hard to accept that most of my teachers are, at best, liberal minded Monarchists and ethno-nationalists. I think it's appalling that pretty much only His Holiness the Dalai Lama has any kind of real committment to a secular, egalitarian society and most teachers I know would see no problem with turning the clock back 100 years and going back to Serfdom.
(A red black to a red black: ) HHDL is not alone. There are plenty of teachers committed to social change but they have to tread with extreme care. Some of them find themselves in PRC. Some are exiles in increasingly jingoistic and bloodthirsty India. Some in Nepal, precariously placed between China and India. And some in Bhutan, an otherworldly pocket that could be obliterated in a few hours. India, Nepal and Bhutan are living through, and reacting against a neocolonial hell, and such reactions are seldom nice. It would be a miracle if anything socially emancipating could emerge and persist in such environments. Postcolonial studies help a lot here.

Then there indeed are vast cultural differences, which must be understood, and handled, with great sensitivity; this alone is a daunting challenge. Nothing easier than judging the Other in terms of our own framework.... PS. When a Tibetan lama says that respect has to be earned, he has every right to say so, and it would be probably better for us to go an extra mile here; after all, it is their culture that is hosting something we are interested in. It is our responsibility, however, to ensure that Vajrayana in the West reflects that which is truly valuable about our heritage.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by nyonchung »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:34 am
Nilasarasvati wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:00 pmI'm a red/black far leftist and it's very hard to accept that most of my teachers are, at best, liberal minded Monarchists and ethno-nationalists. I think it's appalling that pretty much only His Holiness the Dalai Lama has any kind of real committment to a secular, egalitarian society and most teachers I know would see no problem with turning the clock back 100 years and going back to Serfdom.
(A red black to a red black: ) HHDL is not alone. There are plenty of teachers committed to social change but they have to tread with extreme care. Some of them find themselves in PRC. Some are exiles in increasingly jingoistic and bloodthirsty India. Some in Nepal, precariously placed between China and India. And some in Bhutan, an otherworldly pocket that could be obliterated in a few hours. India, Nepal and Bhutan are living through, and reacting against a neocolonial hell, and such reactions are seldom nice. It would be a miracle if anything socially emancipating could emerge and persist in such environments. Postcolonial studies help a lot here.

Then there indeed are vast cultural differences, which must be understood, and handled, with great sensitivity; this alone is a daunting challenge. Nothing easier than judging the Other in terms of our own framework.... PS. When a Tibetan lama says that respect has to be earned, he has every right to say so, and it would be probably better for us to go an extra mile here; after all, it is their culture that is hosting something we are interested in. It is our responsibility, however, to ensure that Vajrayana in the West reflects that which is truly valuable about our heritage.
Something sensible at least ... but, see how you deep you are (quite unvoluntarily) into cultural assimilation (and in terms of profit, strangely) what is "truly valuable about our heritage"?
Otherwise, HHDL is in speaking terms since long with VHP, and validated India's claim on Arunachal (actually stolen by the British in the 30s in violation of the 1914 Simla agreement), this to say that Tibetans position in India is precarious since day 1 - 63 years and mlre than two generations.
The Bhutan problem come in great part from British colonial policis, hundreds of thousend of Nepalis soldiers were not allowed to return home (ritual impurity) after WWI & II and were sent to Assam, Burma (all thrown brutally away at independance) to be used as cheap labor and tho keep tribals at bay.
Same goes with Rohingya in Burma, Tamil in Sri Lanka ... not to forget Darjeeling and Sikkim, the Rana governement sold families to British India so the original Lepcha and Tibetan (Buhia) will be overpowered
The Bhutan crisis has a lot do with the Darjeeling (Gorkkha) problem and, that may seem strange to you, with Nepal's domestic policies:
the ultra-royalists always dreams to go back to "Greater Nepal from Garhwal to Kalimpong, and at the time of the 1992 revolution, both Nepal

And Nepali Congress and the two main branches of the Communist Party of Nepal (splts and reunites incessantly) called publicly for a revolution in Bhutan too, and promised land to Nepalese and Gorkhalis (Darjeeling) who would help to overthrow the "illegitimate" monarchy, illigetimate among other things, because in the Hindu cast world, Bhote / Bhutias / Tibetans are cow-eaters (and even killers) - outcasts, in other worlds. Which proper Hindu of good or acceptable birth (be it a communist) could accept to be ruled by a cow-eater?

I was in Nepal then (Nepali speaking since 1987), and obviously the promise of land was heard by some
In Darjeeling notably - that I know also well - that suffered greatly during the Gorkha movement culminating in1988 - event involving some Nepalesz ultra-nationalists)
Not to forget the role of varioius Christian denominations - positive at times in terms of caritative work, but clearly in a scenario scripted in some Washington offices: I witnessed twice (Nepal and Mongolia) evangeltsts providing US green cards and even citizenships by the number of converts you bring - plus cash (also very active in parts of Assam where there's - guess what - oil)
I even witnessed a training camp near Kathmandu for the new "pastors", techniques of crowd and individual manipulation, drawn directly from the book written by French army's special servives in Algeria, transfered (with US assistance) in South American- and since widely distributed
No doubt Bhutanese overreacted (never forget that the first census was 1988, followed Gorkha agitation in Darjeeling. Many Nepalese from there were trying their luck elsewhere. Bhutanese authorities had in mind what happened in Sikkim before, and some places in Assam.
Plus some of the movements were pretty violent (certainly not "democratic" , had direct connections with Nepalese political parties (seems that some "party workers" were trained in Nepal, possibly involving a few Nepalese, the Nepalese press never hid this, far from it ...and certainly mostactivists clamed that Bhutanese culture had to be eradicated (brutally)

From various Nepalese sources, plus a UN officer directly involved, a significant number of refugees (even with relatively tolerant norms) could not fully qualify, a percentage possibly coming from Assam, Darjeeling and even Nepal
They've been riots in Eastern Nepal when people found that the refugees were given actually more that they got (nothing, this is), plus would possibly go the US cost-free (an impossible dream to many Nepalis)
Your perhaps saw images of the camps (avalaible on the net still, I think) can you imagine the living conditions of their neighbours.
It seems that , at the end, if one counts the refugees relocated in various countries (the US far ahead), the few left in limbo in Nepal (usually elders, and now without much support), the few hundreds accepted back in Bhutan and you end up with a number of resetlled refugees superior to the UN recorded numbers of refugees, add to that a number, difficult to evaluate, of people who resettled early , unrecorded, in Assam, or Darjeeling if they had family roots there (or,even, came straight from there)
Camps ended being run by Lutherians.
Total accepted by the US: 92,323

That Nepal never accepted to take part of them (even if over 90% of refugees coming originally from Nepal directly, or no more than a few generations) is simply due do the fact that Nepal is an over-populated country, that exports population since long, plus the fact that some Nepalese politicians prefered to see their role in instigating the crisis forgotten. One reason being that India (thetaht as a graat say ine Nepalese politics) , got highly disturbed by the fact this was happenig in the most sensible geographical part of the country, the Siliguri corridor. The Nepal/India, Bhutanese refugee camps is some 20 kms from the India/ Bangla Desh. Check on a map. Z-Ang-d China not very far, cofortablu sitting on the top of the Himalayas
The access to Eastern Indian ressources can be easily cut, an economic and strategic disaster?. So India decided to freeze the situation, and was certainly happy to have this lakh refugees sent to the US.

There are certainly cultural issues, and local politics issues, but caught in context locals actors are not even aware of, when aware, have no control on (and can be easlily manipulated) - much larger actors are involved.
I tend to see this as a direct consequence of the British Imperial rule, and the beginning of reshaping of this part of world according to the needs of the US empire (of the version 0.2 - open society) ... poor guys caught in the middle.
I met some Lhotsampas in Bhutan, some were bit shy (better to be) but some were supportive of the monarchy ) i had their own versions, and they also point the aggressive behaviour of some revolutionnary elements that justified a brutal reaction by ruthless members of the security forces andd part ot (small) ruling elite. They seem to be losing ground (we could add the story of the Bodo Liberation Fronf, that'll be too long - but we cabn infer in this case the long shadow of India)
Never forget that Bhutan's independance is completely dependent on India - by treaty

This was just a few hints to the complexities of the specific case of Bhutan , mentioned at the beginning of this thread - they certainly got weird when faced with a direct manace. And if you look at Bhutan's history, they're quite fierce warriors (Gorkhas too, and long ago they allied to bring the Kingdom of Sikkim - that was then including Nepal east of Everest, Darjeeling, Kalimpong and Sikiguri - to its present situation of an Indian state poulated by a large majority of people of bepalese origin... world is complex and rarely nice
If you want to make the world nicer without understanting its complexities (and, of course, that people are dominated by kleshas) you may end up make it worst
There's a large agreement in the various Buddhist traditions, various trends of Greeks philosophy, Roman stoïcists, Christian philosphers (I'm thinking of René Descartes, or Blaise Pascal) on first trying ou best to uproot what we call here kleshas
Being angry against the world won't change it - or for worst

Sorry for being so long
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:38 pmsee how you deep you are (quite unvoluntarily) into cultural assimilation (and in terms of profit, strangely) what is "truly valuable about our heritage"?
I am sorry, what exactly are you saying? No idea where profit comes into anything I wrote about. And I am certainly not into any form of cultural assimilation.

When I write about our responsibilities, I mean this: We "Westerners" are responsible for what "Western" Vajrayana will be like in the future. And what it will be like in the future depends on which aspects of our "Western" heritage we find valuable, and therefore protect and preserve and use as a framework to make sense of Vajrayana.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by nyonchung »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:28 pm
nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:38 pmsee how you deep you are (quite unvoluntarily) into cultural assimilation (and in terms of profit, strangely) what is "truly valuable about our heritage"?
I am sorry, what exactly are you saying? No idea where profit comes into anything I wrote about. And I am certainly not into any form of cultural assimilation.

When I write about our responsibilities, I mean this: We "Westerners" are responsible for what "Western" Vajrayana will be like in the future. And what it will be like in the future depends on which aspects of our "Western" heritage we find valuable, and therefore protect and preserve and use as a framework to make sense of Vajrayana.
Thanks for your answered, I do understand better , and you precisley answere about what you exactly meant by "our heritage", who is this collective "we" that defines "valuable", this is still worth expanding since you have seriously reflected on the question with a quite open frame of mind.
But I guess you understand that we are in a world were "valuable" has almost lost any other sense than material (obviously not for you) - and you certainly do not intend to be into any form of cultural assimilation - but this is excatly what a cultural assimilation procees is: picking up elements from another culture ...

Specially seen from outside. Some Asians (when not too busy, like anybody, with their phones and twitter hands) may take it as being the usual cherrypicking: this is nice, this is not, WE take the nice part (for us) and condemn the reste as backward, if not immoral etc. and buzz off (again, most obviously, not your case) and this process goes since long, as you know. And took at times extremely violent forms.

Contrary to many around, your are sensible to the compex cultural or social factors involved.

But when you say "Western" Vajrayana, sounds a bit like that (seen from the "East") - Vajrayana still belongs largely to Tibetan/Bhutanese/Nepalese masters, and they still have their say ... including of what me may think on "our heritage". No?
My take is we have too go quite far in this tradition, with and enormous background in Western culture (if this still has a meaning)

Problem being that (as you - and Dzonsar Khyentsé - pointed) Asian countries are caught in a colonial and (pseudo) post-colonial deculturation process, with exiled Tibetans in a specially confused and confusing situation (we're into over 4 generations in exile) a young Tibetan born in exile is pretty far from what many Westerners fancy as "Tibetan culture" ... be they lamas or rinpochés (I'm familiar with Tibetans and Bhutanes since 40 years - the changes are enormous, and not always or the best)

A very uneasy situation

Regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:25 pm Vajrayana still belongs largely to Tibetan/Bhutanese/Nepalese masters
Strongly disagree.

The Vajrayāna belongs to the Dharmapālas, not any human being.

Tibetans, and so on, may continue to be the principle custodians of Vajrayāna for a while, but they don't own it.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:25 pmbut this is excatly what a cultural assimilation procees is: picking up elements from another culture
I am accustomed to a different understanding of cultural assimilation -- one in which the latter is about a directly or indirectly coercive relationship in which the hegemonic tradition eats up a minority tradition.

I had in mind not so much selective picking up of elements from another culture as the fact that to adopt Tibetan Buddhism one has to understand it, and understanding is interpreting, and interpretation is always done within the framework of one's own culture -- but that very framework is (thank God!) heterogeneous, and needs to be interpreted as well. But of course there will be some selection you mention occurring, too. When Dzongsar Khyentse urges people to "separate the Dharma from cultural trappings," he invites us to do just that. Copy-pasting is impossible, anyway, and even if it were possible, it would never work. For a TB practice to work, I have to make it something that speaks to me in a voice I can surrender to, and at the same time it has to be a voice that can change me.

I hope all such selection, just like all interpretation, is carried out as a conversation, and in the spirit of open-mindedness, humility and mutual respect. And I hope we continue interpreting and selecting, in the same spirit, so that those cultural translations which simply do not work are replaced with others.

I would also hope that we live up to the challenge, that is, meet the Other in such a way that we get surprised, and are changed in the process, and the change is, for the lack of a better word, benign.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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"The Vajrayāna belongs to the Dharmapālas, not any human being."
Well, it's under their care anf of dakinis, but where does stand the root-lama, supposed to be Vajradhara?

"Tibetans, and so on, may continue to be the principle custodians of Vajrayāna for a while, but they don't own it."
Stricto sensu, of course, but they're still a great majority of lineage holders, and, as such , certainly have their say about how to handle it and transmit it - this is what I mean
Even if, alas, mistakes or various mishaps happen due to causes and conditions in this present difficult situation (where Westerners have also their part of responsablity), started by a massive onslaught around 1950 (this in turns has causes etc.)

As for the "part of responsablity", I can only speak of French (European, the little I know about the America is western lamas, a few people I met while traveing) , I saw and heard interesting things in the 80s and had discussions with elder teachers on the way the envisioned things - that was often recorded (I think specially about Kalu Rinpoché) but everybody went one's way - not always for the best.

I had also long exchanges (almost 40 years back now) whith the late Hubert Decleer, an formidable scholar and a direct witness of the eraly interactions between Westerners and Tibetan Lamas, and the often strange aspects of this cultural exchange, with lots of quiproquos and reciprocate misunderstandings about the other presumed culture, intentions, etc.
That's probably common in the realm of cultural exchanges (adding that there always a material aspect to a cultural exchange if you don't want to fall into plain idealism), I coined the term "creative reciprocate misunderstanding"

Obviously, still running and possibly a valid concept

As fort Hubert Decleer who left us almost one year back
https://www.iats.info/2021/08/3426/
or
https://andrewquintman.com/in-memoriam- ... 1940-2021/
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by nyonchung »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:30 pm
nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:25 pmbut this is excatly what a cultural assimilation procees is: picking up elements from another culture
I am accustomed to a different understanding of cultural assimilation -- one in which the latter is about a directly or indirectly coercive relationship in which the hegemonic tradition eats up a minority tradition.

I had in mind not so much selective picking up of elements from another culture as the fact that to adopt Tibetan Buddhism one has to understand it, and understanding is interpreting, and interpretation is always done within the framework of one's own culture -- but that very framework is (thank God!) heterogeneous, and needs to be interpreted as well. But of course there will be some selection you mention occurring, too. When Dzongsar Khyentse urges people to "separate the Dharma from cultural trappings," he invites us to do just that. Copy-pasting is impossible, anyway, and even if it were possible, it would never work. For a TB practice to work, I have to make it something that speaks to me in a voice I can surrender to, and at the same time it has to be a voice that can change me.

I hope all such selection, just like all interpretation, is carried out as a conversation, and in the spirit of open-mindedness, humility and mutual respect. And I hope we continue interpreting and selecting, in the same spirit, so that those cultural translations which simply do not work are replaced with others.

I would also hope that we live up to the challenge, that is, meet the Other in such a way that we get surprised, and are changed in the process, and the change is, for the lack of a better word, benign.
First, sorry for typos, I have a pretty bad eyesight

Next, thanks for amplifying, since you obviously considered the question (quite rare) and in quite thoughtful way
Never forget, that "the West", were we belong, with is immense material power, military might, softpower, control of social, networks etc.. is definitely "the hegemonic tradition", but I think you understand that (even if you're not so happy of many aspects of thes hegemony, it's here), and that we have to factor it in the relationship process

As for Dzongsar Khyentsé, I was thinking to his letter to Aung San Suu Kyi, a letter who p.d off considerably one of my best friend and excellent translator, plus this was at the height of the Sogyal controversy - the latter case, not at case of "creative reciprocate misunderstanding" but of a "destructive" one

Can't find the url

Oh, the "Other", this a late Christian approach (why not), still this has to be worked out

Regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:29 pmNever forget, that "the West", were we belong, with is immense material power, military might, softpower, control of social, networks etc.. is definitely "the hegemonic tradition", but I think you understand that (even if you're not so happy of many aspects of thes hegemony, it's here), and that we have to factor it in the relationship process
Yes, it is absolutely true. On the other hand, "Western" Vajrayana institutions are not just a marginal thing, but a thing that recruits many, possibly mostly, people that are cast out by the Western mainstream, for one reason or another (and does so before they become Buddhists). We may be as close to a counterculture as anything these days. Which does not mean we do not belong to the hegemony, naturally.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:09 pm "The Vajrayāna belongs to the Dharmapālas, not any human being."

Well, it's under their care anf of dakinis, but where does stand the root-lama, supposed to be Vajradhara?
That person is only Vajradhara for you, not for everyone.
"Tibetans, and so on, may continue to be the principle custodians of Vajrayāna for a while, but they don't own it."
Stricto sensu, of course, but they're still a great majority of lineage holders, and, as such , certainly have their say about how to handle it and transmit it - this is what I mean
"Lineage holders" are anyone who has received the transmission, does the retreats, etc. The main reason why these things remain in the hands of Tibetans is due to the lack of translation of empowerment manuals and so on into English. I don't imagine Tibetans will be out of the picture for a long while, but they do not own Vajrayāna Dharma. There was no Kagyu, Sakya, Nyingma, etc. in India or Central Asia.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

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nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:29 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:30 pm
nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:25 pmbut this is excatly what a cultural assimilation procees is: picking up elements from another culture
I am accustomed to a different understanding of cultural assimilation -- one in which the latter is about a directly or indirectly coercive relationship in which the hegemonic tradition eats up a minority tradition.

I had in mind not so much selective picking up of elements from another culture as the fact that to adopt Tibetan Buddhism one has to understand it, and understanding is interpreting, and interpretation is always done within the framework of one's own culture -- but that very framework is (thank God!) heterogeneous, and needs to be interpreted as well. But of course there will be some selection you mention occurring, too. When Dzongsar Khyentse urges people to "separate the Dharma from cultural trappings," he invites us to do just that. Copy-pasting is impossible, anyway, and even if it were possible, it would never work. For a TB practice to work, I have to make it something that speaks to me in a voice I can surrender to, and at the same time it has to be a voice that can change me.

I hope all such selection, just like all interpretation, is carried out as a conversation, and in the spirit of open-mindedness, humility and mutual respect. And I hope we continue interpreting and selecting, in the same spirit, so that those cultural translations which simply do not work are replaced with others.

I would also hope that we live up to the challenge, that is, meet the Other in such a way that we get surprised, and are changed in the process, and the change is, for the lack of a better word, benign.
First, sorry for typos, I have a pretty bad eyesight

Next, thanks for amplifying, since you obviously considered the question (quite rare) and in quite thoughtful way
Never forget, that "the West", were we belong, with is immense material power, military might, softpower, control of social, networks etc.. is definitely "the hegemonic tradition", but I think you understand that (even if you're not so happy of many aspects of thes hegemony, it's here), and that we have to factor it in the relationship process

As for Dzongsar Khyentsé, I was thinking to his letter to Aung San Suu Kyi, a letter who p.d off considerably one of my best friend and excellent translator, plus this was at the height of the Sogyal controversy - the latter case, not at case of "creative reciprocate misunderstanding" but of a "destructive" one

Can't find the url

Oh, the "Other", this a late Christian approach (why not), still this has to be worked out

Regards
Like there’s no history of colonization or hegemony in Asia without “The West”. Gimme a break, of course there’s truth in what you say, but Asian cultures, societies, social movement, etc. have their own collective obscurations too. That should be a base understanding for this whole conversation.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

The idea of any expression of Dharma being a cultural property of this or that self-identified ethnic group is just absurd on the face of it. Reality is not ownable. It wouldn’t work like that even if we wanted it to.

I’m assuming we can all agree on that.

That’s not to brush aside concerns about colonial appropriation etc., of course.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by nyonchung »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:17 pm The idea of any expression of Dharma being a self-identified ethnic groupof this or that self-identified ethnic group is just absurd on the face of it. Reality is not ownable. It wouldn’t work like that even if we wanted it to.

I’m assuming we can all agree on that.

That’s not to brush aside concerns about colonial appropriation etc., of course.
"cultural property of this or that self-identified ethnic group", what? this is their language, over 1200 years of transmissions, study, practice, spelnedid art produced in extremely difficult material conditions, etc. yes there are legitimate lineages holders rightly inheritingall this, but not only them, but the large mass of the faithful. Few managed to escaped their land now under strict control by a country that very precisely denies the "self-identified ethnic group" the right have any "cultural property " beside interesting folksongs, dances, and clothing ... for the benefit of domestic tourism.
"Self-identified ethnic group", is just newspeak (or pseudo-scientific postmodernism) for "indigenous people" or "natives" and nothing else.

You may to have the greatest reasons in the world: "Reality is not ownable", if this is meaning anything, but the actual meaning is:
WE can appropriate the thing that indigenous people owe, for the good reason that they cannot be the real owners, since is somehow of interest to US (WE are much more important than any "self-identified ethnic group")

Colonial appropriation of lands, mineral sources etc. is based on such deligitimation
Again, if not colonialist (take a close look) how to qualify is the dismissive use "self-identified ethnic group" for a complete culture and civilization ...
Who is the "WE"? who assumes it's more legitimate than a "self-identified ethnic"?

Concerning Dharma (Tibetan or else), there is long and consistent historical trend of thinking in the West, based on the same sense of inborn moral superiority, taht inform colonialism, that this is a beautiful thing that should not be left in the hands of" natives", who, anyway, never even understood it properly.
You may think yourself "post-colonial", why not

Regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Malcolm »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:29 pm
WE can appropriate the thing that indigenous people owe, for the good reason that they cannot be the real owners, since is somehow of interest to US
The Dharma is not "indigenous" to Tibet, not even after 1400 years. Tibetans are an indigenous people with an intrinsically valuable culture, language, art, and music. By the same token, being at the crossroads of Central Asia, they have absorbed cultural influences from Persia, Byzantium, India, China, and so on. Tibetans have done such a good job of forgetting their own indigenous, pre-Buddhist history, their indigenous civilization can only be caught in glimpses.

The Buddha himself enjoined that the Dharma be taught in the vernacular language of people interested in the Dharma: this is why we have Dharma texts in Tocharian, Sassanian, Chinese, Tibetan, Pali, Drusha, Ghandaran, etc.

The international character of Dharma is evident from it earliest days.

There is long and consistent historical trend of thinking in the West, based on the same sense of inborn moral superiority, taht inform colonialism, that this is a beautiful thing that should not be left in the hands of" natives", who, anyway, never even understood it properly.
I don't think anyone is making such an argument in this thread.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

nyonchung wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:29 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:17 pm The idea of any expression of Dharma being a self-identified ethnic groupof this or that self-identified ethnic group is just absurd on the face of it. Reality is not ownable. It wouldn’t work like that even if we wanted it to.

I’m assuming we can all agree on that.

That’s not to brush aside concerns about colonial appropriation etc., of course.
"cultural property of this or that self-identified ethnic group", what? this is their language, over 1200 years of transmissions, study, practice, spelnedid art produced in extremely difficult material conditions, etc. yes there are legitimate lineages holders rightly inheritingall this, but not only them, but the large mass of the faithful. Few managed to escaped their land now under strict control by a country that very precisely denies the "self-identified ethnic group" the right have any "cultural property " beside interesting folksongs, dances, and clothing ... for the benefit of domestic tourism.
"Self-identified ethnic group", is just newspeak (or pseudo-scientific postmodernism) for "indigenous people" or "natives" and nothing else.

You may to have the greatest reasons in the world: "Reality is not ownable", if this is meaning anything, but the actual meaning is:
WE can appropriate the thing that indigenous people owe, for the good reason that they cannot be the real owners, since is somehow of interest to US (WE are much more important than any "self-identified ethnic group")

Colonial appropriation of lands, mineral sources etc. is based on such deligitimation
Again, if not colonialist (take a close look) how to qualify is the dismissive use "self-identified ethnic group" for a complete culture and civilization ...
Who is the "WE"? who assumes it's more legitimate than a "self-identified ethnic"?

Concerning Dharma (Tibetan or else), there is long and consistent historical trend of thinking in the West, based on the same sense of inborn moral superiority, taht inform colonialism, that this is a beautiful thing that should not be left in the hands of" natives", who, anyway, never even understood it properly.
You may think yourself "post-colonial", why not

Regards
How do you determine when someone is being “colonial” in their view of the Dharma, and when criticism is legitimate?

I am sure in your long history in Dharma, you have met Tibetans with a profound grasp or dispensation of Dharma, and probably also some who were less invested in really seeking it, despite growing up in it.

This is a common and known thing, and there similar examples in other religions, such as Catholics who Just go through the motions, etc.

So, what I am saying is that there is nothing special about being a Tibetan that leads to actually pursuing mar developing insight into Dhara, other than of course growing up around it and being immersed in the language and lineages, and therefore lacking the barriers the vast majority of Westerners have.

This lack of barrier in no way means that being Tibetan magically makes a person understand Dharma, of course yes being connected to the lineages makes it much more likely and less difficult for those that make the effort.

Beyond that I think the fact that the Tibetans preserved and continued developing an Indian tradition is enough to make my point, that no one actually owns Dharma, they contribute to it.

Sure, we could always be thinking with unconscious colonial biases or something, but there is no point in debating that which cannot be identified. So, unless you can point out a specific example of this in the conversation, it serves no purpose.

If it was my wording then I can find different wording. Even my Tibetan teachers have talked about Dharma dispensation vs. more specific Tibetan cultural concerns, so I not sure how a person can raise objections or discuss these thing without the vague ‘colonial’ labeling you seem to be attempting with my words.

I’d suggest you describe this in better detail, or drop it as a productive direction for the discussion. Obviously I do not think of myself as ‘above the natives’ or whatever, and do not see myself as having any special understanding. To the contrary, I am somewhat of an outsider to mainstream US culture, I am a complete nobody as far as Dharma myself, and and I interact directly and indirectly with Tibetan teachers who I consider my highest authorities wrt to Dharma. So, I am not sure I quite understand what you are trying to say.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by nyonchung »

"I am sure in your long history in Dharma, you have met Tibetans with a profound grasp or dispensation of Dharma, and probably also some who were less invested in really seeking it, despite growing up in it."

I'll make a distinction between
- lineage-holders
- people with a high degree of responsability: tülkus,khenpos, geshés, retreat masters...
- doctors (emchis)
- (in rank) lamas who did only one retreat (as many were sent in France)
- monks and nuns, ngagpas, dedicated practitioners

and I'll make a difference between generations
I was lucky to meet people of the same generation as my grand-parents (around 1900), of all these categories, classes, either in exile, in Tibet, among other Himalayan places (Ladakh, Dölpo, Sherpa, Sikkim, Bhutan) and even ordinary people often had a deep connection to Dharma, age-old Dharma relations (an a few imperfect people, as Kalu Rinpoché side, there's no great diffrence between Tibetans and Westerners, they all have kleshas ...but, (due to the respect for Dharma) one great thing, it was easy to lead a life of practice, you'll always find people,ready to give -

most Tibetans did their best to reorganize their broken communities in exile, there was an extraordinary effort (difficult to imagine the precarious conditions in 1970 in Darjeeling) generally speaking this is remarkable (and thanks to those who provided help)

but some (monks and lay) really freaked out and turned bad - but few; One (late) Dharama frien and one the first karama-kagyü monks tols me that people noted that some monks and lamas had bad discipline - the Karmapa said, of course I know, but the shock of exile was so great, that when myself have hard times to reorient them - in Tibet this won't have happen, or they would have been kicked out .. (this was 1975 or so)
But, not without difficulties, new institutions reappered, functional, offering a necessary space
Tibetans, master included have no control on general disturbing conditions around, Trangu Rinpoché leavec Bodhnath saying, my monks spend their life in the bazar - temptations you didn't have in Trangu gompa up in Yushül

I mentioned elsewhere the desperate situation of the 70s, with the impression that we're in a similar situation now
I mentioned the mutual misunderstanding, West as a sort of materiel where maybe Vinaya rules are suspended (dakinis galore) but the opposite is true, Westerner thinking that every lama is a Buddha of sort ... takes time and great patience (with little effect)

the pace of rebuilding in Tibet istself around 1986/8 was extraordinary, with a considerable number of people rebuilding with few means, reinstauring the teaching and practice of Dharma

meanwhile other Himalayans went also attracted to our way of life (NY has now more Sherpas than Kathmandu, villages empty) but the younger generation (my wife's nieces and nephews for instance) reconnected with their grand parents traditionnal faith (and Tibetan literacy) - and often remarkable and steady practice - they spend their last years in retreat - this strong revival is due to Tibetan teachers (Dzatrul Rinpoché etc...)

Alrealy pretty long
As for my root teachers they dedicated their lives to teaching, helping people whoever they are , without caring for their own, health, really up to their last breath (Kalu Rinpoché, Tenga Rinpoché, I met Dezhung Rinpoché in his last days, Bokar Rinpoché died brutally, probably exhausted)
All managed to restart institutions, train people (oh, and Trangu Rinpoché, and Trülzhig Rinpoché!)
As did teachers of my generation , who like Situ Rinpoché reconstituted fully the Palpung traditions - Tenga Rinpoché revived (he had all the lineages) all karma-kagyü mandala traditions (from Karma'i Khenpo), received hundred of lung, kekeping his best students in perfect situation or long term practice
He inlassably taught individually hundred of Western students (in sometimes quite advanced teaching)

My great admiration goes also to doctors like the late Amchi Künzang and his students

The problems I witnessed were with the bottom of the list , and due to economic disparity and, again, intercultural problems (with Westerners, but also with Indians, Nepalese, Taiwanese - forget China) - Tibetans in India are lost in a quite hostile environment (something we are generaly not aware of)

I'm modest enough to think that not only the teachers I mentioned and those I met briefly (Dilgo Khyentsé, the extraordinary sons of Orgyen Tülku), but so many others showed the same determination and the same selflessness in all schools, according to the circumstances, allowing this miraculous (same in Tibet), 1400 years of practice and accumulated merits have certainly a role in this

allthose who did khenpo studies, plus a few retrets, and stay quietly, teaching the younger generations
yes problems happen, largely due the present conditions - I did my best at a time to have uprooted (this is the world) Bhutanese lamas to understand better this world - and to have Frenchies try to understandthat their expectations are possibly strange - difficult I tell you

- as for "invested in really seeking it, despite growing up in it." this does exist, existed in Tibet itself and largely, but they have the capacity, when sent back to practice, they can use a lot of elements they have "in store"
Our present surroundings frankly don't help but as in any human societies you have all kind of beings - we're almost all far from perfect - but the presence on a long historical of excellent teachers give s formidale reste , in the middle of the ups and down of history - this was (and still is in great part) a society were Dharma was the main goal, and the central cultural value, radiating maya aspects (a thought also for painters)

So as a society, for all the drawbacks (and I don't beliebve in ideal societies), not bad, simple if even rude at times
I'm deeply grateful to my personnel teachers, but also to this whole collective efforts (pity those who failed) and on such a long period of time , often in extremely difficult times (Tibet's history is not exactly a bed of roses)

Regards
"Me and the sky don't hold views - Me and the river have no fixed practice
Me and the madman don't have a guide- Me and the rainbow have no experiences
Me, the sun and the moon have no certitudes - Me and the jewel bear no fruit" - Dampa Sanggyé as quoted by Domar Mingyur Dorjé (born 1675)
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

I have to express my gratitude to the depth and breadth of knowledge, first hand experience, and historical insights you're all sharing regarding assimilation, colonialism and post colonialism, the diaspora of the Tibetan people, whether and to what degree anything of Dharma "belongs" to anybody;

but at this point the conversation has become extremely diffuse and scattered. I don't actually think there are that profound of disagreements among anybody here, and if there are any nuanced quibbles they are not really about whether the Dharma has any owners (we know it "belongs to whomever has the most endeavor"), nor if we should have a sense of reverence for the Tibetans who suffered and strived so hard to bring the teachings to the West.

If I had to refocus with some new questions, I'd ask :

1. What practical and material changes do you wish would occur in western Sanghas as a result of the insights and opinions you hold?
2. Who are the teachers who seem most amenable to such changes? Who are the teachers who seem to genuinely understand the need for said changes?
3. Are there any lineage holders of the Rime schools who are well-educated in Western philosophy as well as the monastic curriculum? The dearth of such overlap is really sad--especially after having studied Deleuze/Guattari, Hegel, Spinoza, and even classical thinkers like Zeno, the more convinced I am that basically our Tibetan teachers have NO idea that there really are some ideas OUTSIDE of Medieval India that converse incredibly well with the Dharma.
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by jmlee369 »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:46 am I have to express my gratitude to the depth and breadth of knowledge, first hand experience, and historical insights you're all sharing regarding assimilation, colonialism and post colonialism, the diaspora of the Tibetan people, whether and to what degree anything of Dharma "belongs" to anybody;

but at this point the conversation has become extremely diffuse and scattered. I don't actually think there are that profound of disagreements among anybody here, and if there are any nuanced quibbles they are not really about whether the Dharma has any owners (we know it "belongs to whomever has the most endeavor"), nor if we should have a sense of reverence for the Tibetans who suffered and strived so hard to bring the teachings to the West.

If I had to refocus with some new questions, I'd ask :

1. What practical and material changes do you wish would occur in western Sanghas as a result of the insights and opinions you hold?
2. Who are the teachers who seem most amenable to such changes? Who are the teachers who seem to genuinely understand the need for said changes?
3. Are there any lineage holders of the Rime schools who are well-educated in Western philosophy as well as the monastic curriculum? The dearth of such overlap is really sad--especially after having studied Deleuze/Guattari, Hegel, Spinoza, and even classical thinkers like Zeno, the more convinced I am that basically our Tibetan teachers have NO idea that there really are some ideas OUTSIDE of Medieval India that converse incredibly well with the Dharma.
My answers are probably inadequate for the gravity of your concerns and situation, but thought I'd pitch in my two cents.

1. Shift to a more classroom learning style method (not unlike the ways philosophical studies are sometimes done) rather than formal teachings with transmissions, thrones, etc. I think Maitripa College (and Dharma Realm Buddhist University, although they are not Tibetan) is nudging things towards that way with their degrees. But even less institutionalised, things like book clubs and discussion groups can be useful if the base material people are working with is reliable. I say this with His Holiness the Dalai Lama's advice to practitioners who have left a certain group in mind, about how they can return to Buddhist study and practice after their traumatic experience: "Still, pay attention to the four reliances: depend not on the person, but on the teaching. Depend not on the words, but their meaning. Depend not on the provisional meaning, but the definitive meaning and finally depend not on a superficial understanding but on wisdom. Read books, gather your friends together and discuss what you’ve learned. Give each other confidence. I admire your courage. Believe in truth and the Buddha’s authentic teachings." He also encouraged a group of lay Indian Buddhists (if I remember correctly) during one of his pandemic livestream teachings that by studying the classics of masters like Nagarjuna etc directly, they could even get a better understanding than that of monks studying philosophy in the monasteries.

2. I'm sure there are very many teachers out there who fit the bill but the two examples that stand out in my mind, Traleg Rinpoche and Lama Thubten Yeshe, have already passed.

3. Again, this says more about who and what I know, but Lama Yeshe studied at least a little bit some of the classical thinkers. Elijah Ary is not a lineage holder (at least I don't think he considers himself to be one, he currently only teaches basic meditation), but he is a Canadian tulku who studied the traditional curriculum at Sera Jey for some years before going on to university in the West and getting a PhD. Maybe closer to your thinking is Karma Trinlay Rinpoche, a French-American tulku and active lineage holder in Karmapa Thaye Dorje's tradition. He has studied philosophy, the humanities, and Tibetology at the Sorbonne. I don't have any personal experience with these teachers though,
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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Nilasarasvati wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:46 am I have to express my gratitude to the depth and breadth of knowledge, first hand experience, and historical insights you're all sharing regarding assimilation, colonialism and post colonialism, the diaspora of the Tibetan people, whether and to what degree anything of Dharma "belongs" to anybody;

but at this point the conversation has become extremely diffuse and scattered. I don't actually think there are that profound of disagreements among anybody here, and if there are any nuanced quibbles they are not really about whether the Dharma has any owners (we know it "belongs to whomever has the most endeavor"), nor if we should have a sense of reverence for the Tibetans who suffered and strived so hard to bring the teachings to the West.

If I had to refocus with some new questions, I'd ask :

1. What practical and material changes do you wish would occur in western Sanghas as a result of the insights and opinions you hold?
2. Who are the teachers who seem most amenable to such changes? Who are the teachers who seem to genuinely understand the need for said changes?
3. Are there any lineage holders of the Rime schools who are well-educated in Western philosophy as well as the monastic curriculum? The dearth of such overlap is really sad--especially after having studied Deleuze/Guattari, Hegel, Spinoza, and even classical thinkers like Zeno, the more convinced I am that basically our Tibetan teachers have NO idea that there really are some ideas OUTSIDE of Medieval India that converse incredibly well with the Dharma.
1) I don’t know, minus some minor gripes I am happy with mine. I don’t feel like most of the problems with various Western sangha are specific to Vajrayana, Buddhism, or even religion really. They are larger problems specific to this cultural time and place, economics, etc. This includes institutional abuse, Which unfortunately exists all over.

2) IDK, I feel like we would have to have more answers to 1) before we could answer 2). I mean, fundamentally we don’t have a choice in things changing, but we’d have to know what changes we are talking about before figuring out which teachers support them.

3) I’m gonna guess it’s mostly Westerners in this camp, BAW comes to mind. I do recall that Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche was not only conversant but (maybe?) had a degree in Western Philosophy. Too bad he is gone. I feel like more teachers I’ve met are interested in psychology than philosophy, though of course there is huge overlap there.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Crisis of a Faith, returning to dharma, and new directions.

Post by Nilasarasvati »

3) I’m gonna guess it’s mostly Westerners in this camp, BAW comes to mind. I do recall that Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche was not only conversant but (maybe?) had a degree in Western Philosophy. Too bad he is gone. I feel like more teachers I’ve met are interested in psychology than philosophy, though of course there is huge overlap there.


Sorry, who is BAW?
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